Yoe were warned

[Graham M]

Some tome ago I warned people on this site that if the DSC courses weren’t challenged by BASC that we would soon see them being introduced as a mandatory requirement. I also argued that BASC was spending too much time running courses and not fighting the ubiquitous introduction of them.

I was at the time furious that people were too ready to take these courses and were scathing about anyone who didn’t seem to want to see their introduction. I was angry because they were being slowly and inexorably made a mandatory requirement by many police forces who saw this as a way to stop shooters getting large calibre rifles, and was also poo-poo’d by BASC for spreading alarm when I forecast the introduction of fox shooting tests……….

 

 

Welcome to the future gentlemen…….

 

http://www.lantra-awards.co.uk/catalogue/f...efirerifle.aspx

 

Get yer wallets out………. and bend over.

G.M.

[Spaniel]

I guess there are two sides to this....

From a novice point, ok not the best wording but you should all know what i mean.....take myself, im trying to get some land to get permission to apply for my FAC.

I have experiance with shotguns and air riffles but i have only had a few shots with a riffle, and that is out with a FAC holder.

 

So I get the land, I get the permission and then I apply for my FAC.

NOt sure if there would be any restrictions on useage etc but if granted, where would i go from here.

My obvious idea would be to have a FAC holder accompany me, to show me the ropes etc or my other option would to go on a training course..

 

But training must provide good value for money not just a instandt money making idea from a company

[Browning]

You were absolutely right GM, and I still agree entirely with you.

 

However......having read some of the posts on PW lately, I am beginning to wonder if this would be such a bad thing.......

[SSS]

You were absolutely right GM, and I still agree entirely with you.

 

However......having read some of the posts on PW lately, I am beginning to wonder if this would be such a bad thing.......

I couldn't agree more!

[Ozzy Fudd]

theres alot of useful stuff on that course for someone inexperienced - on top of that i can think of one or two people i know personally who are supposedly experienced who would benefit alot from it :blink:

[Breastman]

Lets get it straight though, it is the laziness and the we-do-what-we-want attitude of FLD's that is the problem here, not the shooters, the courses or BASC etc etc.

 

These sorts of courses, imo, are a good idea. For beginners. If for whatever reason someone can't or won't put in the range time to at least become proficient with a full-bore rifle then DSC is the only answer i can see for someone who doesn't have a friend/family member to show them the ropes.

 

What i agree with the OP on is when FLD's slap the requirement on experienced shooters for no apparent reason other than they can. And it should be these cases where BASC or whatever organisation the person belongs to stands up and fights against the course. :blink:

 

If someone just wants to be able to get a half-mile+ capable rifle for pest control who doesn't know what they're doing, has no shooting experience or anyone to teach them, then they should have to AT LEAST pass DSC1, again, imo.

 

Mark

[JackReady]

If someone just wants to be able to get a half-mile+ capable rifle for pest control who doesn't know what they're doing, has no shooting experience or anyone to teach them, then they should have to AT LEAST pass DSC1, again, imo

 

Hmmmm....

 

A 1/2 mile capable rifle for pest control ......?? Really..! That's 880yds! How precisely would passing the DSC1 assist with that particular phenomena? Its only a basic 100m shooting test where you've got to put your shots into 4", too achieve a pass mark.

 

Whilst I agree whole heartedly with GM's consternation at BASC's eagerness to climb on board the gravy train of providing courses for even the most rudimentary of shooting sports knowledge. As well as their almost conjoined twin like relationship with DMQ.

 

Remember the fiasco that developed regarding the game meat handling qualifications. NGO course and certificate £30, BASC wanted £120 and tried to claim theirs was the only one that met the FSA criteria. We all went off and did the NGO courses.

 

But having read a few of the posts on PW and else where, the at times incredible lack of even basic knowledge of the subject matter that is so often displayed by posters gives me not only major cause for concern but has started to make me think that perhaps such basic and fundamental courses might just be a good thing. If only in that they keep the idiots and gun-ho types off the land with a firearm. You never know when one of the boneheads might turn up on ground near you with a 1/2 mile capable rifle looking to do some pest control.

Edited April 14, 2010 by JackReady

[Ozzy Fudd]

Hmmmm....

 

A 1/2 mile capable rifle for pest control ......?? Really..! That's 880yds! How precisely would passing the DSC1 assist with that particular phenomena? Its only a basic 100m shooting test where you've got to put your shots into 4", too achieve a pass mark.

 

i dont think breastman meant they would be teaching long range shooting, i think what he meant is that some people can get a centrefire rifle with very little experience, so in his opinion they should have to do a course like this if they cant get mentored

 

i do agree to a certain extent, i know one person who has a centrefire, the only experience he had of rifles was of a .22lr. when he applied for the centrefire i had to explain about twist rates, bipods, holdover, range estimation, even breathing techniques for accurate shooting. sometimes i shudder at some of the things he does, but he's one of these people who knows best and doesnt listen to anyone else

[CZ550Kevlar]

I`m all for fox shooting courses however how do you seperate the existing shooters that should go on the course and the existing shooters that don`t need to? grandfather rights are fine for a competent person but how do you tell? If your going to bring it in then it should be imposed onto people running around the countryside with shotguns too not knowing what they are doing. As for new FAC holders going i think it could only be a good thing, but is also the thin edge of the wedge.

I also agree judging from especially a recent post on the forum saying he was new to shooting and out for pigeons with someone else i take to be more expoerienced they saw a fox and he shot it twice only for the fox to limp off and lay in great pain until they could find it and dispatch it, if a course stops this kind of thing then i think great.

[Frenchieboy]

I thiunk that CZ550Kevlar has a very good and relevant point here. How do you distinguish between those that have ample experience and knowledge in Fox Shooting and Fox Control and those that knew their "Mentor" well enough to have got their letter saying that they were "competent" without their mentor even seeing them shoot a rifle or dispatching a fox, something that I am certain does happen in a few very occasional cases. I surpose the long and the short of it is how do you prove what experience you do have?

I will finish by saying that I thing a test of some sort to show that you have a reasonable degree of knowledge of firearms and gun safety could be a good thing for first time applications for a Centre Fire Rifle, if one could be practacally imposed!

[Breastman]

i dont think breastman meant they would be teaching long range shooting, i think what he meant is that some people can get a centrefire rifle with very little experience, so in his opinion they should have to do a course like this if they cant get mentored

 

i do agree to a certain extent, i know one person who has a centrefire, the only experience he had of rifles was of a .22lr. when he applied for the centrefire i had to explain about twist rates, bipods, holdover, range estimation, even breathing techniques for accurate shooting. sometimes i shudder at some of the things he does, but he's one of these people who knows best and doesnt listen to anyone else

 

I'm glad SOMEONE understands me . . . . .

 

Has anyone b******* about DSC actually done the course? If you have no experience of deer stalking and noone to show you its a great introduction, i did it off my own bat, i already had a .308 on an open ticket but thought it was a good idea to get to know the basics. It isn't ONLY an accuracy test with the rifle, you're also assessed on how you handle the rifle; loading, unloading, safe carrying, changing shooting positions, carrying over obstacles etc. A person who has no experience or is just bad at it will be identifed and failed.

 

As people seem so dead against the DSC courses, and not the FLD's indiscriminate use of them, what is their proposal for people who decide they want to get into pest control (police definition), who can't/won't get to a range to get the practice in and who don't have anyone to show them the ropes? Just give them a full-bore rifle because they have some land they can shoot on and let them do it by trial and error??

 

As others have said, the difficulty comes from identifying the people who should do some kind of formal training who are already shooting

Edited April 14, 2010 by Breastman

[AndyCM]

I've done the Lantra fox & DSC 1 entirely off my own back, as I already had centrefire for deer & fox + open, but what the heck it's my sport and I'm going to learn all I can about it....and stay up to date.

The lantra course (with Chichester college) was really good. I'd recommend it, even to experts.

Cheers

AndyCM

[Bombadil]

Why should people who have been shooting a while be exempt? Couldn't it be that they have just been shooting poorly for a while? I bet the same people who are asking for this to be introduced along with air-rifle licenses etc etc will soon be moaning about the levels of beurocracy and how 'it's just common sense'. Obviously we all want quarry to be killed humainley, but a license for everything? This is just rediculous - a lot of it is common sense, and people do seek advice or are taught how to shoot before they do it. Very few people just happen to start shooting foxes with no advice without reading any books or just at least discussing it with an FLO. If they did they wouldn't even know the correct caliber to use. But fine let's all show how responsible we are by helping restrictions get passed. Then eventually if you want to control vermin with an air rifle you will have 3 licenses and a mentor.

[Dunkield]

I have always agreed that courses are no bad thing for people wishing to learn, not everyone has a friend who shoots or comes from a shooting family.

The issue is and always will be that the course get used by FEO's as a mandatory requirement to obtain a rifle of a certain calibre or capability.

Used properly there is not problem with them, it is the FEO's who misuse them it is nothing to do with BASC.

[harv]

i love the search engine for courses near to you with every county in britain bringing up the same results one in staffordshire and one in pembroke, somebodys got their heads together

[Breastman]

Those two maybe the only ones in the country at the moment! There were filthy Londoners and someone from Edinburgh on the same course as me. And i thought i was being put out having to travel from Durham to Northumberland!

 

Mark

[Harnser]

Here we go . Soon these courses will be forced on to us by the local constabulary and I might add contrary to any law reguarding the application of a firearms certificate . We are our own worse enemys . In deed the wedge is being driven in . Any how ,who mentors the mentors . Perhaps another course how to mentor a novice shooter . Or how to mentor a novice mentor . What so called qualifications are mentors supposed to have ?. I could go on .

 

Harnser .

[DaveK]

I'm waiting to go on the course someone invents to decide which course I need to go on.

 

I've never heard so much piffle in my life (apart from politics of course). Yet another money making scheme that's going to stick another nail in our coffin.

Edited April 14, 2010 by DaveK

[Dunkield]

I think.... when replying to this post you should state your age - now that would make interesting reading

[pavman]

Some tome ago I warned people on this site that if the DSC courses weren’t challenged by BASC that we would soon see them being introduced as a mandatory requirement. I also argued that BASC was spending too much time running courses and not fighting the ubiquitous introduction of them.

I was at the time furious that people were too ready to take these courses and were scathing about anyone who didn’t seem to want to see their introduction. I was angry because they were being slowly and inexorably made a mandatory requirement by many police forces who saw this as a way to stop shooters getting large calibre rifles, and was also poo-poo’d by BASC for spreading alarm when I forecast the introduction of fox shooting tests……….

 

 

Welcome to the future gentlemen…….

 

http://www.lantra-awards.co.uk/catalogue/f...efirerifle.aspx

 

Get yer wallets out………. and bend over.

G.M.

 

 

Sorry i must have missed you first post on the subject....

 

Maybe I am being a bit slow but who said its mandatory?

 

There are many training courses, I have a Rifle Craft Police approaved cert which I took up myself not because anyone told me I must. I took it after I had my FAC despite having friends with more experiance.

 

If a gas fitter calls to service the boiler he has a cert of competence to prove he has the skills to do the job right, yet just about anyone can apply and many seem to obtain a FAC with little or no experiance and looking at some of the posts we get little or no common sense. With that in mind would it be such a bad thing to have some basic training prior to being granted a FAC

[Cosd]

I've been driving my dads tractor since I was this high, why do I need a Driving Licence........

 

So people with experience get upset that they might have to take a course, are you not more worried that currently anyone can get a licence and a gun with no experience and be shooting a couple of fields away from you?

[al4x]

actually you don't need a driving license off road

 

I think some of the controversy is down to the people who like to advise FEO's being closely linked to those running the training courses. What doesn't make sense and is what gets my goat is the way they like to impose DSC or a mentor on you for shooting deer when you can shoot foxes with the same gun. The police are licensing the firearm and really that is where it should stop as frankly we carry the can at the trigger end anyway. Shoot the wrong quarry or leave wounded quarry about and we're all open to prosecution whatever is on our tickets.

 

Should someone with no firearms experience be ably to get a license and go out with a centrefire on their own and my answer is probably no, doesn't matter what you are after should still require some form of training / mentoring

[Harnser]

If any body who wants to gain experiance before shooting deer or foxes ,in my opinion should approach an experianced shooter and ask them to show them the ropes . I have done this in the past and would still go out with a novice if they required it . All this malarky about compulsory mentoring is nonsence and may I again say not necessary in law to apply for a ticket . And for the record I am 66 years old with over 50 years of experiance shooting just about everything and have not seen a single rambler or farm animal killed accidently . Some statistics reff. fatal accidental killings of ramblers and livestock would be interesting . It would proberbly put compulsory testing in the right context . I bet that there are more deaths and serious injuries each year from people putting their trousers on than have ever been shot accidently by a sporting rifle .

 

Harnser .

[David BASC]

I was going to say that what I am about to post is from me, David Ilsley, shooter, father, karate man, fisher man, and grumpy old man at the age of 46, rather than David BASC.

 

However, I have been reliably informed that to do so would be naive as no one will believe me, and all of you will automatically decide that what I am going to say is BASC policy not my personal view so here is my post take it any way you like

 

I have been on shooting courses and I have been mentored for shooting and other things.

 

The course I went on (DSC1) certainly increased my knowledge of deer, deer biology, habitat, identification etc..but did not make me a better shot or a better hunter..but was / is it supposed to?

 

I have been mentored for 22 target shooting – never been on a classroom course at all, and have again learn a lot, BUT this has made me a better shot most certainly.

 

OK I am not comparing apples with apples I know, but here is another one… when I was about 16 I went on a driving course, mainly classroom based, but we did have access to simulators, we learned all about the highway code, the principles of driving and mechanics and so on and of course has plenty of plays in the simulator. The first time I got in a real car and pulled away…I stalled. First time I did a hill start…I stalled, first three point t turn… clouted the kerb. But 5 driving lessons later I passed my test first time, where most of my mates were taking 10-12 or more lessons before taking their test. Was this down to the course? Who knows

 

Turning to karate, you can learn lots from books & DVD’s even the web but you cannot practice karate without mentoring, you cannot perfect kata without mentoring, you certainly cant pass a grading without mentoring, and I dread to htink what owuld happen to somone who had 'done a course' and then went up agiainst somone in kumite (fighting / sparing).

 

Now slightly back on track. at my first term at university, we all had to do a foundation course in Chemistry, it was just about year 1 A level standard. Now to me who already had an A level in Chem, it was a boring waste of my (drinking) time, but to others who had only an O level or no chemistry at all it was very useful, but it meant that in the next term when we progressed to higher things, everyone was starting form at least the same level

 

Courses certainly help build knowledge, or take people to a common level of knowledge, but practice under guidance, is in my view likely to make the person a better practitioner

 

I am never convinced by the ‘I ve been doing it for years so non one can teach me anything’ attitude personally, but maybe that’s just because I am willing to accept that maybe, just maybe, I don’t know everything, and maybe, just maybe, there is someone out there who has more knowledge than me

 

The course by Lantra looks great for someone new to shooting for sure, or new to that type of shooting to build up their knowledge.

 

It would be interesting if they put the assessment ‘on line’ so all of us could take it (without taking the course) to see what score we got!

 

 

David

[mikee]

Hmmmm....

 

A 1/2 mile capable rifle for pest control ......?? Really..! That's 880yds! How precisely would passing the DSC1 assist with that particular phenomena? Its only a basic 100m shooting test where you've got to put your shots into 4", too achieve a pass mark.

 

Whilst I agree whole heartedly with GM's consternation at BASC's eagerness to climb on board the gravy train of providing courses for even the most rudimentary of shooting sports knowledge. As well as their almost conjoined twin like relationship with DMQ.

 

Remember the fiasco that developed regarding the game meat handling qualifications. NGO course and certificate £30, BASC wanted £120 and tried to claim theirs was the only one that met the FSA criteria. We all went off and did the NGO courses.

 

But having read a few of the posts on PW and else where, the at times incredible lack of even basic knowledge of the subject matter that is so often displayed by posters gives me not only major cause for concern but has started to make me think that perhaps such basic and fundamental courses might just be a good thing. If only in that they keep the idiots and gun-ho types off the land with a firearm. You never know when one of the boneheads might turn up on ground near you with a 1/2 mile capable rifle looking to do some pest control.

 

 

I'm of the same opinion as you guys, there does seem to be a lack of knowledge of fire arms and the like, its not the fault of the posters as every one has to start somewhere but as a member of the public who spends a lot of time outside in the country side at all times of the day and night I would maybe feel safer in the knowledge that the lamps i see flickering round the hedges at night have someone behind them with a little bit of an idea about what theyre doing.

 

Training and educating people for the sake of training and education is a good thing but when used as away to restrict and hold people back in what they want to do or as a money making opportunity for the training body is not, I'm not against mandatory training for center fire rifle use, but the training should be useful and recognized by the authorities and should actually allow the FAC holder greater freedom in choice of calibers permitted once he/she has shown that they can handle and operate CF rifles in the field safely

 

mikee