We will not go down

[Mungler]

LOL

 

Nothing to see here.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Mungler

[Trussman]

As for being brainwashed, it's called having an opinion. My parents are both anti-zionist, and as a child I knew their stance on the subject, yet I am old enough now to have my own views on the subject.

[The original sad lad]

This is a very enjoyable thread,from somebody who is very uneducated on this subject i have learnt more than watching any news program.

[RhiannonBW]

I like to work in metaphors.

 

To me it seems like there are two children at the same school, one in the 6th form and one in the first year. Both children badly abused up until the age of 6/7.

 

After the age of 7 the 6th Former (representing Israel) is taken under the wing of the Headmaster (USA) and grows strong, powerful and also into something of a bully, picking on the younger child (Palestine). The younger child, being abused and damaged, fights back, so the 6th Former decides to teach him a lesson, a few slaps here, a few slaps there. Rather than backing off, the 7 year old child kicks the 6th Former in the shins. At this point the 6th Former slaps back breaking the 7 year old's arm and maybe killing his pet hamster, all the time knowing that the Headmaster will defend him and support him.

 

It's not a perfect analogy, but it must be remembered that the aggressors are Israel. That children are dying is terrible, but just as we would encourage the 6th Former not to escalate the aggression at school, so we should try and get Israel, who are the bully here, to find other solutions. This is not a war of equals.

 

My memory is a little hazy, but in the first Gulf War, when Hussein was trying to drag Israel into the fight, wasn't some sort of rocket defence system being used to avoid rockets fired landing on Israel soil? How come that same defence system isn't being used now?

 

Rhiannon

[Zapp]

My memory is a little hazy, but in the first Gulf War, when Hussein was trying to drag Israel into the fight, wasn't some sort of rocket defence system being used to avoid rockets fired landing on Israel soil? How come that same defence system isn't being used now?

 

Rhiannon

 

I'm not going to get involved on the rest of the argument, but the missile defence system was "Patriot" and it isnt being used because it is rubbish.

 

The much-vaunted "Scud buster" "intercepts" during the first gulf war were actually chunks of Scud rocket motor body getting blown up by Patriot rather than the actual warheads (Scuds tend to break up under the strain of the g-forces as they roll over and begin their dive), because the radar could not distinguish between the fragments. The warheads got through, and what we saw in the news was our own propaganda machine telling us that it was a warhead intercept.

 

The Israelis have their own interceptor missile system now (ARROW), but both this and Patriot are Anti Tactical Ballistic Missile (or ATBM) systems. It is worth pointing out though that intercepting a Tactical or short-range Ballistic Missile such as Scud (the apogee of which tends to be in kilometers, flight time in minutes) and intercepting a garage-built weaponised rocket (apogee on or very near the radar horizon, flight time in seconds) are two totally different things, which is why we arent seeing ARROW batteries doing the biz on the news.

 

 

ZB

Edited January 15, 2009 by Zapp Brannigan

[RhiannonBW]

Hi Zapp

 

Thanks for the info. I thought it might be something like that, and bow down to your superior knowledge.

 

Rhiannon

[Jonno243]

He condones the firing of rockets into Israel. Those rockets are sent to kill Jews.

 

 

I agree with you, he has catagorically stated that he believes them to be justified. That is his opinion and he is entitled to it.

 

However, there are other members who have posted on this thread stating their support for Israel regardless of their actions, and in particular that Israel should take over Palestine completely and eradicate any resistance to their (American funded) superiority. In common parlance this is known as genocide. And is apparently condoned by some.

 

To paraphrase your quote above: Those missiles / artillery shells / helicopter gunships / tanks / mortars / fighter bombers are sent to kill Palestinians.

[dazza]

I agree with you, he has catagorically stated that he believes them to be justified. That is his opinion and he is entitled to it.

 

However, there are other members who have posted on this thread stating their support for Israel regardless of their actions, and in particular that Israel should take over Palestine completely and eradicate any resistance to their (American funded) superiority. In common parlance this is known as genocide. And is apparently condoned by some.

 

To paraphrase your quote above: Those missiles / artillery shells / helicopter gunships / tanks / mortars / fighter bombers are sent to kill Palestinians.

 

So if Hamas stop firing the rockets into Israel to kill Israeli citizens then Israel won't need to send the

missiles / artillery shells / helicopter gunships / tanks / mortars / fighter bombers.

[Mungler]

It's all nonsense and yes the involvement of the USA has completely screwed the region.

 

This thread has been an interesting recap on history and it has been pointed out the US has funded and backed just about every Country in the region at some point in time, leaving aside the funding and backing of Israel.

 

Historic US foreign policy in this region is at best less than straightforward - when the Ruskies weren't flavour of the month Bin Laden and the Taleban were armed and funded by the US and when Iran was near the top of the naughty list Saddam was armed and funded. I think even the likes of Libya got funded and armed at some point. Anyhows, you can't have a sustainable foreign policy based on my enemy's enemy is my friend.

[Blackbart]

Yes I do, the people in the illegal settlements should not be there and they are at war with them.

 

Every Israeli citizen is trained to use arms.

 

If you would indulge me a moment, please, I would be most grateful, and it would also give you an idea of where I am coming from.

 

And all those who think Israel is in the right, you certainly need to read this and consider it.

 

This is also a serious side to this debate, so no English, Scots, etc jokes on my scenario please, I can see them already thank you

 

Here we go............

 

Lets say the French or any nationality came to England in numbers, and then started a terrorist campaign against the English in a bid to take over our land. Then once they had been given some of that land by the UN, they were armed to the teeth by the USA - they then started to steal more of England, wiping villages off the map and building new settlements, diverting our water supplies onto their land and pilling all their waste on ours.

 

They then used their huge arsenal, given to them by the US, to beat down the Scots, Welsh and Irish as they tried to come to our aid, with the US rendering them useless or calling them Terrorists if they tried to help us, but the French just carried on fighting the English and Scots etc if they tried to come to our aid, and carried on annexing more land.

 

What would I do in such a scenario ?

 

I sure as hell would fight the French and the Americans, and I would want to kill every one of the French invaders of our land.

 

What would you do ?

 

Would you just lay down and let the French take over ?

 

Now transpose that to the 1940's in Palestine and the arrival of hundreds of thousands of Zionist Jews from Europe and America, all with the belief that the land really belongs to them and they want it all, when in fact they have no right to it whatsoever.

 

But after very fortunately being given that land, they then start the scenario above with the French over the English and the rest of the Union, then we get what we have today in modern Palestine and the Arab peoples whose land it belongs to.

 

Zionism is greed, it's also racist and has driven the Jews to be a Nazi-like race of people in order to obtain the goals of Zionism.

 

Quite disgusting really, especially after what happened to the Jews under Hitler's Nazi Germany.

 

If Israel wants to exist in peace, the only chance they have is to take what the the Arab League offered them two or three years ago, of full recognition of Israel and to reign in groups like Hamas and Hizbollah, but only if they pull back to the 1967 borders and vacate the illegal settlements.

 

Give them to the Palestinians as a good will gesture, it would be a small price to pay for peace.

 

They must then either absorb all the brainwashed extremist Zionist settlers, or send them back to Eastern Europe or America where they came from.

 

This is the only realistic chance Israel will ever have of Peace, they should embrace it, and think themselves very lucky to get it, because if they carry on the way they are it will lead to only one thing - no end to the wars and ultimately another Jewish Holocaust, and nobody wants to see that again.

 

This is how I get my stance on Zionism, not Jews, I do it with facts and putting myself in the position of the Palestinians, and what I would do if it were me.

 

Thank you if you got this far.

 

There you go,you have shown your true colours in the first sentence

 

You believe that the killing of israeli children is jusified because they shouldnt be living there !

 

I think that shows you up for the twisted individual that you are and makes your argument not worthy of listening to.

 

The killing of children on either side is not, nor never will be justified and you my friend are very wrong.

[jimdfish]

according to you hamas are at war and as such it is ok to send in rockets indiscriminately. Israel are at war with hamas and so it should be okay for them to bomb indiscriminately too?

The fact that the israelis have bombed a UN compound is not going to help though.

Jim

[Jonno243]

So if Hamas stop firing the rockets into Israel to kill Israeli citizens then Israel won't need to send the

missiles / artillery shells / helicopter gunships / tanks / mortars / fighter bombers.

 

I couldn't agree more. You could further argue that if Israel were to withdraw from the occupied territories then the rocket attacks would stop. How far back do you go?

 

I am certainly no supporter of Hamas, or their tactics, BUT they are attacking what they see as an invading and repressive force (this is not me attempting to justify their actions, it is simply a statement of fact). Israel are attacking in defense of their people, people who are living in occupied territory (again, a statement of fact)

 

Imagine if you will what the international community would have said or done if the British Army had launched artillery strikes on Belfast every time a squaddie was shot and killed. What resolutions would the UN have passed if Tornado bombers had pasted Derry every time a bomb went off? The situation has similarities.

 

My opinion is that Israel does have the right to defend itself, but they have taken that right far beyond what is reasonable. However, opinions are as individual as people themselves. It is not up to another to decide if my opinion is right or wrong, only that it may be different from their own.

[Flashman]

I believe this tread stopped being a discussion and turned into a mentalist blog last night, so there's no point in commenting on the rubbish being spouted.

 

I noticed two more Royal Marines were killed today, in action against a Islamist fundamentalist group who think nothing of maiming their own women for being western enough to not wear a veil and use suicide bombers: do you see any similarities here?

 

I can't help but think what happens to the residents of Gaza pales into insignificance to the loss being felt by the families of those and the other 139 British dead.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Flashman

[JohnGalway]

How many pages until we hear mention of Moses or even the Pharohs I wonder?

 

This thread has very little point, besides the folks (me included thank God/Allah/Budda/etc.) watching other folks get wound up about it. What's even more amusing is how the more entrenched people get the less they listen to each other, nevermind the fact that opinions held on the subject beforehand weren't going to be changed by this thread in the first instance.

 

Now, I'm off to invade a Baileys cheesecake, so please continue

[Chard]

Now, I'm off to invade a Baileys cheesecake, so please continue

 

Do you have an exit strategy?

[JohnGalway]

Do you have an exit strategy?

 

Yes, it's messy but I'm pretty sure it'll work

[shot shot]

I'm from Northern Ireland, so I'm steering well clear of rights and wrongs here. However, I do beleive the UN should have properly intervened weeks ago.

That cheesecake sounds good though

[Santlache]

I noticed two more Royal Marines were killed today, in action against a Islamist fundamentalist group who think nothing of maiming their own women for being western enough to not wear a veil and use suicide bombers: do you see any similarities here?

 

I can't help but think what happens to the residents of Gaza pales into insignificance to the loss being felt by the families of those and the other 139 British dead.

 

So let me get this correct,you think we in the West love our children and our families more than the Arabs and people of Gaza, and we hurt more at our loss than they do ?

 

If that is what you mean then I have never heard such a load of rubbish in all my life.

 

Those Islamic Fundamentalists you mention who are killing British soldiers in Afghanistan, are the very same people the US funded with millions of dollars worth of arms during the Russian Afghan War. It's also a know fact that they were given quite a few stinger ground to air missiles which have never been accounted for, although I somehow suspect if they were still out there they would have been used by now on a British or American aircraft.

[Santlache]

The killing of children on either side is not, nor never will be justified and you my friend are very wrong.

 

 

And you, Sir, are still a coward.

[J@mes]

well I think you are in for the "longest thread that's controversial but hasn't been closed" award!

[death from below]

I like cheesecake

 

That's my angle on the strife over there anyway

[Blackbart]

And you, Sir, are still a coward.

 

 

How am i a coward......Because i dont believe in killing children, like you do because they live in the wrong place ?

 

Or is there some other reason in that twisted ****** up mind of yours ?

[kdubya]

santlache

 

try reading this its from someone who knows what they are talking about

 

Sami Alrabaa: Hamas prefers war as an alternative to progress

Posted: January 12, 2009, 12:30 PM by Kelly McParland

 

Full Comment

"The occupation of Iraq and the rise of Islamism have provided Arab regimes with new opportunities to defer socio-political reforms"

 

 

By Sami Alrabaa

 

 

Once again some of us Arabs are as usual in a big mess. The Islamist extremist group Hamas, which came to power in 2006 through an un-Islamic political process, namely democratic election, has since hijacked Gaza, established its rocket factories in residential areas, in bunkers under mosques, schools and hospitals. Over the past three years, the Hamas jihadis and their affiliates have frequently targeted their Kassam rockets at residential areas in Israel. Even during the ceasefire brokered by Egypt in 2008, Hamas shot their rockets at Israel. On top of all these, Hamas, like the PLO before the Oslo Accords, rejects the existence of Israel, a UN member state. Its ultimate aim is liberating all Palestine, which includes Israel, by wiping out the Jewish state from the world map and possibly by genocidal massacre or deportation of all Jewish people.

 

The “struggle†of Hamas is backed by Islamists across the globe, by state-controlled media of the Arab world, and by one-eyed anti-war campaigners in the West. Ban Ki-Moon, the Secretary General of the UN, has condemned the latest Israeli military operations in Gaza as “disproportionateâ€.

 

All these organizations and groups have voraciously consumed the Hamas propaganda; they allege that the Israeli blockade has caused abject misery in Gaza, people there are starving. Some compare Gaza to a huge prison, to Holocaust. But who is to blame for all this calamity?

 

Israeli politicians have repeatedly stated that once Hamas stops its terrorist activities and launching of missiles, the blockade would be lifted. The Israeli cabinet even approved aid convoys into Gaza despite Hamas’ continued shooting rockets. The Hamas leadership ignored such conciliatory Israeli gestures and carried on the rocket-attacks on residential areas in Israel.

 

We Arabs are very good at twisting facts and exaggerating them, when it suits us. Mustafa Barghouthi, a Fatah activist, told CNN that “It was Israel which broke the ceasefire with Hamas.†Buthaina Sha’ban, a Syrian cabinet minister, called the recent Israeli attacks on Hamas’ military targets “the most atrocious Holocaust in the history of mankindâ€

 

We Arabs also prefer to be mystical, wishful rather than realistic. Waleed Al Tabtaba’i, an Islamist member of the Kuwaiti parliament, hoped that Allah would come to rescue the Gazans as he did with his prophet Muhammad in all his raids against the infidels.

 

Yusuf Al Qaradhawi, the renowned radical Islamic cleric, told the Al Jazeera TV that “We Muslims, we are a bunch of donkeys if we do not stand up and fight the Israelis and their supporters wherever they are.â€

 

Hamas and its affiliates are feeding on wishful thinking. They believe that an escalation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will bring them closer to their aim: Arabs and Muslims will take to the street and urge their governments to take action against Israel. Islamists in Iran and Indonesia have registered themselves to fight Jihad against the Jews.

 

We Arabs have learned nothing from the two major disastrous wars against Israel. Some of us still believe that the Israelis understand only the language of defiance and violence. Violence is the only “argument†we possess. Rational, realistic thinking has never been a part of our discourse and action.

 

Especially Islamists, they rejoice at the on-going maiming and killing in Gaza, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq. None of those Hamas-sympathizers has ever condemned the atrocities inflicted upon innocent people, arbitrarily killed in these countries by suicide bombers in the name Islam.

 

In Arabic we say, Ja’ja’a bila taheen†(It is all noise without flour). We Arabs are most boisterous, shrill people, but less effective or inclined to seeking pragmatic, workable solutions.

 

According to a clandestine survey by Bielefeld University conducted in Syria and Egypt (2006), over 70% of the population in these countries want peace with Israel. They are “sick and tiredâ€, as many put it, of the belligerent discourse of the Islamists and the biased and instigatory propaganda of their national media. They, of course, don’t dare say that openly.

Khaled, who wants to be identified by his first name only, told me, “Our leaders and their affiliates suffer from some kind of personality disorder. They keep us busy with Israel to distract from their failure to establish democracy and remove poverty. They also support radical organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah as tools to keep that distraction alive.â€

 

Fatima said, “Israel left South Lebanon and Gaza. Yet, for Hezbollah and Hamas this is not enough. What do these people want? They are making the life of their people and ours miserable. We feel hijacked by these murderers. We want peace.â€

 

Hamas and its affiliates are among the bloodiest in the history of mankind. They do not value human life. They deliberately provoked the Israeli offensive and were aware that that would cause death to hundreds of civilians living in areas where Hamas had stored its rockets. Hamas leadership has been banking on images of death and destruction as a means to rally support in Arab, Muslim, and Western streets.

 

According to a recent opinion poll, conducted by Emnid Institute in Germany, more than 80% of the German population blame Hamas for the high toll of deaths among civilians in Gaza. One interviewee put it this way, “Hamas is acting like armed criminals who have barricaded themselves among innocent civilians and arbitrarily fire at people around them. As the criminals adamantly refused to stop shooting, the police had no other choice but to storm the area to catch the criminals, or kill them. Unfortunately, several innocent people were killed. You can not blame the death of innocent people on the police. It is the criminals to blame for all this.†Israel must carry on its offensive until the Hamas leaders surrender. There is no peace without sacrifice. All Israelis and decent Arabs would be grateful to the Israeli army if it rids us from those thugs. We want to live in peace.

 

In view of the fact that Kuwait and Lebanon allow relatively higher freedom of speech, columnists like Ahemd Al Sarraf, Ali Al Baghli, Hasssan El Essa, Fouad Al Hashem, and Khaleel Haidar in these countries have blasted Hamas and the Islamists for the calamity in Gaza.

 

The Arab world has never experienced any semblance of political freedom and stability. Since independence over the last half of the 20th century, the Arabs have been ruled by despots, either military or hereditary. Demonstrations are basically forbidden; calls for political reforms are ruthlessly squashed. But when people demonstrate against a foreign powers—Israel or the USA, for instance—they are then most welcome.

 

The Syrian regime even allowed a hand-picked group people to protest against the Egyptian embassy for not opening the border with Gaza. The Egyptian government also allowed demonstrations against the Israeli strikes against Hamas, while the authoritarian regime of Husni Mubarak deals with demonstrators for political reforms ruthlessly. The Arab regimes have always projected the “Palestinian causeâ€â€”the “Wound of all Arabs†or the “Nakba†(calamity) as some Arabs prefer to call it—as a pretext to keep the people distracted from calls for political and economic reforms at home. The occupation of Iraq and the rise of Islamism have provided Arab regimes with new opportunities to defer socio-political reforms.

 

Besides, Arab regimes, such as the Egyptian, Syrian and Saudi governments, have appeased Islamists by antagonizing the same enemy, namely Israel and the USA, at least in the media. The radicals have stopped their arbitrary attacks in these countries; instead, they cross borders to wage Jihad against the foreign infidel enemy: in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

 

All that being said, the road to democracy, freedom and liberty in the Arab world will yet be long one; the Arabs will still have to wait for decades before they can enjoy these basic rights of man.

 

In the meantime, the name of the game in the Arab world remains demagogy, irrationalism, political schizophrenia, defiance and violence.'

 

 

Dr. Sami Alrabaa is a professor of sociology and an Arab/Muslim culture specialist. Before moving to Germany he taught at Kuwait University, King Saud University, and Michigan State University.

Reply With Quote

[vole]

The rockets into Israel have provoked the desired reaction of course. How can these puny fireworks possibly be a defence against Israeli aggression? It is called pulling the tail of the Tiger in order to bring about the invasion. I think it is cruel to use the Palestinians like tethered goats which is what Hamas are doing. Likewise,the Palestinians were STUPID to vote in a gang of masked nutters. We all know masked nutters usually make a ballls up of running a country.

If the French government were to be sending similar rockets at us then we would have steamed in long ago. Fortunately the French government does not consist of nutters.

[Mungler]

The rockets into Israel have provoked the desired reaction of course. How can these puny fireworks possibly be a defence against Israeli aggression? It is called pulling the tail of the Tiger in order to bring about the invasion. I think it is cruel to use the Palestinians like tethered goats which is what Hamas are doing. Likewise,the Palestinians were STUPID to vote in a gang of masked nutters. We all know masked nutters usually make a ballls up of running a country.

If the French government were to be sending similar rockets at us then we would have steamed in long ago. Fortunately the French government does not consist of nutters.

 

 

I think this is the best and most accurate summary.

 

I still think the Israeli response has been heavy handed, but why Hamas don't stop with the rocket attacks and clamber for some moral high ground baffles me, or rather convinces me that they are mentalists. Given the elapse of time, by now they could have actually tried a unilateral cease fire, gone for moral high ground and probably scored a few points if especially the civilian casualties mounted.