Shoot first, think afterwards

[ordnance]

 

 

You do try and always bring a negative aspect to any UK police shooting don't you? It gets rather tiresome especially as you keep hinting that you are 'in the business' yourself. If you were 'in the business' and were also aware of the situation, the threat and the actions of the suspect you might see things differently.

Shooting an innocent man on a train i caint see that as anything but negative, if you anything possessive about that that up to you. PS I live in the UK and see the police forces in the UK as some of the best in the world, that doesn't mean i doint think they should be accountable for their actions, just like everyone else.

Edited February 18, 2017 by ordnance

[12gauge82]

There's a couple on here who seem to take great pleasure in bashing the police at every opportunity, particularly armed officers. If those doing the bashing think it's so easy why not sign up and sort it out since they've got all the answers. The police carry out thousands of armed operations every year, you don't hear of all the good work they do, only when there's a questionable outcome and often times the fault still isn't down to the officer behind the trigger. Those on here who are intent on bashing the police might want to think about the thousands of brave officers in this country, both armed and unarmed, who are prepared to put themselves in harms way to protect the innocent, even the people who continuously bash them, I really don't get it.

Shooting an innocent man on a train i caint see that as anything but negative, if you anything possessive about that that up to you. PS I live in the UK and see the police forces in the UK as some of the best in the world, that doesn't mean i doint think they should be accountable for their actions, just like everyone else.

This thread isn't specifically about that though is it.

[UKPoacher]

Shooting an innocent man on a train i caint see that as anything but negative, if you anything possessive about that that up to you.

 

It is all negative with you. IF you were an armed police officer as you often try to intimate you would understand that sometimes honest mistakes are made. But then again. if you were actually an armed police officer you wouldn't have to resort to copy / pasting chunks of legislation and protocols you've found on the Internet to back up your misguided opinions.

 

If you honestly believe that someone has a gun, bomb or other lethal device and you perceive that there is an imminent risk to the safety of yourself or others then you are legally and morally right to pull the trigger. That is the law and there are procedures in place to investigate those factors and bring prosecutions if anyone is found to have acted outside the law.

 

If you believe that someone is about to pull a gun on you and you shoot first then it will be up to you to explain that reasoning at length and in public. That is not the same as believing that you are in a 40mph zone when in fact you are in a 30mph zone as the default position is that in built up areas it is 30 unless you see signs to the contrary.

[ordnance]

 

 

Those on here who are intent on bashing the police might want to think about the thousands of brave officers in this country, both armed and unarmed, who are prepared to put themselves in harms way to protect the innocent, even the people who continuously bash them, I really don't get it.

I doint see the view that the police should be accountable for their actions, and face the coincidences when they get it wrong as police bashing do you. ?

 

 

 

It is all negative with you. IF you were an armed police officer as you often try to intimate you would understand that sometimes honest mistakes are made. But then again. if you were actually an armed police officer you wouldn't have to resort to copy / pasting chunks of legislation and protocols you've found on the Internet to back up your misguided opinions.

What misguided opinions. ? that the police should be accountable actions, you see that as misguided. I am amassed that a chief Constable would think that it was a bad thing that police would have to think before shooting someone.

 

 

 

 

The police carry out thousands of armed operations every year, you don't hear of all the good work they do, only when there's a questionable outcome and often times the fault still isn't down to the officer behind the trigger.

I am not sure what your point is they should they be parsed for carrying out thousands of armed operations every year, that could cover stray animals and nemurious other non events.

 

 

 

Police send helicopter, armed officers and dog unit to house after reports of a man brandishing a weapon - only to find it was a gardener with a RAKE

Edited February 18, 2017 by ordnance

[12gauge82]

 

 

I am not sure what your point is they should they be parsed for carrying out thousands of armed operations every year, that could cover stray animals and nemurious other non events.

 

I'm not sure what your point is, you are continually bashing the cops on this forum, so is your point the police are human and occasionally make mistakes? Or is it that you have a chip on your shoulder, turned you down for a job maybe? I find your attitude very odd.

[UKPoacher]

I'm not sure what your point is, you are continually bashing the cops on this forum, so is your point the police are human and occasionally make mistakes? Or is it that you have a chip on your shoulder, turned you down for a job maybe? I find your attitude very odd.

 

Exactly. Every single thread on police firearms and he's all over it like a rash with his biased and ill informed opinions. Like you I think that he has a personal agenda.Frustrated applicant or entrenched anti-establishment stance.

 

 

• there were a total of 14,753 police firearms operations in the year ending March 2016; this represents a slight increase of 68 (0.5%) police firearms operations when compared with the previous year
• in the year ending March 2016, 85% of firearms operations involved Armed Response Vehicles (ARVs), compared with 84% in the previous year
• there were seven incidents in which police discharged firearms in the year ending March 2016, up from six incidents in the previous year
• there were 5,639 authorised firearms officers (AFOs) on 31 March 2016; a decrease of eight AFOs when compared with the previous year

 

So there are 5,600 firearms officers and there were 14,000 firearms incidents in England and Wales in 2015 - 16 yet only 7 shots were fired. Hardly seems like the Gung-Ho approach Ordnance continually claims. I suppose when the nearest you have been to danger is 'Call of Duty' you can believe any mistakes can easily be rectified by stopping the game and starting all over again.

Edited February 19, 2017 by UKPoacher

[Newbie to this]

Tell that to the family of Charles da Silva e de Menezes.[/size]

 

Let's not forget the circumstances surrounding this event and that although innocent of terrorism he was NOT innocent.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Newbie to this

[Kalahari]

Last time I looked, being an illegal immigrant wasn't a capital offence. Some people on hear seem to be all over anybody who criticizes the police, but they blindly refuse to see that the police are not always right and at times the law needs to step in.

 

David.

[toontastic]

Ordnance, what has police responding to reports of an armed man only to arrive on scene and find its a false alarm got to do with anything.

[12gauge82]

Ordnance, what has police responding to reports of an armed man only to arrive on scene and find its a false alarm got to do with anything.

Just more police bashing I suspect.

[UKPoacher]

Tell that to the family of Charles da Silva e de Menezes.[/size]

 

Let's not forget the circumstances surrounding this event and that although innocent of terrorism he was NOT innocent.

 

I can't go along with that train of thought. There was a high level of threat from suicide bombers following the incidents on the previous day. The police had information of a possible terrorist cell in a building and were keeping obs on it. The guy came out, was clocked by the officers and they believed that he resembled one of the suspects. He was followed onto a bus and then he got off near a tube station, made a quick call on his mobile and got back on the bus. It turned out that the tube station had been closed. The officers did not know that. So him getting off and back on the same bus took on a more suspicious element. Then after entering another tube station he suddenly started running to get onto a train before the doors closed. Again, that was seen as suspicious given that it is a regular tactic used by persons under surveillance to shake off their tail. Three unfortunate coincidences in the light of the terror threat made the police believe that he was a terrorist and may have been carrying a suicide vest. So they made the decision at the top level to eliminate him believing that there was an imminent threat to the public.

 

Now lets say that he had been a terrorist and they had let him get on the tube train and ride off only to blow up the train mid station. The very same officers who Ordnance cannot help himself from criticising for eliminating a suspect would be criticised for not doing so.

 

As for his stance on the feelings of family members having an influence on the decision making process; you have only to cast your minds back a couple of months to the M62 shooting. All those friends and family bleating about their poor office clerk of a son never hurting a fly and the police planting the gun that he would never had had. Strange how other members of the same community claim that he was a gangster and regularly carried a gun

[ordnance]

Ordnance, what has police responding to reports of an armed man only to arrive on scene and find its a false alarm got to do with anything.

Over reaction here two local cops would be sent to that type of call depending on the area, then again the police have nothing to be concerned about here.

As for police bashing i doint think i have posted any police bashing on this thread. Some see wanting the police to be accountable for their actions as police bashing i see it as common sense.

 

 

 

So they made the decision at the top level to eliminate him believing that there was an imminent threat to the public.

Easy to say when it is a stranger, would you have the same attitude if it was a member of your family was mistaken for a terrorist and shot. Of coarse you would the police made a mistake these things happen.

Edited February 19, 2017 by ordnance

[ordnance]

 

Exactly. Every single thread on police firearms and he's all over it like a rash with his biased and ill informed opinions. Like you I think that he has a personal agenda.Frustrated applicant or entrenched anti-establishment stance.

 

 

So there are 5,600 firearms officers and there were 14,000 firearms incidents in England and Wales in 2015 - 16 yet only 7 shots were fired. Hardly seems like the Gung-Ho approach Ordnance continually claims. I suppose when the nearest you have been to danger is 'Call of Duty' you can believe any mistakes can easily be rectified by stopping the game and starting all over again.

If most of the calls are for stray dogs, people gardening using a dangerous rake etc, its hardly surprising they only fired 7 shots intentionally, i would bet they had more than 7 negligent discharges. I doint think i posted they were gung-ho maybe you could show the post i said that. ?

[ordnance]

 

 

All those friends and family bleating about their poor office clerk of a son never hurting a fly and the police planting the gun that he would never had had. Strange how other members of the same community claim that he was a gangster and regularly carried a gun

So you have made your mind up what happened before there is even an investigation, why bother with an investigation they should ring you and you could use your crystal ball and your psychic powers to tell them what and how it went down. Its biased attitudes like yours that show why there needs to be independent investigations after these type of incidents.

[UKPoacher]

I take it that you can give details on how many calls regards firearms incidents turn out to be non-firearm related? Thought not.

 

And how do you know that an incident reported as being a firearms incident isn't without responding to it?

 

Let's turn your arguments around and stand them on their head. If someone believes that a person is illegally carrying a firearm and take the trouble to phone that in, wouldn't you expect that to be taken seriously? What if your precious family member who you keep referring to was killed by someone who had been reported as carrying a gun and the police hadn't bothered to look for them?

 

You keep bashing on about innocent family members being killed by police, but what about the innocent family members who have been protected from harm by those same police?

 

Why is it that you keep on about armed police not being accountable for their actions when everyone can see that they are accountable and always have been.

 

You obviously have an agenda. Why don't you come clean and admit it instead of this repeated nonsense about UK armed police officers that makes you look like a bigoted idiot?

[Walker570]

I take it that you can give details on how many calls regards firearms incidents turn out to be non-firearm related? Thought not.

 

And how do you know that an incident reported as being a firearms incident isn't without responding to it?

 

Let's turn your arguments around and stand them on their head. If someone believes that a person is illegally carrying a firearm and take the trouble to phone that in, wouldn't you expect that to be taken seriously? What if your precious family member who you keep referring to was killed by someone who had been reported as carrying a gun and the police hadn't bothered to look for them?

 

You keep bashing on about innocent family members being killed by police, but what about the innocent family members who have been protected from harm by those same police?

 

Why is it that you keep on about armed police not being accountable for their actions when everyone can see that they are accountable and always have been.

 

You obviously have an agenda. Why don't you come clean and admit it instead of this repeated nonsense about UK armed police officers that makes you look like a bigoted idiot?

Amen to that.

 

Kill a human being and regardless of your station, job, position, rank etc etc etc., you have to stand up personally in front of the Coroner and explain your actions. It is normal for the Coroner to make his/her appraisal and decision before criminal procedures commence. We were always reminded of this. This ain't paint ball games. It is taken very seriously. There were always those officers willing to make derogatory comments about Firearms Trained but usually because they themselves could not meet the mental and physical standards required.

[Lord v]

There was an incident near where I grew up, probably nearly 20/25 years ago.

 

A man, well known dodgy character. Previous arrests for various violent offences and assorted thefts. A few short custodials and a lot of community orders.

 

Walks into pub carrying a black bin bag with a long object inside.

 

Proceeds to get tanked up. Starts spouting about having a shotgun he shouldn't, how his estranged wife is a total **** and has it coming etc.....

 

Landlord gets concerned and asks him if the shotgun is in the bag. He is told it is. Landlord asks him to leave and rings the police. He knows the chaps name so the police are told this.

 

Armed police respond and intercept the chap a mile or so down the road. He is carrying the black bin bag under his arm, similar to how you would carry a shotgun. He is belligerent, sounding off against the cops, his wife etc. Says he has a shotgun and starts waving the bag around . Points it like a gun and starts to move towards the police.

 

As an armed officer would you take the shot?

[12gauge82]

I take it that you can give details on how many calls regards firearms incidents turn out to be non-firearm related? Thought not.

 

And how do you know that an incident reported as being a firearms incident isn't without responding to it?

 

Let's turn your arguments around and stand them on their head. If someone believes that a person is illegally carrying a firearm and take the trouble to phone that in, wouldn't you expect that to be taken seriously? What if your precious family member who you keep referring to was killed by someone who had been reported as carrying a gun and the police hadn't bothered to look for them?

 

You keep bashing on about innocent family members being killed by police, but what about the innocent family members who have been protected from harm by those same police?

 

Why is it that you keep on about armed police not being accountable for their actions when everyone can see that they are accountable and always have been.

 

You obviously have an agenda. Why don't you come clean and admit it instead of this repeated nonsense about UK armed police officers that makes you look like a bigoted idiot?

+2

[12gauge82]

There was an incident near where I grew up, probably nearly 20/25 years ago.

 

A man, well known dodgy character. Previous arrests for various violent offences and assorted thefts. A few short custodials and a lot of community orders.

 

Walks into pub carrying a black bin bag with a long object inside.

 

Proceeds to get tanked up. Starts spouting about having a shotgun he shouldn't, how his estranged wife is a total **** and has it coming etc.....

 

Landlord gets concerned and asks him if the shotgun is in the bag. He is told it is. Landlord asks him to leave and rings the police. He knows the chaps name so the police are told this.

 

Armed police respond and intercept the chap a mile or so down the road. He is carrying the black bin bag under his arm, similar to how you would carry a shotgun. He is belligerent, sounding off against the cops, his wife etc. Says he has a shotgun and starts waving the bag around . Points it like a gun and starts to move towards the police.

 

As an armed officer would you take the shot?

Should ask ordinance, he's got all the answers and is obviously an expert, his experience must come from hours of computer games.

[GingerCat]

He'd still be in the canteen telling everyone how they should do their jobs as well as him I suspect.

[Lord v]

Should ask ordinance, he's got all the answers and is obviously an expert, his experience must come from hours of computer games.

I'm very interested in his response.

 

I can then tell him how it turns out...

[ordnance]

 

Why is it that you keep on about armed police not being accountable for their actions when everyone can see that they are accountable and always have been.

You obviously have an agenda. Why don't you come clean and admit it instead of this repeated nonsense about UK armed police officers that makes you look like a bigoted idiot?

Why do you keep going on about UK police forces, i live in the UK and have already posted that they are amongst the best police forces in the world and i would put the PSNI up there who are all armed, so how would i have an issue with armed police. What part of that do you not understand. You are back to your old habit of making things up that people have said, and when asked to back it up you caint.

 

 

 

And how do you know that an incident reported as being a firearms incident isn't without responding to it?

Again making things up, i did not say they shouldn't respond i questioned the level of response, do you understand the difference. ? PS Stop the name calling, people are allowed to have a different opinion to you that doesn't make them an idiot.

Edited February 19, 2017 by ordnance

[12gauge82]

I'm very interested in his response.

 

I can then tell him how it turns out...

I'm very interested in his response to.

Come on ordinance, your very good at critiquing the police with hindsight and you know what the outcome will be, let's see how you do with this?

[UKPoacher]

Why do you keep going on about UK police forces, i live in the UK and have already posted that they are amongst the best police forces in the world and i would put the PSNI up there who are all armed, so how would i have an issue with armed police. What part of that do you not understand. You are back to your old habit of making things up that people have said, and when asked to back it up you caint.

 

Again making things up, i did not say they shouldn't respond i questioned the level of response, do you understand the difference. ? PS Stop the name calling, people are allowed to have a different opinion to you that doesn't make them an idiot.

 

Instead of inferring that most police firearms incidents are discovered not to be and not having any facts to back that up, or telling us that you bet that there were more than the 7 declared actual use of firearms again without any proof whatsoever to back your statement up, and making comments like: "Being an armed police officer in most of the UK is safer than a lot of occupations." and then posting statistics that show only five of the thousands of occupations being more dangerous, perhaps you could actually put up something to support your views.

 

Because without anything to support your opinions you just come across as a bigot with an agenda to undermine UK police officers.

[Newbie to this]

Last time I looked, being an illegal immigrant wasn't a capital offence. Some people on hear seem to be all over anybody who criticizes the police, but they blindly refuse to see that the police are not always right and at times the law needs to step in.

 

David.

 

But being an illegal immigrant gave him cause to try and evade the police and stupidly he ran into a packed tube station in a time of high terror alert just after tube bombings.

 

Did he deserve to get shot? No, but the fact still remains if he had returned home when his visa expired then he would probably still be alive today, but one thing is for sure he wouldn't have been shot dead in a London tube station. So I refer to my earlier post NOT innocent.