Vince Green

In 1914 the German Von Sclieffan plan for Germany to invade France involved scheduled rail services to move German troops, in huge numbers, up to French and Belgian borders. It happened and WW1 was the result. Once on the ground and on the march to Paris, Instead of making the predicted 20-30 miles a day marching, the roads were clogged and the German army struggled to make 5 miles a day. Time enough for the French, Belgians and British to move troops into their path to block them and it moved into trench warefare.as winter set in b

goodnite, you know what? I really don't care enough to be bothered by it. Why does it bother you so much? Don't bother to reply, I won't be here to read it

I have to go to bed now as I have to be off to Wales at 6.30 in the morning but I have enjoyed the debate. Hope we have not ruffled too many feathers. At the end of the day, it was only a cake...………….

Why do I need evidence? I prefaced my statement by saying in my opinion. I have no knowledge of the statements you make . I certainly don't know that they served him in the future, where did that come from? Is it really that likely if he was sueing them that he would go in there or that they would be happy to take his custom? sounds more than a bit far fetched to me Yep! I believe, end of That's still illegal, there was no "head office", its a small family bakers, you really have to check the facts, not make things up. And while we are at it, can we have your sources for the quote from one of the shop staff? Head Office? please explain ?

I think the key piece of information which may have influenced opinions was the allegation that the complainant was (allegedly) told to leave the shop and never return. I believe this statement was subsequently denied so who really knows? This whole issue is never going to be resolved. As can be seen by views expressed on here views are polarised. If a baker in London had done this they would be a charity shop by now. I'm not gay but here in London gay people are everywhere, openly, nobody cares, nobody thinks anything of it. Why should they? What people want to do is their business. Only in Northern Ireland could this story have legs. it was homophobic, there can be no real doubt (can there be? really?), despite the BS protestations about religious freedom. I still think its amazing all this could kick off over a stupid cake, in this day and age?, and I do, totally, believe the complainant was told to leave the shop and don't come back we don't want your sort in here. straightforward gobbing off by the idiot manager, showing off in front of an audience he thought supported his view about gay people.. Words, nothing but words, but how much grief? how easily could it all have been prevented?

When you consider the amount of English language cable channels (including porn) on hotel TVs in Germany and Holland I don't think anybody is going to be that bothered

We should all be grateful we live in the time that we do and in the country that we do.

I'm sure its coming, just like winter follows summer the markets stretch then overstretch, doubt creeps in and they contract. There is a degree of inevetablity in the whole process. I've got a meeting with my broker next week. I'm sure it will be hunker down and sit it out, -again. Hedging, as an amateur, is beyond risky. We lack the huge information gathering capabilities of the hedge funds. By the time the information filters down to us plebs its too late to act on. Better a fortress mentality and wait

I believe there was but does it really matter? the whole thing is just so pathetic, its really not worth the effort, I have to be up in the morning early so I'm off to bed. Its good to chat, even if we will never agree, and I suspect we won't.,

That's the Northern Ireland mindset in you coming out, why would anyone want to refuse a perfectly legal request for a harmless slogan on a cake? and why would they want to spend upwards of £300,000 defending that refusal? If you can't see the pointlessness of their position I'm not going to argue it with you. I'm not going to change your view and you are not going to change mine.

You are as entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine. If you believed the earth was flat, I may think you are a bit crazy, but I would respect your right to hold that view not abuse you, or throw insults at you . I live in London, surrounded by people that believe all manner of things that I passionately don't.

Its my view, i'm entitled to it. I don't accept Ashers have a right to behave any differently to anybody else. Are you somehow suggesting that because they 'strong views' that moves the goalposts?

I don't, I don't actually believe it was ever about their beliefs, I personally and sincerely believe that the manager gobbed off, playing the big man in front of an audience and then refused to back down. But that's only my belief, I respect your view and your right to hold it.

The lawyers came out of it very nicely in credit thank you!, Hundreds of thousands of ££££££ in the bank for them, all that money for what? a principle, if you think it was a principal. I think it was just a cake . Just crazy

Only on a technicality, the devil is always in the detail. But my point has always been how stupid, and unnecessary, that it got that that far. The only winners were the Lawyers and they couldn't care less about the cake...……………....

The thing is Gordon, the bakery did accept the order and they accepted payment , there was no doubt that a verbal contract was made. Allegedly the cake was made (a picture of it exists) and it was only when the purchaser went in to collect it the manager (aka owners son I believe) refused to let him take it away, and (allegedly) things were said to the customer at that time which were taken as homophobic. Now my view is, at that stage, the bakery dug their heels in and wouldn't ever back down when faced with officialdom, possibly because they thought they were in the right. Who knows? So they went to court and lost, so they appealed and lost so they took it to the high court in London and lucky for them they won. Only then on a techicality It was reported in the Evening Standard (?) that their legal bill has been north of £300,000 but that would have only been the part of it. All the hours spent in meetings with solicitors, meetings with barristers, hotel bills, flights, taxis etc for what? The slogan wasn't really offensive to anyone, it just said "support Gay Marriage", not earth shattering. Would a Man Utd fan refuse an order bake a cake for a Man City fan if it said Support Man City? This whole case to me is about pig headed stubbornness, like neighbours who run up huge legal bills squabbling over a hedge. I don't believe for one minute they were deliberately targeted, if they were it would have been done in a more specific and pointed way and possibly filmed covertly. The message on the cake would have been a lot stronger for sure. I believe this was a case of the shop owner's son (?) shooting his mouth off, simple as that.

You are absolutely right I don't care, it was only a cake with two sesame street characters on it. Lifes too short to worry about a cake.

Good luck and best wishes, its a scary thing but they can do so much these days

The British Library will have copies, they keep copies of everything, but you will have to be more specific. I can help you if you want

Yes if the alternative would have ended up costing me over £300,000 in legal bills to prove a point nobody cares about, I can honestly say I would have printed their t shirts, But lets just put this whole thing into context, it was two Sesame street characters, not some heavy politically loaded message

I really could not care less, it would have saved everybody a lot of trouble if they had just baked the flippin' cake when they were asked to and not be so judgemental about other people's lives.

I'm sure we have an acquisitive ghost in this house

His driver was told to leave by one of the armed response officers at the scene and at that moment the AR officer, irrespective of his rank, was in charge. Had he stayed he would have just been in the way. I don't see what the fuss is all about. The PC was already down when he and two civilians came out of the door.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...…………..

Key safes are dangerously fragile, unless you are going to put them somewhere already well hidden. One of our elderly neighbours was broken into by people forcing open the keysafe used by her carers. My spare keys are buried a foot down in a relative's garden several miles away. I know where they are if I need to get them.