a question about calibres

[Tom Robinson]

Hi all

I am currently filling in a variation form for my fac licence, i already have a 222 for foxes but I would like something bigger that I could use for deer and fox, at first I thought a 243 but a friend of mine is telling me to go bigger and he suggests a 25-06 or a 6.5×55. I just wondered what your thoughts were on the matter and does anybody use these calibres for deer aswell as fox?

Thank you for any answers

[sonicdmb]

If you already have 222 then going bigger is not a bad idea. .243 is ok for deer but needs careful bullets choice and placement on bigger deer. With most forces giving AOLQ you could get a Deer rifle then use it for fox when required. of the two mentioned I'd go with 6.5 x 55 its a very good and widely used large game round. There is nothing to stop you getting a 308 which will do everything you can shoot here. Including Fox, Deer, Boar etc, just because you don't shoot them now doesn't mean you never will. The right tool for the job will mean more opportunity.

[seeker]

Have a read of the latest HO Guidance on Firearms 2014 . Sec 13 (×) will give you an idea of where your Firearms Licensing should be coming from and let you answer the questions before they're asked!

I use a 6.5 and have bullets from 90 to 156 grain. In an earlier guidance I seem to remember it was listed for both fox and deer ..

[shootgun]

.270 will give anything you need. Hard hitting flat shooting round...

[Bewsher500]

why has no-one asked what deer?

 

muntjac or 250lb red stags?

 

.243 is too close to .222 to justify IMO

 

if you have no experience of larger cartridges then I don't imagine a .270 or 25-06 is your first and best bet,

 

until we have an idea of the size limit of your target it is just a free for all on what other people like.

what is your budget?

what ammo can you get locally?

will you be reloading?

 

any "deer legal" calibre will do the job but what fits your needs is dependant on a lot of things.

 

I use a .222 on roe in Scotland. best choice I could have made

that said a .243 will do the job admirably but could lead to you not using the .222 for foxes, which would be a mistake

 

a 6.5x55, 308, .270 or anything 6.5mm and up will allow you to shoot anything that walks in the UK with confidence

[Blunderbust]

Get a 308, plenty of choice for ammo and will cover you for every thing in the UK and most other Euro countries.

[Tom Robinson]

It's mostly going to be muntjac and roe, and I do want to have a go at the reloading

[casts_by_fly]

As noted above, basically what you want is a deer cartridge with an AOLQ condition (thus you can use it for fox). A 243 is probably a bit close if you have any intentions of shooting bigger deer. If you are absolutely only ever going to shoot roe and mutjac then it would be hard to beat (the 222 would have been a nice option if it were legal on the roe). But since you already have the 222, then why limit yourself? In that case, I'd have a look around what your local shop stocks for rounds, bullets, and powder. All of the cartridges listed from 243 up to 308 will be more than fine for what you want. Find what you can get locally and easily and start from there. Chances are your shop has 308 and 243 in good supply. A 6.5x55 is probably around. They might deal in 270 or 25-06, maybe 260 rem or 7mm-08. I'd be happy with all of them for your purposes.

 

Given the choice among all of them? I'd probably grab a 308 if your handloading and it is your first one to learn on. It is forgiving, the big bullets are easy to manipulate, and components are common. Load it down with a PSP 150gr and you've got a nice, easy shooting gun for small and medium deer. If you do decide to go for bigger reds, load it full with a 165 and you're golden.

 

Don't forget that the 222 is legal for muntjac while your variation is in.

 

thanks,

rick

[neutron619]

Given the choice among all of them? I'd probably grab a 308 if your handloading and it is your first one to learn on. It is forgiving, the big bullets are easy to manipulate, and components are common. Load it down with a PSP 150gr and you've got a nice, easy shooting gun for small and medium deer. If you do decide to go for bigger reds, load it full with a 165 and you're golden.

 

+1. If you hand load, .308 is the way to go.

 

I have a 110gr V-Max load that nudges 3300fps (H335) which is as flat as anything you'll ever need and is somewhat "explosive" on impact. That'll do for Charlie.

 

For deer it's a mixture of SPs in 110gr, 150gr and 180gr depending on where I'm going and what I expect to see, but I tend to prefer the slower heavy-for-calibre bullets as they tend to do a lot less damage on the way through. (If you think all of those are too much for muntjac, thank again - they're tough little *******.)

 

I also have a Trail Boss load that comes out at between 850-1050fps, depending on how I load it, which shoots like a very big .22LR subsonic round using cast bullets. It has no more ME than an HMR. I've never used it on anything living and I don't plan to, but it's point and click out to 50-70 yards and would probably do for bunnies and hares if you had nothing else, without spreading them across the field too much.

 

My .308 is the only rifle I own and the only one I'll ever need (though I have a catalogue of other calibres to buy if / when I can justify them - just because I'm curious and like reloading ).

Edited September 1, 2014 by neutron619

[fieldwanderer]

I've been considering exactly the same thing but with the complication of wanting to re - barrel my .22-250 for something deer legal when the current barrel dies which restricts me somewhat.

 

when I applied for the .22-250, the farmer asked me to thin the roe out on his land, I got on the phone to the f.l.o and asked to change the application to a .243 but he started going on about dsc1 and land inspections so I left it be. I'll do the dsc1 sometime soon and get a few paid stalks under my belt, hopefully they'll be easier going when it comes round. A .308 would be my first choice as the action's right for it but I don't think it's very likely living in such a flat county and needing the rifle mostly for fox and fairly small deer, I'm hoping for something bigger than .243 but, sadly, we're at their mercy.

[welshwarrior]

Personally with your 222 I'd go 308 as you then have a nice coverage the 243 is a bit to close to 222 the 6.5x55 is a nice option and another possible to me would be 270.

[Harnser]

For the one gun stalker as in my case the venerable .308 . Or a very close second ,the mighty .270 . With either of these two calibres you will be able to address anything on four legs in this country .

 

Harnser

[kent]

Ok I have actually killed plenty deer with 308. 30-06, 7-08 and .243. The only thing in .243 is you need to understand bullets are not equal because they are the same weight. A 100 grain Nosler partition will go clean through a big red giving decent blood strike out the other side. I sold all by bigger rifles and unless I was going to Africa or hunting Boar I shouldn't buy any bigger gun within the UK again.

.243 win is no .222 (which will also drop Reds just fine in counties were its allowed but better put in the right hands) Case in point it was the chosen rifle calibre issued to Government paid cullers in NZ. .243 will do near 4000 FPS with a 55 grn bullet and holds not far off double the energy capability of the triple two .

At the end of the day its up to the guy himself what he chooses but let me say very, very few can shoot a lighter weight stalking rifle as well with a 150 grn bullet as they can one with 100 grn (off hand, kneeling, improvised sitting, off a fence top from on top of a wall etc.

The only time bigger heavier bullets matter is when you make a bad shot and the downside? Cavitation pulling guts through diaphragms with the vacuum created

Downside? well its barrel life (not a problem for most of us) .308 lasts a lot longer but not so good a varmint / fox gun as the .243 which is a big play off if you doing foxes, crows small deer up to fallow and Sika. I read an article from that Ray Charles bloke saying don't get a .243 for Sika and the bloke don't even shoot them, it was all third part stuff from a mate (who didn't use a .243 either) Trust me it kills Sika just fine if you understand bullets selection and can shoot worth a jot

[scobydog]

.270 will give anything you need. Hard hitting flat shooting round...

 

+1

[al4x]

The simple answer is chop in the tripple for a .243 and job done. It's about the best fox round out there and plenty for muntjac roe and fallow if you fancy having a go at something bigger. There is a large range of bullet weights available and it's dead easy to reload.

The plus with one gun is being able to spend more on it and the scope and if you have one then you can't take the wrong gun out.

[Blunderbust]

The simple answer is chop in the tripple for a .243 and job done. It's about the best fox round out there and plenty for muntjac roe and fallow if you fancy having a go at something bigger. There is a large range of bullet weights available and it's dead easy to reload.

The plus with one gun is being able to spend more on it and the scope and if you have one then you can't take the wrong gun out.

 

Yep, that is right but I would go for .308, it just makes the task so much easier. By the way I do not own a .308 but have shot loads of them. Indeed I have shot most calibres and cant go past the 308 for all round usability.

[Guest stevo]

.270 for me

[kent]

 

Yep, that is right but I would go for .308, it just makes the task so much easier. By the way I do not own a .308 but have shot loads of them. Indeed I have shot most calibres and cant go past the 308 for all round usability.

 

Yet the guy you quote actually owns the gun he is talking of and makes no comment against a .308. Perhaps your comment could / should be seen in context by those who have actually owned and used both? The .243 is actually a .308 that shoots 6mm bullets at the end of the day, the question is " can a thirty cal be a better vermin and fox gun?" OR " is a 30 cal going to give me any real tangible benefit during the deerstalking I am likely to do to warrant sacrificing the great and efficient range of 6mm bullets that are easily available?"

 

55 grn bullets pushed over 3700- 4000 fps, 70-85 pushed around 3500 fps, 95 and 100 at 2850-3100. Fast fragmenting, high BC, Twin core, standard jacket deer bullets all at your local RFD. That's taking on the fastest of the .224s like the 22-250 and ,220 swift, finding its uniqueness in the mid range (the lightest end of the 6.5mm bullets and then finally pushing a ballistic efficient 95grn -100 / 105 plus deer bullet .

 

Meanwhile the .30 has 100-110 grain varmint bullets that offer poor performance in flight against a 6mm and can be hens teeth to find locally, 125 grn as a fast deer bullet and a 150 grn niche were it really fits and the ability to untilise 180-200 a little worse than a 30-06 or the magnum 30s. not arguing that a 150 grain at 2800 fps is a good deer bullet just that the fact that the .308 does not offer the cross over through so many areas of a .243 win

 

Face facts .308s are good sure but they actually meet a radically changed brief, perhaps targets, deer and boar they are the better choice

[Guest stevo]

Kent I agree for the most . However from my own findings . I rekon you might struggle with twist rates . I think you may have problems shooting the lightest/fastest to the heaviest/slowest practical weight bullets in 6mm and and to be consistently accurate from 5he same twist rate . However my statement would only stand depending on how accurate he would need it to be . At both ends of the scale . Just my opinion .

 

Hope your feeling better anyway mate .

 

Stevo

[kent]

Kent I agree for the most . However from my own findings . I rekon you might struggle with twist rates . I think you may have problems shooting the lightest/fastest to the heaviest/slowest practical weight bullets in 6mm and and to be consistently accurate from 5he same twist rate . However my statement would only stand depending on how accurate he would need it to be . At both ends of the scale . Just my opinion .

 

Hope your feeling better anyway mate .

 

Stevo

 

All I can say is 55-100 grain is very stable in mine. Do not expect BR accuracy from twin core bullets in any calibre 1 1/2" at 100 and 3-4" at 200 is about the score - that said I have shot a few one hole screamers with pro hunters (a single core 100 grn) at 100 and minute of a roe heart much further and tiny little bug holes out to 300 with 55grn noslers, some guns don't like some bullets but often a few changes and the load shoots ( I never got 85 grn softpoints from Hornaday to work in mine and it don't like 95 grn SST till they are pushed way too hard). Do not leave std factory twist though its what made the gun so popular, 15 years on and counting though I had my dalliances but they all went in time as regards fox and deer crossover, 6mm Remington is said to be better but it lost the popularity stakes due to its faster twist not being compatible with so light a bullet (maybe it was too soon for America to except metrication ). My friend owned one of those and liked it but for me I like getting brass and such real easy so I shouldn't buy one even if it had a better barrel twist rate.

Remember all those 6mm bullets are really aimed at the factory twist .243 user during development

[Blunderbust]

 

Yet the guy you quote actually owns the gun he is talking of and makes no comment against a .308. Perhaps your comment could / should be seen in context by those who have actually owned and used both? The .243 is actually a .308 that shoots 6mm bullets at the end of the day, the question is " can a thirty cal be a better vermin and fox gun?" OR " is a 30 cal going to give me any real tangible benefit during the deerstalking I am likely to do to warrant sacrificing the great and efficient range of 6mm bullets that are easily available?"

 

55 grn bullets pushed over 3700- 4000 fps, 70-85 pushed around 3500 fps, 95 and 100 at 2850-3100. Fast fragmenting, high BC, Twin core, standard jacket deer bullets all at your local RFD. That's taking on the fastest of the .224s like the 22-250 and ,220 swift, finding its uniqueness in the mid range (the lightest end of the 6.5mm bullets and then finally pushing a ballistic efficient 95grn -100 / 105 plus deer bullet .

 

Meanwhile the .30 has 100-110 grain varmint bullets that offer poor performance in flight against a 6mm and can be hens teeth to find locally, 125 grn as a fast deer bullet and a 150 grn niche were it really fits and the ability to untilise 180-200 a little worse than a 30-06 or the magnum 30s. not arguing that a 150 grain at 2800 fps is a good deer bullet just that the fact that the .308 does not offer the cross over through so many areas of a .243 win

 

Face facts .308s are good sure but they actually meet a radically changed brief, perhaps targets, deer and boar they are the better choice

 

Kent, you can be such a bore some times, you cackle on as if you are the be all and end all of every thing. I do own a 243 and have done for over 4 years I do not deny the quality of the round and its versatility. I mention the 308 due to the fact that if one is looking for a do it all rifle the 308 would be the one I would go for as it will cover him for Fox and all UK Deer and although he might not be thinking it now, he might in the future get an invite or buy a trip abroad for something bigger, Boar for example. Your opinion about the 243 on larger Deer is your opinion and I do not deny that if a bullet is placed in the right place it will drop them. However if I, like yourself was only able to achieve a 4" group at 200 meters I would not be confident that I could do the job with the .243. That is why I personally have a 300 win mag to do the job and it will cover me if I am a couple of inches out. But then when I go stalking, if I am not able to achieve a sub 1" group at 100 yards I would not be going stalking.

 

I gave the OP my opinion based on what I would do, you have given your opinion and that is what the forum is all about. I do not need you to tell me basics about calibres and necked down cases, as I said you are a bore but please go away and bore some one else.

[dodeer]

I have shot a lot of Deer and other quarry with a .25-06 using 100/ 117 gr SST.

 

Very competent for UK use.

 

I tell any newbie to stalking or hunting to buy one.

 

Rest of Europe a .300 or 8x68 takes some beating for an all round calibre.

[neutron619]

Kent I agree for the most . However from my own findings . I rekon you might struggle with twist rates . I think you may have problems shooting the lightest/fastest to the heaviest/slowest practical weight bullets in 6mm and and to be consistently accurate from 5he same twist rate . However my statement would only stand depending on how accurate he would need it to be . At both ends of the scale . Just my opinion .

 

Likewise, I agree with kent for the most part, but I've also read plenty of times about stalkers who have a job stabilizing 100gr pills in their .243, drop down to 85gr and then end up buying another rifle for larger deer.

 

I too have no argument with anyone who says that a 6mm will drop a big red with the right placement / bullet, but I'm relatively new to stalking myself, so I like the bit of "margin" I get with a .30.

 

If you want to talk crossover calibres, then a .25 is a good compromise, but I wouldn't go for the .25-06 as dodeer suggests. No need for a big case like that on a .25. The .257 Roberts (the "Bob") is a much better fox / deer calibre IMHO. You can still get your super-fast, super-flat 60gr fox load (legal for muntjac also) but the 100-120gr loads are more modest, recoil a bit less and use a lot less powder than the '06. You'll do less damage to the deer on the way through and getting a 100gr+ bullet through it won't be marginal (or luck) as far as twist rates go. You will probably have to reload for it however, which means my original suggestion of a .308 remains my recommendation.

 

For the record, P.O. Ackley thought the Bob was the best all round calibre. I'd certainly buy one in preference to any other .25 and certainly in preference to a .243. If I could afford a second rifle, I'd probably have put the variation in the day I got my FAC.

Edited September 2, 2014 by neutron619

[kent]

Kent, you can be such a bore some times, you cackle on as if you are the be all and end all of every thing. I do own a 243 and have done for over 4 years I do not deny the quality of the round and its versatility. I mention the 308 due to the fact that if one is looking for a do it all rifle the 308 would be the one I would go for as it will cover him for Fox and all UK Deer and although he might not be thinking it now, he might in the future get an invite or buy a trip abroad for something bigger, Boar for example. Your opinion about the 243 on larger Deer is your opinion and I do not deny that if a bullet is placed in the right place it will drop them. However if I, like yourself was only able to achieve a 4" group at 200 meters I would not be confident that I could do the job with the .243. That is why I personally have a 300 win mag to do the job and it will cover me if I am a couple of inches out. But then when I go stalking, if I am not able to achieve a sub 1" group at 100 yards I would not be going stalking.

 

I gave the OP my opinion based on what I would do, you have given your opinion and that is what the forum is all about. I do not need you to tell me basics about calibres and necked down cases, as I said you are a bore but please go away and bore some one else.

Just saying it like it is no third party direct experience and ownership of both. Perhaps you can explain to the OP why he cant find light frangible varmint ammo for his new .308 in the local RFD and then struggles to get the components to reload? On a closed cert why he cant find foxing permission so easy etc. etc. The thing is its not my personal ability with twin cores in question (that is not what I said please don't twist the wording to suit) its the design parameters of the bullet does not include bug holes in paper! 3-4" on a red at 200 yards into the heart area and its job done and I include the less than perfect shooter error in that! if you want higher accuracy then shoot a single core but you wont get the same opposite side strike! Hey the other option is to place a still lighter bullet better 1" at 100 yards is not needed in a stalking gun shot at big deer. You know what I have attended quite a few DSC1 tests and recon I could count on one hand the amount of 1" scoring ring placements I have seen through the shooting test and I include the days were you could recognise the right curly shape and the scoring rings!

I think that's quite funny to say you wont shoot unless you can do 1" and then you have a win mag to cover you if your "a couple of inches out", hey you have your thoughts. The forgotten aspect is the bigger the gun and the heavier the bullet, lighter the rifle the harder it is too shoot real well under field improvised conditions so upping the calibre is very much a trap for the unwary.

You know a senior member of the BDS complied a load of data on deer shot and distance run etc.( just prior to the new changes in England & Wales on calibres) and found evidence for the staggering fact that it made no difference, it was all down to placement and if the deer was alert to the stalkers presence. He took his results from Scotland and inc .222

Edited September 2, 2014 by kent

[Blunderbust]

Just saying it like it is no third party direct experience and ownership of both. Perhaps you can explain to the OP why he cant find light frangible varmint ammo for his new .308 in the local RFD and then struggles to get the components to reload? On a closed cert why he cant find foxing permission so easy etc. etc. The thing is its not my personal ability with twin cores in question (that is not what I said please don't twist the wording to suit) its the design parameters of the bullet does not include bug holes in paper! 3-4" on a red at 200 yards into the heart area and its job done and I include the less than perfect shooter error in that! if you want higher accuracy then shoot a single core but you wont get the same opposite side strike! Hey the other option is to place a still lighter bullet better 1" at 100 yards is not needed in a stalking gun shot at big deer. You know what I have attended quite a few DSC1 tests and recon I could count on one hand the amount of 1" scoring ring placements I have seen through the shooting test and I include the days were you could recognise the right curly shape and the scoring rings!

I think that's quite funny to say you wont shoot unless you can do 1" and then you have a win mag to cover you if your "a couple of inches out", hey you have your thoughts. The forgotten aspect is the bigger the gun and the heavier the bullet, lighter the rifle the harder it is too shoot real well under field improvised conditions so upping the calibre is very much a trap for the unwary.

You know a senior member of the BDS complied a load of data on deer shot and distance run etc.( just prior to the new changes in England & Wales on calibres) and found evidence for the staggering fact that it made no difference, it was all down to placement and if the deer was alert to the stalkers presence. He took his results from Scotland and inc .222

 

Yawwwwwwwwn.