Problem with the keeper

[fieldwanderer]

I mentioned this briefly in another thread but thought I may find it helpful to ask you guys' thoughts;

 

I've been shooting one farm for around 5years now, frankly - I've decimated the rabbit population (which makes it a little boring but a job well done) and the farmer's happy, there's not such a serious problem with pigeon but I bag as many as I can.

 

Anyway, the farmer's wife came to see me the other day when I got back to my car and asked me to shoot their "other" field, I knew they had one but not where it is and assumed I couldn't shoot it because of some specific reason. Anyway, she said if I saw the keeper just to say the farmer had given me permission to shoot it. Of course, I agreed and went for a look before I went home. Nice little field, heavily damaged by the pigeons and the only thing to avoid is a house in the one corner.

 

SO, shotgun and decoys in hand I went back the next day and set myself up and was sat waiting when a 4x4 turned up, a guy got out and had a nosey at my car before driving into a nearby field and firing a few shots at something or other. He returned and had another look at my car - By now I was pretty sure he was the keeper so I got up and went for a word so he'd know who I was.

 

Indeed, he was the keeper but he wasn't impressed, not one little bit. Aparently the farmer had no right to give me permission to shoot there as it's his field but he doesn't have the shooting rights he also said I should've gone to see him first because he may have shot at something in the field with me behind it where he couldn't see me (in the hedge) - what happened to "never shoot where you can't see"!?

 

When he'd gone I packed up and went straight to the farmer (thought I'd get there before a nasty phonecall). The farmer's words were "well he's got that wrong, it's my land - I'm perfectly within my rights to deal with pests on it, and that includes letting you shoot it; I'll ring him....."

 

So, a bit of a mess really and I'm not going back until I get the o.k. from the farmer but even then I'm reluctant as mr keeper's not gonna be a happy chappy Not sure what I'm supposed to do really.

[MerseaDavid]

At the end of the day if the farmer has given you permission to shoot the field then there is no problem.

I would just ignore the keeper.

 

and for him to say that might have fired across the field even if he did not know it was safe is not good, if it is the farmers land I would tell him what he said and the farmer will sort him out.

That is not right, I always have trouble with keepers who think just because they pay the land owner to shoot the land then they own it.

 

I have kicked many keepers of my land because they have that attitude.

 

It is hard to find a good keeper who is polite and is happy to talk to you sensibally and will let other people shoot the land.

 

I would carry on shooting the field and if he comes and complains just call the farmer and he will come down and sort it out face to face.

[Ozzy Fudd]

let the farmer and the keeper sort it out, maybe go have a word with he keeper, explain that your only there for vermin control, nothing else, might help

[anser2]

I had a similar problem on one of the farms I shoot. The farmer is a tenant and shoot is rented out to a big syndicate. The farmer asked me to shoot the pigeons as despite having 3 keepers on the land none could be bothered to do so. I would not have gone there , but for the farmer also owns a second farm where I do most of my pigeon shooting so while this new farm is a bit of a nuisance because its quite a long way from my main shooting I cant afford to upset my farmer by not shooting it.

 

The keepers went up the wall when I shot there first time ( outside the game season ) so I went back to the farmer to put him in the picture. Now it was his turn to go up the wall at the keepers and land owner. He was paying 100,000 + pounds in rent , where as the shoot was only paying a few thousand pounds. As he pointed out to the shoot captain and keepers they were playing in the countryside while farming was his living. So if his keepers could not be bothered to control the pigeons he was going to get his own guy to do it for him.

 

Finally the dust has settled , I have shot a hell of a lot of pigeons on the farm and while all I get is a grunt and nod from the keepers so Fieldwander as long as your farmed owns the land or is the main tenant I would not worry too much. After all its his livelihood you are protecting.

[fieldwanderer]

At the end of the day if the farmer has given you permission to shoot the field then there is no problem.

I would just ignore the keeper.

 

and for him to say that might have fired across the field even if he did not know it was safe is not good, if it is the farmers land I would tell him what he said and the farmer will sort him out.

That is not right, I always have trouble with keepers who think just because they pay the land owner to shoot the land then they own it.

 

I have kicked many keepers of my land because they have that attitude.

 

It is hard to find a good keeper who is polite and is happy to talk to you sensibally and will let other people shoot the land.

 

I would carry on shooting the field and if he comes and complains just call the farmer and he will come down and sort it out face to face.

 

That sounds very much like his attitude, unfortunately I've not got the option of calling the farmer as he doesn't work his own land. To be honest, it was all a bit sureal - this guy was laying into me even though I was pretty sure I was in the right and I was the one with a 12bore in my hands! Just as well I've not got a temper!! I think he doesn't like it because (to his rediculous way of thinking) he didn't need to think about where he was shooting until now and the fact the farmer's asked me to sort the pigeons out on there reflects badly on him - well, he's done a **** job of that from what I've seen!

 

Fair enough though, if the farmer gets it sorted and lets me know I'll go back and see how it goes and I'll keep you posted

[Blackbart]

A way around this...and we have done this on our shoot that was bought from beneath our feet a couple of year back.

 

Even if your farmer doesnt own the land and is a tenant he can expect the owner to control pests,whether that be pigeons,rats,rabbits or whatever is classed as a pest and they are under obligation to do so legally.The farmers where we had the shoot gave them the option of either paying someone to come in and do the pest control or letting the farmers authorise someone to do it for free.Even though the new land owners had insisted "No Shooting" they relented on this and went for the "free" option,thus we got 3000 acres back for pest control.

 

Now having said all that if the shoot is renting it off the farmer then you would have to look at the terms of the rent.

[wattsowatts]

I have just got a new permission and when the landowner was showing me around he purposefully took around to meet the keeper.

 

The keeper was not overly impressed, saying that pigeon shooting was a waste of time around this particular farm; but at the end of the day the farmer owns the land and has the right to control pests. I have agreed to telephone the keeper whenever I am on the land shooting; I just hope I can prove the keeper wrong and get some reasonably large bags.

[charlie 1]

don't forget chaps that it is down to who has the shooting rights at the end of the day.

generally it lies with the game keeper if it is on an estate therfore as i undertsnad it they are the only ones who can give permission to shoot on that land.

most farmers dont really understand that as they just see the pests, so ask others to go and shoot them.

 

a gamekeeper is very busy they have lots of things to get done so spending lots of nights out lamping or days reconnasance and pigeon shooting isn't that high on the priority. most will have a couple of chaps who will do the vermin control for them. however most the farmers i know just want to see people sorting the vermin out 24/7 which is not practical.

 

find out who has the shooting rights then do it through there. we have alot of bloody farmers round here who just invite anyone to shoot the land whenever which creates some serious safety problems at times. very often tenant farmers have no right to say who can shoot what and where so take that into consideration.

also you need to understand that gamekeepers will sometimes give shooting to those who help them build/repair pens etc, so when the farmer is offering shooting to everyone else they are taking the shooting away from those who work for it. which will put the keeper in bad light with those who are helping, when they see others shooting without working.

[Cranfield]

Anyway, she said if I saw the keeper just to say the farmer had given me permission to shoot it. Of course, I agreed and went for a look before I went home.

 

Thats the bit where I think things went wrong.

You should have seen the Keeper before shooting on the field.

If he had then said that you couldn't, or reacted in a negative fashion, you could have gone straight back to see the Farmer and asked for it to get sorted out.

 

The Farmer may own the land, but its my experience that where they let all or some of the shooting and the Tenant has a Keeper in place ( which usually indicates he is paying serious money for the Rights), then the Tenant (and his Keeper) has a lot of authority on the land.

[Justintime]

Just a little point the land owner holds all rights NOT THE KEEPER he can also tell the keeper to do one if he so wishes

[fieldwanderer]

Thats the bit where I think things went wrong.

You should have seen the Keeper before shooting on the field.

If he had then said that you couldn't, or reacted in a negative fashion, you could have gone straight back to see the Farmer and asked for it to get sorted out.

 

The Farmer may own the land, but its my experience that where they let all or some of the shooting and the Tenant has a Keeper in place ( which usually indicated he is paying serious money for the Rights), then the Tenant (and his Keeper) has a lot of authority on the land.

 

I can see your point, and the keeper's But - I've shot this farmer's land for years and never had to worry about this sort of thing - at the end of the day, I didn't know any better When she said about the keeper, I just assumed he was involved with the surrounding land and may be concerned about me being there - So, as far as I knew, I was fine but should let him know who I was and why I was there whenever possible.

 

Anyway, the ball's in their court at the moment, if I'm o.k. to shoot it I'll find out soon enough - and if the keeper gives me any trouble I'll just let the farmer know and stay off it. It's not a huge loss to me, it's only about 10 acres but it's a shame I wasn't better informed in the first place. If I'd known the field was of some interest to this keeper, I'd've gone to see him.

[jinxy72]

suppose it comes down to wheather the land owner had given SOLE shooting rights to the tenant in their initial contract or not. Might be worth asking the landowner ( ie farmer if he is ) wheather he did this.

[henry d]

Just a little point the land owner holds all rights NOT THE KEEPER he can also tell the keeper to do one if he so wishes

 

Not strictly true, the farmer may have sold the "GAME" shooting rights, but farmers generally have a right to control vermin.

 

If you tell the farmer what concerns you, ie. being uncomfortable shooting there when the gamekeeper did not know and that he should work the situation out amicably with the `keeper/shoot captain.

[Suffolk shooter]

As has been said once before, it depends on who owns the Sporting rights on the land. If the Farmer is a tenant, and the Landowner holds the Rights, then his Keeper(s) as being directly employed have the right. If however in the Farmers lease it states that he must control vermin, but that the Landowner retains the sporting rights, then there needs to be an agreement between Farmer/Keeper and yourself. If however as a tenant, the farmer holds all shooting rights contractually and its just a verbal agreement for the keepering of the land, then the farmer holds all the cards.

 

Hindsight is a marvellous thing, but I would have tried to see the keeper before hand, just to ensure this sort of thing didn't happen, but as said its easy in hindsight.

 

All the best and lesson learned for next time.

 

SS

[Llanshooter]

There is a difference between sporting rights and shooting rights.

if it's a tenant farmer then the landowner can sell the shooting or sporting rights to another party.

 

if it's shooting rights then there should be a clear definition of what can and can not be shot (i.e. usually game, wildfowl or deer etc). If the sporting rights are sold then usually I think everything is off limits without permission from the owner/leasee of the sporting rights.

 

BASC should be able to provide a definitive answer if you are a member.

[starlight32]

Seen it many a time....... Think about it chaps, there are a lot of syndicates who you don't see the members much between one game season to the next. Ok there are a lot of us who are keen on the vermin control all year round but there are alot of game shooters who don't venture out at all between once the season is over. Keepers are hard work, but I put that down to the pressure of the job, and the fact that most of them have a chip on their shoulders. Vermin with-in sporting rights is usually reserved at the disgression of the landowner and to be honest most of the disputes regarding it are down to a lack of communication between the parties involved.

 

I've had many a row with gamekeepers and thankfully I have'nt lost many an arguement, the worst ones being the part timers who are just playing at it as far I am concerned..... Where I agree to a point that most of the 'disturbance' which they argue is for the welfare of their shoot mostly comes down to the fact they feel they have more of an 'ownership' of the land than as a tenant themselves of it.

 

When a landowner says to me just go see the keeper first and let him know 9/10 times you are met with a frosty reception, which can or in some cases cannot subside in time.

 

Shoot the land, if the problem persists go back and see your landowner and try and get them to mediate.... If your landowner is strong enough he will read him the riot act as I would, personally as far as business is concerned I would'nt let game shooting get in the way of it even though I am a game shooter myself.

 

Regards

[cpnova]

In my experience keepers get highly territorial and can often act as though they actually own the place. I would advise anyone new to a piece of land to ask for the contact details of the keeper or syndicate principal before you go and start shooting. A quick call can soon ascertain if there's going to be an issue which can then be sorted before you go. Its down to the keeper and landowner to square it away and is often just needs some common courtesy

As a farmer its all too easy to encourage anyone on without thinking too much about the keepers feelings when you are driven to distraction by pest issues which very often cost a damn sight more than the shooting rights bring in. You find yourself thinking that if the 25 or so shoot members (who are always available to shoot/beat weekdays if its pheasant shooting or fox lamping) can't be ***** to turn out and help in your hours of need then "sod it" lets get someone in who will.