Howa 1500 in .223

[Mungler]

I think it's a 1 in 12 twist.

 

Currently using Winchester silvertips 55gr and the groups are erm random.

 

I am not looking to homeload and would like something in plentiful supply at the local gun shop (Winchester, Federal etc).

 

Ta very.

 

 

 

P.S.

 

Also, anyone know where I can get a timney trigger kit on the cheap?

[dodeer]

My mate with a thumbhole Howa uses Federal 40g B/T and find them very good.

I would say Sportsmans would be your cheapest choice on the trigger.

[AndyCM]

Sako Accutips 50g - extremely accurate at 3230 fps (per spec)

[Dunkield]

Try Federal 55 or 40grn V shok's

I have bucket loads of 50grn American Eagle hollowpoints you can try at Bisley

[DaveK]

Prvi has to be worth a punt Mung. I've tried a few through my Howa and wasn't disappointed.

[garyb]

Norma 55grn softpoints or Sako if you can get it.

[al4x]

if the groups are that random is it definitely an ammo issue? mine is on 55g norma's at the moment and really seems to like them but I'm yet to try anything else.

 

Quite glad at this point that screw cutting it was expensive

[henry d]

Why not reload............groups tighter than a foxes farter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know you want to

[Dunkield]

'With respect' as it isn't new, the gun (and to some extent the person shooting it) need to be taken out of the equation before introducing any more unknowns

[chrisv]

My Howa 223 liked Hornady Varmint Express (40grain Vmax)

[Mungler]

Cheers chaps, the general view is that the Howa likes a lighter load.

 

I'll get a bag of 40gr rounds and see what flies best.

 

I am toying with the idea of floating the barrel better and bedding the action. Anyone know of any kits or links? Lots to watch on You Tube - there's even a fella with a video on how to adjust the trigger - that needs looking at as it is f-in awful - snap on or off.

[Vince Green]

First of all, are you sure its 1 in 12? I would have thought 1 in 10 would be more likely. Put a tight patch on the cleaning rod then see how far you have to push the rod into the barrel before it makes exactly one rotation. It should be 10" but it could be 9" or even 8".

 

Twist is critical with .223. You need to choose your bullet according to the twist. Do you know how many rounds it has fired? Those barrels can start to go tits up in as little as a thousand rounds if someone has been banging shed loads of surplus 5.56mm down it at the range. Whatever use its had may be important.

 

The trouble with the .223 is that its low recoil and you can plink away with it all day. I you tried that with a .308/7.62 you would start to find the recoil too punishing after a while and give up. Even as recently as a couple of years ago there was some very cheap military 5.56mm around and it was possible and affordable to put many years worth of normal wear on a barrel in a single day. Once the first couple of millimetres of rifling starts to go the groups start opening up rapidly with those small calibres.

It might be worth having the barrel wear checked by a gunsmith if you are in any doubt. What you describe could be down to barrel erosion. The barrel will still look mint even if the throat is knackered, you can't see it by eye, you need a bore scope to see the wear.

 

It could also be down to a loose element in the scope. It does happen that something comes loose inside under recoil. Try switching scopes.

 

.223s are not usually all that fussy with up to 50-55grn bullets its only normally when you start going up in weight beyond that the problems start.

 

Howa is a good make and their barrels should give you 1"- 1 1/2" at 100yds no problem. The bedding should be good too but if someone has had the rifle apart and not put it back togeather properly that could be a problem. Check all the bolts are tight or get a gunsmith to do it for you That also is critical. Some rifles require the bolts holding the action to be tightened up to a pre specified torque setting and too tight can be as bad as not tight enough.

 

What groups are you getting? You say the groups are random but you don't say how random.

 

If it is 1 in 12 however you will have to stick to the lighter 40grn bullets and thats going to limit your choices of ammo qute badly.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Vince Green

[magman]

Lighter loads would be my choice given the twist rate

[Mungler]

Grouping is 2 together (1/2 inch) and 1 way off (and repeat).

 

My previous .223 was a Steyr Scout and I took it for granted that a .223 would cloverleaf at 100 yards with good quality factory ammo.

 

I don't have the confidence I would want in this at the mo. I will have a tinker and see what happens.

 

The list is as follows:

 

1. change ammo to lighter weight gear

2. lighten trigger - the snap on the trigger probably isn't helping

 

After that, see what happens. If poo, come back on here and **** and moan a bit more.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

P.S.

 

Rifle was previously owned by Logstove off here, and there are no visible signs of *any* use. I would say it was "as new". There is a slight pinch between stock (forend area) and barrel, and if 1 and 2 above don't work, then sand paper is next on the list.

 

Cheers all.

[Vince Green]

The is a possibility thats its barrel "walking" due to it heating up. All barrels shift the point of impact as they get hot but it should only be apparant in very light barrels. If you shoot a number of shots very quickly you might get it but it should be showing up as a line of shot on the target rather than a random group.

[maddog546]

I too couldnt get a tight group on my Remy 700 sps with winchester they were all over the place,tried Sako and they were a little better-finally settled with Norma 55gr Ballistic tips and they will clover leaf at 100 yards.

There was no chance of a worn barrel on my Remy as it was brand new,and before anyone asks I'd put 200 rounds through it before settling the ammo brand favouritism of the rifle.

There is alot of truth in the allowance of the rifle to cool and zeroing should not be rushed as you walk around for ages with a cold barrel until you find a target then shoot ,so there no point in zeroing on a hot barrel as by the time you have warmed it to your assumed zero all the neighbouring wildlife will have gone to ground.

I burnt my hand on the mod of my .270 recently after checking zero,putting 10 rounds through it in 30 mins,couldnt believe the heat retention!!!

[Dunkield]

Grouping is 2 together (1/2 inch) and 1 way off (and repeat).

 

Rifle was previously owned by Logstove off here,

 

2 questions.

 

How long between the three shots?

 

What did longstove shoot through it?

[garyb]

Do you have the same issue with the mod off...

[DaveK]

How about first two rounds okay but slightly expand the barrel so it's touching the stock, ergo third round affected by a change in barrel harmonics?

[Mr_Logic]

First of all, are you sure its 1 in 12? I would have thought 1 in 10 would be more likely. Put a tight patch on the cleaning rod then see how far you have to push the rod into the barrel before it makes exactly one rotation. It should be 10" but it could be 9" or even 8".

 

Twist is critical with .223. You need to choose your bullet according to the twist. Do you know how many rounds it has fired? Those barrels can start to go tits up in as little as a thousand rounds if someone has been banging shed loads of surplus 5.56mm down it at the range. Whatever use its had may be important.

 

The trouble with the .223 is that its low recoil and you can plink away with it all day. I you tried that with a .308/7.62 you would start to find the recoil too punishing after a while and give up. Even as recently as a couple of years ago there was some very cheap military 5.56mm around and it was possible and affordable to put many years worth of normal wear on a barrel in a single day. Once the first couple of millimetres of rifling starts to go the groups start opening up rapidly with those small calibres.

It might be worth having the barrel wear checked by a gunsmith if you are in any doubt. What you describe could be down to barrel erosion. The barrel will still look mint even if the throat is knackered, you can't see it by eye, you need a bore scope to see the wear.

 

It could also be down to a loose element in the scope. It does happen that something comes loose inside under recoil. Try switching scopes.

 

.223s are not usually all that fussy with up to 50-55grn bullets its only normally when you start going up in weight beyond that the problems start.

 

Howa is a good make and their barrels should give you 1"- 1 1/2" at 100yds no problem. The bedding should be good too but if someone has had the rifle apart and not put it back togeather properly that could be a problem. Check all the bolts are tight or get a gunsmith to do it for you That also is critical. Some rifles require the bolts holding the action to be tightened up to a pre specified torque setting and too tight can be as bad as not tight enough.

 

What groups are you getting? You say the groups are random but you don't say how random.

 

If it is 1 in 12 however you will have to stick to the lighter 40grn bullets and thats going to limit your choices of ammo qute badly.

The 223 is generally made with a 1:12 twist barrel; I have never heard of a factory rifle in 1:10. The 1:12 will happily stabilise a 55gr bullet, although both of my 1:12 rifles (including my old Howa) prefer 50s.

[Vince Green]

The 223 is generally made with a 1:12 twist barrel; I have never heard of a factory rifle in 1:10. The 1:12 will happily stabilise a 55gr bullet, although both of my 1:12 rifles (including my old Howa) prefer 50s.

 

1 in 12 was the original rate of twist but fashions change and people are starting to demand the faster twists in the mistaken belief that they are more accurate.

Part of the reason for that is because 8/9/10 are becoming the preferred twist rates as the .223 starts to make real inroads into the target shooting world. What started as a quirky gimmicky form of target shooting has really come into its own in F Class. The faster twists are more accurate at the longer ranges mainly because they allow for the use of heavier bullets but it comes at a price. Very fussy ammunition requirements and require very high quality bullets, Berger and the like.

[Mr_Logic]

The 1:12 twist is perfect for a field rifle, so if you are buying something light barreled, I would expect that.

 

Target rifles need a faster twist than 1:9, but 1:9 is good for an all-purpose rifle. 1:7, or even 1:6.5, is about right for shooting F-class with 223, as you need that to stabilise the 90gr JLK bullet you need... For target work anything slower than 1:8 isn't ideal - with a 75 grain A-max you get a pretty good BC and can start to think about 1K, which with 223 is impressive.

[Vince Green]

There is a brilliant article in the current issue (October) of Sporting Rifle / Target Sports by Laurie Holland in which he sets out the history of twist and bullet weights in the .223 for target and advanced military uses. Like you say they are now using up to 90grn bullets and a 1 in 6.5" barrel to stabilise them. Even the 77-80 grain bullets have been relegated to the sidelines.

 

I'm not sure what the barrel life would be like with these sort of twist rates, short I would imagine because the first hint of wear and the groups will start to open up. Its becoming a very specialised form of shooting. Loading ammunition for it is highly technical. Not really within the capability of the average reloader which restrict the number of shooters who are able to compete effectively. The costs must be pretty prohibitive too which would keep people like me out of it.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Vince Green

[Mr_Logic]

Can't see barrel wear being a massive problem, pressures are standard, velocity low, and 223 is generally fine.

 

Have to admit that I wouldn't mind giving long range 223 a try - it would be highly satisfying to compete with 308 at 1K, with such a tiny little cartridge!

[Vince Green]

At 2800 fps in a barrel with 1 in 6.5mm twist the bullet is rotating at 310,000 rpm. the rifling has to force the bullet to start to spin at that speed within the first few millimetre otherwise it will strip. The work that has to be done by those tiny little lands to overcome the rotational inertia of a 90grain bullet is immense. I can't see it will be that long before the rifiling starts to show signs of breaking down. Not a lot admittedly but enough to start opening up the groups at extreme ranges. these shooters demand the best and I'll bet you are looking at a new barrel every year if you want to stay competitive at the top level.

Top flight TR shooter are looking at a new barrel every 1500 rounds which is about a years worth of competitive shooting with a 7.62 and I would guess these liitle caibres are worse if anything. Thats £800 without all the other expenses. Its a rich mans game now and no mistake.