How fast is fast?

[BaikalsRule90]

i know from looking at the boxes of carts you can see the cartridge velocities

 

is there a noticable difference in lead between a cart taveling at 1200 fps and 1400 fps

 

 

 

Baikalsrule90

Edited January 15, 2009 by BaikalsRule90

[libs]

I have been told a few old shooters that if you start fussing over cart velocities, you might as well throw the things at the birds, it just doesnt make any difference.

[BaikalsRule90]

i didnt think it made any difference,

 

cheers libs

[utectok]

if you do the maths its inches and we miss by feet well i do!

[anser2]

I am not sure we notice the difference in lead needed between fast or slow cartridges , but it makes a difference in the Velocity the pellets hit the bird and how far the pellets penertrate , thus produce clean kills when using steel.

[casts_by_fly]

with steel, speed kills. Steel looses speed faster than lead so you really need to get them moving from the muzzle to keep the speed up as much as possible downrange.

 

With lead it isn't as important, but there is a difference in penetration. There is often quite a difference in recoil also. The Fiocchi golden pheasant rounds are pushing (I think) 1 1/4 oz at 1520 or something ridiculous. They hit hard at both ends, but are not necessary for any of the hunting I've done.

 

Thanks

Rick

[Munst]

Yeah agreed speed of swing and choke have a lot more to do with consistently good shooting than using faster cartridges.

[pat 1]

Any shell producing around 1200 to 1300fps will give you a much better pattern than faster shells using lead shot.If you stick to something simular all the time you would have nothing to worry about.In clay shooting a lot of shooters get hung up on speed,choke etc which will always effect their scores.

[tazkb]

of course it makes a difference 200 or even 300 fps will make a big enough difference

to most people (unless you are really that bad) on a 45yrd clay it will make the difference of up to

1 meter where your kill happens and on live quarry can make a difference between a clean kill and a

wounded animal, personally I like faster shells as they give better long rance accuracy and killing power

[Ferret Master]

Better accuracy? Many would argue that better killing power would consist of more consistent patterns so you know you will be putting enough pellets in the bird rather than one flyer going at high velocity.

 

FM

[utectok]

ok correct me if I'm wrong but given that observed shot speed is a lot slower than muzzle speed a fast cart might travel 40 yrds at say 1200 fps. And a slower cart might travel the 40 yds at an average of say 1000 fps therefore the slow cart takes 0.12 sec and the faster one takes 0.10 sec not insignifgant but you can't go a lot in 0.02 of a sec

[utectok]

well out of intrest I worked out that your average pigeon traveling at 40 mph would travel about a foot in 0.02 of a sec but how many true square crossers are there so a foot on a quatering bird will be inches. All in all ur better spending ur money on practise and lessons than expensive carts.

[clayman]

Many new shooters make the mistake of trying to compensate for not having good sight picture technique by replacing it with the fastest cartridges they can find in an attempt to eliminate lead.

 

They end up with a sore shoulder, a head ache and an empty wallet for their efforts, as the very fast MV cartridge is largely going to work against them, not for them

 

Very fast cartridges that are not too dear tend to have noisy and highly explosive ( i.e. not progressive) powders. They bang the shoulder / cheek and rattle your head. Hard to concentrate on accurate shooting when the recoil is knocking you about.

 

Better fast cartridges will have progressive powders with smoother recoil, and better wads to give improved patterns, but be prepared for an expensive days shooting!

 

Cheap wads in a fast cartridge will allow the pattern to be ragged and the edge of the pattern will have many loose flyers that will not break a clay or kill on there own. The fast exit also elongates the shot string, making a cone like pattern with a leading central cloud and a following trailing edge. A good pattern is only as long as it is wide, and you won't get that from super fast cartridges.

 

It is interesting to note the specialist discipline specific loads for the very best performance tend to be amongst the slower cartridges. Check out DTL and Skeet loads, often 1200 or 1250fps, and for use at the highest competition level.

 

Buy good quality carts but not the fastest. A good pattern from good powders and wad is more important the sheer speed. Spend the saving on getting lessons in a sound technique that sees and understands lead. As soon as you have that, you can knock things down at 50yds with sub-sonics and speed becomes completely irrelevant.

Edited January 16, 2009 by clayman

[utectok]

hi clayman I agree sorry if I didn't make my self clear but in my last post " all. In all ...." I thought I was clear but hey no worries anyway.

[clayman]

hi clayman I agree sorry if I didn't make my self clear but in my last post " all. In all ...." I thought I was clear but hey no worries anyway.

 

 

My post was general information for any reader - an expansion on yours and others views - your post was perfectly clear and accurate!

[jwpzx9r]

Surely the thing here is not the velocity of the shot aiding hitting the target but aiding the killing effect of the shot on the target. Two projectiles of the same mass and size but travelling at different velocities will give different energies at the poi. Probably more important when game shooting but definitely worth paying for when shooting say high pheasant. Simply put a size 5 at 1500 ft / sec has more energy than the same 5 does at 1200ft/sec maybe more important when you are trying to kill a bird not break a clay, or am I missing the point altogether?

[clayman]

You are assuming the velocity is constant on the whole flight path, but in ballistics the drop on any shotload / pellet to sub-sonic speed happens comparatively shortly after leaving the barrel. Most of the flight of any cartridge is sub-sonic and the actual impact speeds from a 1500fps exit and a 1200fps exit cartridge are not significantly different. The best way to increase inertial energy at impact is increase shot size rather than increase speed.

[Macnab]

As I think has been said before, the best thing is use the same cartridges as much as possible. I got hung up on cartridge speed last season when I was given 250 very fast carts. But this year I have used Hull High Pheasant all season and very happy with them. Main thing is to have confidence and consistency in your kit. Oh and get your gun fitted - worked wonders for me.

M

[clayman]

I think I'm going to produce and market a special additive for cartridges that will make any cartridge work better.

 

It will come in a little bottle and it will cost a fortune. You take an eye dropper and add one drop to each cartridge down the crimp. When you have done it to a batch, you will score much higher than ever before.

 

I'll call the product "Confidence", because if you have confidence in your cartridges - they will work for you.

 

Bottom line is, if you have a gun that fits, good mount and stance, and you have "confidence" in your cartridges, they will break anything.

 

£50-00 a bottle, any takers?

 

[ChrisNicholls]

I got hung up on cartridge speed last season when I was given 250 very fast carts. But this year I have used Hull High Pheasant all season and very happy with them.

 

I consider the Hull High Pheasant to be fast cartridges, in the scheme of things for game loads they are fast - superb shells though, I've been using them for the last two seasons and rate them highly.

 

What was you using that was faster?

[Chard]

I think I'm going to produce and market a special additive for cartridges that will make any cartridge work better.

 

It will come in a little bottle and it will cost a fortune. You take an eye dropper and add one drop to each cartridge down the crimp. When you have done it to a batch, you will score much higher than ever before.

 

I'll call the product "Confidence", because if you have confidence in your cartridges - they will work for you.

 

Bottom line is, if you have a gun that fits, good mount and stance, and you have "confidence" in your cartridges, they will break anything.

 

£50-00 a bottle, any takers?

 

 

 

I might have had a few bottles of that off you, but it says on the label that it's not a sex aid.

 

No good to man nor beast

[chrispti]

I thought the faster the better, I use (12g) express world cup 28g 5s running at 1500fps for pigeon shooting.

 

However...

 

This weekend Ive been using a 20g with subsonic loads, 30g 5s and impressed would be an understatement! The few pigeons that came over or decoyed (and the even fewer that were hit ) were killed stone dead in the air, some at a fair range too, around 45yrds.

[Macnab]

I consider the Hull High Pheasant to be fast cartridges, in the scheme of things for game loads they are fast - superb shells though, I've been using them for the last two seasons and rate them highly.

 

What was you using that was faster?

 

I was given a case of Express cartridges specially made up for Rakers in Petworth I think. They are branded as Kinnell, as in 'kinnell those are fast....'

 

They are 28 g 6's and are rated at at least 1500fps. They must have different sort of powder as make a hell of a noise and in the last drives on a darkening Winter afternoon produce a very visible muzzle flash!

 

I'll be sticking with the Hull High Pheasant in 7's and 6's (plus a bottle of Confidence to rub into my stock).

 

M

[shoughton]

of course it makes a difference 200 or even 300 fps will make a big enough difference

to most people (unless you are really that bad) on a 45yrd clay it will make the difference of up to

1 meter where your kill happens and on live quarry can make a difference between a clean kill and a

wounded animal, personally I like faster shells as they give better long rance accuracy and killing power

 

This sounds interesting - I'd like to understand the maths that support this and will try working it out. I keep meaning to.

 

But could you share how you come to that calculation?

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Vince Green]

You are assuming the velocity is constant on the whole flight path, but in ballistics the drop on any shotload / pellet to sub-sonic speed happens comparatively shortly after leaving the barrel. Most of the flight of any cartridge is sub-sonic and the actual impact speeds from a 1500fps exit and a 1200fps exit cartridge are not significantly different. The best way to increase inertial energy at impact is increase shot size rather than increase speed.

 

Absolutely correct.