What Scope for Those 300 yard shots

[Zapp]

Oh, go on then... At the very least you'll have a bacon buttie and a cuppa waiting for you!

 

Done

 

ZB

[Dunkield]

Don't forget as the PW Mythbusting team, you also need to fire a round straight up in the air and ask Pavman to stand under it, so we will know once ad for all if it reaches terminal velocity or not.

That's a fairy big old target for the round to go at, it shouldn't be a problem

[Dave-G]

Have to disagree.....

 

I am confident i could shoot foxes all day long at 300 yards if i was lying prone.I would prefer at least 18x.

If the bullet passes through (as it nearly always does) it will hit the backstop !

All the foxes i shoot are standing up leaning on the bonnet and have taken them up to 280 yds so lying prone properly rested can only make it easier.

I certainly wouldnt class myself as irresponsible.

 

How do you get them trained up BB?

[pavman]

Don't forget as the PW Mythbusting team, you also need to fire a round straight up in the air and ask Pavman to stand under it, so we will know once ad for all if it reaches terminal velocity or not.

That's a fairy big old target for the round to go at, it shouldn't be a problem

 

 

I could go off you Stu

[fieldwanderer]

Fair enough, people are always bound to exaggerate - a bit like the fisherman saying "IT WAS THIS BIG!"

 

Here's my point of view, some won't like it but that's fine;

 

I had two years shooting on the national squad, shot four international matches, got coached for a weekend every month and shot for around 2hrs a day - So, I'm pretty handy with a rifle (imho at least).

 

I've had rabbits at 180yds with my .22, usually with hypersonics at 180 ft/lbs ish - some have been head shots, most weren't. I'm a good shot but that's the furvest (sp) I'd ever attempt and only in the right conditions. I can do it confidently and easily 19 out of twenty are nice and clean.

 

The rifle's a cz american which I altered to make the barrel fully floating, harris by-pod, ase-utra mod and simmons 6-24 x 50 AO scope.

 

In the pipelines, I've got a .17HMR variation coming through, I wish I could have a .223 or similar but the permission I've got is too small and too close to a main road. I'll be using the same mod, scope and bi-pod on it but the main reason is it seems to me that it's a bit better suited to the ranges I currently shoot at. I'd imagine you could maybe stretch it to 225-250yds but I'll be happy with 180-200yds.

 

According to manufacturer's websites, a 17gn .17HMR at 150yds has 79 (ish) ft/lbs and I'd guess that beond 200yds won't disintegrate like it should. IMO, anything over 225yds is a "potshot" Even I'm not confident enough at that range with such a light bullet.

 

Why do I shoot at long range? Because I like a challenge!! I've got the fieldcraft to get within 50yds if I want (I regularly do with my shottys) but I enjoy those long shots more. Go easy on 'em peeps, people preffer to be educated than riddiculed

[pavman]

Fair enough, people are always bound to exaggerate - a bit like the fisherman saying "IT WAS THIS BIG!"

 

Here's my point of view, some won't like it but that's fine;

 

I've had rabbits at 180yds with my .22, usually with hypersonics at 180 ft/lbs ish - .

 

Why do I shoot at long range? Because I like a challenge!! I've got the fieldcraft to get within 50yds if I want (I regularly do with my shottys) but I enjoy those long shots more. Go easy on 'em peeps, people preffer to be educated than riddiculed

 

OK here’s my modified moderate opinion

 

And lets keep it to the HMR.17

 

I fully accept some folk are cracking shots and will be able to take on a more challenging live target than the likes of me and I place myself as Jo average, I too have undertaken training at Rifle Craft (2 day course) and understand common sense is often the best asset you can bring to any situation.

 

IMHO long shots with the HMR should be judged by the man pulling the trigger on the basis of probability of a clean kill, as surly no one would wish to inflict undue suffering? This includes shot placement and energy at distance to do the business. I also want to mention the time it takes to pick the quarry and dispatch it humanely should a clean kill not transpire and this becomes more important the grater the distance between you and quarry. Anyone who shoots for vermin control as I do a reasonable number of Rabbits and says he never has a squeaker that requires dispatching is IMHO not quite sharing the truth, I shoot in the order of 1000 a year and that’s quite a few shots.

 

Here’s the crunch bit for me,

 

I am there to do a job not prove how good I am with a Rifle, If I want to do that I can paper punch and we can all stand round and pat me on the back. However with the use of field craft I try to eliminate as much as possible the chance of getting it wrong and causing unnecessary harm.

 

I remember my Gamekeeper friend telling me it’s a bit like paying the executioner to use a sharp Axe, Please make it quick and clean

[fieldwanderer]

I fully accept some folk are cracking shots and will be able to take on a more challenging live target than the likes of me and I place myself as Jo average, I too have undertaken training at Rifle Craft (2 day course) and understand common sense is often the best asset you can bring to any situation.

 

IMHO long shots with the HMR should be judged by the man pulling the trigger on the basis of probability of a clean kill, as surly no one would wish to inflict undue suffering?

 

Think you've hit the nail on the head there - -some don't like it, some can do it and do it well, and some try to do it and end up with undue suffering - it's the nut behind the bolt that counts (as my coach used to say).

 

Have a look at this and you'll see a classic example, I did it just for you guys

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/ind...showtopic=84027

 

Granted, it's a .22 rimmy and half the range of the 300yd miricle. But it shows that long shots have a place and that the .22's not just "an 80yd gun" well, imho anyway.

[bennyblanco]

My problems with 300yds is the absolute inconsistency you will get even in good conditions and the need for perfect rang finding.

 

from a 2550fps muzzle velocity and a 100yds zero I make it that you will get

36" drop

43ftlbs energy

and the scary bit is a 19.5" deflection from a mere 5mph side wind

 

The range finding nightmare is that at 310yds the bullet will drop another 4.5" and move 1.5" to the side, can you really range find a rabbit well enough to know whether it is 300 or 310yds? I can't so won't shoot at live quarry at silly ranges.

 

As for penetrating 16" of wood and no POI change at 100 200 and 300yds, :unsure:

 

 

The 3" target challenge sounds fun though

[shoot57]

6-24x56 hawke sidewinder, savage btvs, federal vshock 17gn, have got it out to 200mtr, zeroing it at 90 mtr and dialing in the elevation every 20mtr until 200mtr, furthest rabbit shot at 194mtr with help from a rangefinder on a still evening.

[fieldwanderer]

My problems with 300yds is the absolute inconsistency you will get even in good conditions and the need for perfect rang finding.

 

from a 2550fps muzzle velocity and a 100yds zero I make it that you will get

36" drop

43ftlbs energy

and the scary bit is a 19.5" deflection from a mere 5mph side wind

 

The range finding nightmare is that at 310yds the bullet will drop another 4.5" and move 1.5" to the side, can you really range find a rabbit well enough to know whether it is 300 or 310yds? I can't so won't shoot at live quarry at silly ranges.

 

As for penetrating 16" of wood and no POI change at 100 200 and 300yds, :unsure:

 

 

The 3" target challenge sounds fun though

 

Wow! someone's into their statistics! I wasn't arguing for or against really, I believe a .17HMR's probably o.k. for ranges a good bit further than some on here think, after all, I prove the .22's perfectly capable of 120+yds quite regularly even though some think it's useless beyond 80yds.

 

Can I join in this 3" target thing when I get mine!? I just need you all to ring lincolnshire police for me and tell them to hurry up with my variation

[bennyblanco]

Wow! someone's into their statistics!

 

 

have a play

http://www.norma.cc/javapage_US2.asp?Lang=2

 

bc is .125 and weight is 17gr

 

I just like to cut out as many runners as possible, most of my shots are within 70yds with .22 or .17.

I can and do shoot longer and have a wonderful line of trees in a valley 185yds out from cover and plink at the magpies with a hill for a back stop but there is little chance of hitting and only wounding.

 

The .223 can go much further but 200yds is pushing it on a bi-pod for me, and most people are a mile out when guessing ranges unless you have a laser range finder and a good feature to measure.

 

 

ben

[fieldwanderer]

I've played with 'em before mate, strange how they never quite line up with what the ammunition manufacturers claim :unsure:

 

That's it at the end of the day though, you need to shoot within your capabilities - and that only comes with experience. I personaly think 300yds is a bit ott because of how easily the tiny bullet's effected by the wind. But in the right conditions (very still day, not too sunny or hot) and with enough experience, it's not impossible.

 

If I didn't think I could achive a clean kill at 150yds, I'd stalk closer but I can. I tend to go for head shots because if the shot goes high, right or left it'll miss - if low it'll hit the chest which is usually a clean kill and all the better if the shot goes where intended.

 

I'll have to wait until I get mine before I can really say but I do agree, 300yds is a bit too far - BUT I think to say 150-175yds is the .17HMR's limit is also untrue (unless you're not a very good shot).

 

 

My point in the first place though was that it's a bit out of order to ridicule people just because you don't agree with what they're doing - it would be better to show them the error of their ways (not aimed at you bennyblanco), you seem to see things similar to me.

[Blackbart]

How do you get them trained up BB?

 

 

I have spent many many years training foxes to stand up and lean against the bonnet and i am not about to tell you how its done dave.How do you think i shoot so many :unsure:

[pavman]

A fact missing by many of you is that in the field most of us Zero at 100 for Rabbits and dont touch the scope all night, theres no need and more to the point no time, with around 8 inch drop at 200 you quickly run out of mildots, I still cant get into my head just why you would want to attempt long shots anyway when you can get within a sensible range,

 

am I missing a point :unsure:

[Blackbart]

Your missing the challenge pav.

 

Take football...If you score from 6 yards with a side footer,you have achieved your aim but anyone could have done it.

 

If you take a free kick from 30 yards and bend it round the wall and score,again you have achieved your aim, but you have done it in a more satisfying way and a way that challenges your skill and tecnique as a footballer.

 

So in conclusion...next time you are out try taking the free kick instead of the tap in.

[Wookie]

How often does a free kick get a clean goal?

 

How often does a penalty score?

 

How often do you kill a rabbit cleanly from a long distance? How many runners?

 

Sorry, but keep the free kicks to football. Live animals deserve better than that.

[Blackbart]

Your missing the point aswell wookie.

 

And by the way free kicks either go in or MISS

[bullet boy]

Still cant see it!! :unsure:

[al4x]

don't be quite so self righteous, 300 yards is cloud cuckoo land with an HMR but 200 and less isn't

 

Pav just because you don't agree with using holdover doesn't mean other shots can't manage it and lets face it if you were using a .22LR you'd have to think about it all the time. Sub 150 we very rarely get a miss but thats body shots as we're doing vermin control and honestly I cannot remember getting a squealer or a proper runner since we've been using HMR's Had a few where the shot has gone too far back and disabled the rabbit enough for a rapid second shot to do the job but far more humane than either a shottie or a .22lr

200 yard shots are saved for ideal conditions and as said it is in a way more sporting to test yourself and give the rabbit a bit more chance, which is an ethic very similar to high pheasant shooting or fast partridges but I expect you disagree with both of those forms of shooting and like your pheasants sitting on the ground at 20 yards away so you can be sure of a kill.

I actually think I would get bored shooting rabbits at 100 yards with an HMR as I could almost do it with my eyes shut. We were out last night and had 28 for 29 shots and the missed one ducked at the last moment in barley thats just getting a little long so it was just the top of the head visible to start with.

[Wookie]

Your missing the point aswell wookie.

 

And by the way free kicks either go in or MISS

 

What about if you hit the bar? Seriously, I would not want to hit a rabbit in the hind quarters because I wanted to see if I could hit it at 250+ m. That's like being gutshot... You'd take a while to die.

 

The longest shot I have taken with my HMR was a body shot kill at 153m. That's about as far as I would really want to shoot small game with the setup I have. Sorry, but this is about balancing risk and, in my opinion, they start to outweigh the rewards past that for me.

[Blackbart]

I am not talking about 250yards + !!

 

Pav is on about anything over 100 yards.

 

I think the 17 would be ok up to 2oo ish but there is a world of difference between 200 and 300.

 

I give up on this one.If some people are such a bad shot that they have to waite until their prey is within touching distance that's fine,but don't condemn the rest of the people that CAN actually hit a cows **** with a banjo from more than 100 yards away.

[pavman]

I am not talking about 250yards + !!

 

Pav is on about anything over 100 yards.

 

I think the 17 would be ok up to 2oo ish but there is a world of difference between 200 and 300.

 

I give up on this one.If some people are such a bad shot that they have to waite until their prey is within touching distance that's fine,but don't condemn the rest of the people that CAN actually hit a cows **** with a banjo from more than 100 yards away.

 

 

Blackbart on what assumption do you arrive that folk who dont take long range pot shots cant hit a cows rear end?

 

I dont say I cant hit a long target I say I choose not to test my skills at long range on a live animal, i test it on paper and keep my field range to a sensible distance, this thread came about because a newbie asked how far can i expect to kill rabbits with a HMR and thats not an easy question to answer, however if you said 100-125 its effective but i can push that out thats fine by me, but for anyone to admit to a newbie they live target practice is IMHO not going to help

Edited April 3, 2009 by pavman

[Blackbart]

Blackbart on what assumption do you arrive that folk who dont take long range pot shots cant hit a cows rear end?

 

Didnt mention "POT SHOT'S" ......there you go again ridiculing anything that's further than you can shoot accurately at.

 

I arrived at that assumption because you keep saying that hitting anything accurately over 100 yards can't be done.And before you say it's alright with paper and not animals,why do you think,if someone can put consistent shots in the zone at targets that they shouldn't do it on pests ?

 

I am not saying the 17 is the mythical magic round but it is better than YOU think it is and basically saying people are irrisponsible to shoot at anything over 100 yards is wrong.

 

Who mentioned live target practice ? ?

Edited April 3, 2009 by Blackbart

[pavman]

Didnt mention "POT SHOT'S" ......there you go again ridiculing anything that's further than you can shoot accurately at.

 

I arrived at that assumption because you keep saying that hitting anything accurately over 100 yards can't be done.And before you say it's alright with paper and not animals,why do you think,if someone can put consistent shots in the zone at targets that they shouldn't do it on pests ?

 

I am not saying the 17 is the mythical magic round but it is better than YOU think it is and basically saying people are irrisponsible to shoot at anything over 100 yards is wrong.

 

Who mentioned live target practice ? ?

 

Its a pity you dont live a little closer as we are testing in the morning and could do with help from a good shot, Myself Wookie and Zapp will be in Cambridge for 10am (never meet them looking forward to a meet up) and I guess we represent an avg and we will test in ave field conditions, like out the truck window etc as I guess thats how most of us shoot rabbits??? Let me say I would be the first to shake your hand and seek your advise on watching you hit 200 plus targets in the same manner ie out the truck window off a Quad rail etc.

 

Let me say this AGAIN i accept some folk are cracking shots and can hit long targets but the avg man in the field, out the window zero at 100 a little wind not on level ground resting on a wing morror is not that good and cant do it, if you can fantastic I am not taking anything away from your skill, just pointing out whats reasonable IMO

Edited April 3, 2009 by pavman

[al4x]

just as long as you don't post a load of bullocks results of shots at 300 yards,

 

As I said extrapulate your logic and you end up shooting pigeons sitting in your decoy pattern with your 12 bore.

 

I like to think our rabbit shooting platform is pretty good and bags on the L200 roof with a decent seat is a bit like bench rest shooting but I'd happily sit there shooting a rabbit sized target at 150 yards all day long