Baldrick Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I'm surprised we haven't had this video aired on here yet (have we?): http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/v...-police-assault Whilst I appreciate that there is always two sides to every story, my interpretation of the footage is that a harmless bloke died as a direct result of wholly unnecessary police intervention. It looks indefensible to me, but no doubt the officers' anonymity will make any investigation difficult. I know that none of the serving police officers can comment, but what's the consensus from those who do not receive the Home Office's shilling? I must add that I have since swabbed myself down with bleach after clicking on the link to The Guardian, to remedy the exposure to left-wing drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhiannonBW Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 You should change the title of the thread. He wasn't a G20 protestor, he was a newspaper vendor in the wrong place at the wrong time. The police talked themselves up into a tizzy, and I'm surprised there were as few injuries as there were. Rhiannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted April 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 A very fair point, Rhiannon, but unfortunately I can't change the thread title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1979 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 do you not think the police would have been tellin the guy to move??? i do!!! he was just bein an ****..tryin to get a point across!!!! its the same wit that bloke who they shot on the tube...stop runnin or we will shoot you.....errrrm....bang!!! wot wud have happend if they hadnt shot him and hed blown the bloody blace up!!! am sorry but i dont think the cops in either case did anything wrong!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 ok look at his movements, his hands are tightly in his pockets, he's moving very slowly accross the line trying to hold them up. Hell theres two dogs at his legs yet he still doesn't move out of the way. Theres nothing stopping him doing as he's told, he wasn't trying to argue with the police or walk through their cordon but just get in their way. Was he a protester or not or just causing agravation to the police, whichever I think he was at the minimum playing up for the cameras, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhiannonBW Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 am sorry but i dont think the cops in either case did anything wrong!!!! Have you watched the video?? Watch it from 1:30 in. Rhiannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 The video on the telly this morning shows him turn and say something to the police, he then gets bundled to the ground. He did not die there and then, he had a heart attack later on. Everybody knew what was going on in london that day, why didn't they stay out of it if they didn't want any involvement. I never thought I would be defending the police but yes he was bundled to the ground but for no reason? I guess we will never be told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin vs Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Looked like the cop abusing his position to me, no need for the force he used, he was just waiting for a chance to hit someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave1979 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 wether he hit him or not..that didnt kill him!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted April 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 wether he hit him or not..that didnt kill him!!!! Read up on the 'eggshell skull' principle in civil law, specifically in negiligence. If the police officers' actions instigated Tomlinson's cardiac arrest and subsequent death, the Police may be liable. MC, Tomlinson obviously said something and was hardly moving with lightning speed, but did it warrant such a disproportionate action by the police? A baton slammed across his legs, and then pushed to the ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Baldrick, No possibly not, but then look at it from the police point of view. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. What would have happened if they hadn't done anything and he had gone on to smash a window or similar? As I said earlier I find it hard to defend the police and this instance is no different. But why don't these people do as they are told? The police were obviously hyped up that day and it was all over the news that it would kick off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy1 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 wether he hit him or not..that didnt kill him!!!! Maybe not, but the added stress of being hit across the back of the legs with a baton, then violently pushed in the back to the ground, could have been enough to bring on a fatal heart attack. I'm not defending either party because i don't know the facts, but surley the police are trained to use minimum force necessary to contain a situation. From what i could see from the video, the guy that died was not being violent, maybe just a pain in the butt giving a bit of lip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 do you not think the police would have been tellin the guy to move??? i do!!! he was just bein an ****..tryin to get a point across!!!! its the same wit that bloke who they shot on the tube...stop runnin or we will shoot you.....errrrm....bang!!! wot wud have happend if they hadnt shot him and hed blown the bloody blace up!!! am sorry but i dont think the cops in either case did anything wrong!!!! Dave instead of quoting what the police spouted just after the incident have a look at what really happened on the tube !! The bloke was not running,he was not warned,he was shot in the head several times while he was sitting on the train in a seat.No warning No running No chance.The police lied and tried to cover it up. This g20 thing.The police get so hyped up and behave like a mob and are brutal in such situations.They are like this at football matches whe there is trouble.If you are infront of them you get hit whether you are causing trouble or not,you get charged at with a horse because you are infront of them.The bloke in the vid could have been unwell and i know he would have been pretty peed off because he couldnt get home because the police where blocking his every turn.I do not think anything will come of it because they will investigate it and find no one at fault,..not in a uniform anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 do you not think the police would have been tellin the guy to move??? i do!!! he was just bein an ****..tryin to get a point across!!!! its the same wit that bloke who they shot on the tube...stop runnin or we will shoot you.....errrrm....bang!!! wot wud have happend if they hadnt shot him and hed blown the bloody blace up!!! am sorry but i dont think the cops in either case did anything wrong!!!! Did you even watch that ? From the footage and EYE WITNESS accounts the Police never said "Stop running or we will shoot" the man also NEVER jumped the turnstyle, what would you have done if several men started chasing you through the tube for no apparent reason ? Both these situations police are way out of hand, which is quite sad tbh because some Police Officers I know are great people and really nice, The ones I have encountered were fair, very professional and polite, some have been right d***'s and obv get the power trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 best to ignore the tube shooting as personally I'd not have shouted a potential suicide bomber a warning, and feel very sorry for those guys sent to deal with what could have been a guy able to trigger a bomb with me close had he been warned. The guys who did the dirty work thought they were dealing with the real thing hence the way they did it just a shame the powers that be tried to cover up mistakes made by other people as the ones that did the deed did it the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 best to ignore the tube shooting as personally I'd not have shouted a potential suicide bomber a warning, and feel very sorry for those guys sent to deal with what could have been a guy able to trigger a bomb with me close had he been warned. The guys who did the dirty work thought they were dealing with the real thing hence the way they did it just a shame the powers that be tried to cover up mistakes made by other people as the ones that did the deed did it the right way. Fair enough Al4x. although back on subject watching the video of the G20 death it just seems thuggish to me. The man did nothing and it looks like the type of behaviour you'd see off some drunken lout on a saturday night, not off a police officer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I think the police were geared up and worked up on the day and, whilst it is harsh to say so, probably expected to be able to give people a bit of a kicking if they did not do as they were told. If this bloke didn't follow the order the copper gave him, I could easily see the copper snapping. Stress does funny things to you. It's all very well saying they should be more controlled (they should), but it's hard to gauge what people will do if they are massively stressed by their environment and someone adds a little more to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy1 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 I think the police were geared up and worked up on the day and, whilst it is harsh to say so, probably expected to be able to give people a bit of a kicking if they did not do as they were told. If this bloke didn't follow the order the copper gave him, I could easily see the copper snapping. Stress does funny things to you. It's all very well saying they should be more controlled (they should), but it's hard to gauge what people will do if they are massively stressed by their environment and someone adds a little more to it. Very true, but at the end of the day, that is why the police are so intensely trained, to make them capable of dealing with stressful situations in a law abiding manner and to not let their personal feelings cloud their judgement. If they cannot do this, then they should not be in the force. I know they are only human and i doubt that i could hold back if faced with violent idiots all day, but they have to act within the law at all times, no questions, or pay the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) I will say what i always say because to me it seems quite apt:- “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.†He was told to move he didnt, he can be clearly seen dithering. he was moved along, and he fell, plain and simple, he had his hands in his pockets and couldnt put them out when he hit the deck. in no way died as a result of being pushed over, is he did we would have dead kids on the playground and on the rugby and football pitch every weekend Edited April 8, 2009 by ph5172 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbithunter2008 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 He looked stoned or ****** to me just taking a slow walk not making a problem for anybody! As for was the force used the said police officer I can only say he must have a small man member. Just a case of a jumped up **** in a police uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboy1 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) ph5172, have you actually watched the video footage? I don't think he was simply moved along and he certainly did'nt fall! I don't know if the guy was a wrongen or not but would you have the same attitude if it had been your father or brother, i very much doubt it. P.s. nice avatar... Edited April 8, 2009 by jonboy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 As for was the force used the said police officer I can only say he must have a small man member. The guy was pushed, I am 16 and a bit stone (but before you say... i have a 32 inch waist and can run 1.5 miles in 8 mins) add 1.5 stone of body armour (depending what one he was wearing) and equipment i weight in at nigh on 18 stone, chances are if i push you you are going to move or fall over, especially if you are walking by crossing your feet and dithering. So are you saying we should ban pusing in the play ground incase somone has a heart attack? Its a simple case of if you are told to move you move, if he was pushed by a bouncer on a sat night, went home and had a heart attack then thats life. Its a sad thing to happen, but he died of a heart attack simple as (its even in the post mortem, that and that he had been drinking) But lets say its a sad thing to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph5172 Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 (edited) ph5172, have you actually watched the video footage? I don't think he was simply moved along and he certainly did'nt fall! I don't know if the guy was a wrongen or not but would you have the same attitude if it had been your father or brother, i very much doubt it. P.s. nice avatar... Yes i have seen the footage he was pushed i can see that but he fell over, he wasnt tripped or bundled to the floor... Edited April 8, 2009 by ph5172 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moses Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 Doesn't look like a home office approved technique to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted April 8, 2009 Report Share Posted April 8, 2009 A very sad incident, and I feel for his family anyone else involved. However the video only shows what happended from a second or so before the push [unless there is some earlier footage I have missed]. We don't know the full facts, had he been abusive, threatening etc a few moments earlier to the officers who then told him to move no??? Was it just due to him not being able to get to his train or due to other matters/involvement. Yes, if it was 'cos he couldn't get to his train then I am sure he would be annoyed and perhaps spout off or become obstructive towards the police, but once an officer asks you to move on, in the case of a possible public order incident [which this was cleary due to the G20] and you ignore them they can use force to move you on. The strike the officer used, looks like a 'home office approved technique' - one that officers are taught to use for just this sort of scenario if soemone is refusing to move on/not moving quickly enough. Again we do not see what else is happening off screen, one of the people that heads over to the fallen man appears to be hooded up with a scarf ofer his lower face [ might be mistaken here] so perhaps the man was closer to the protesters than we can see??? Again without the full evidence it is hard to say what had gone on before to evoke such a reaction, it doesn't appear to be an officer snapping as it was one 'push' with no follow up. Had the officer or officers snapped then it may have meant a follow up to the action. This appeared more controlled. It would be interesting to see if there is any earlier footage on this as when it is released by the press it sometimes only shows what they want it to!!! Will have to wait and see if there is any more information forthcoming...although saying that once the hype has subsided you never seem to get the full facts out to make an informed judgement. Bottom line I suppose is that, knowing there was a protest nearby and loads of police, and you just want to get home and avoid trouble, if an officer tells you to move on...then move on and go home....then there's no problem??!! Again, very sad that he had a heart attack and died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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