Criminal Justice Act 1988

[Billy.]

Just to quote the law to start things off here:

 

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]

 

I keep all my pigeon shooting equipment in the back of my car (bar my shotgun, but the shotgun carts live in the car too). It's a great place to leave it all, as it saves one hell of a load of effort to unload it all and drag a mess through the house.

 

My issue is that I also own an assisted opening Kershaw knife (longer than 3 inches) and a 15" machete, which I also keep in the car. The knife sits in the cubby hole next to the steering wheel and the machete stays behind my seat.

 

What gets me is that I don't ever go out thinking. "Ah, I may need a knife/machete today, so I'll put them in the car." so I avoid being without a knife when I need one, by just keeping it in the car... It seems to make sense, however cars are treated as a public place and therefore I can be arrested for having these on me, without having a good reason for doing so. At first I thought it'd be pretty obvious to any policeman that a load of pigeon shooting equipment and a utility version of the Defender 90 might give away that I'm not just some idiot driving around with offensive weapons with an intent to use them. However I have been reading about numerous people getting arrested who use knives for their trade.

 

Please can someone help me on this, as I want to keep a knife (at least) in my car, as they're extremely handy when you need them and a nightmare if you don't have one! (Possibly a lifesaver too!)

 

Do you keep a knife in the car and have you ever been stopped?

[Dekers]

If you have legitimate reason then there is not a problem.

 

Debate ensues when they are within easy reach and you have not been out shooting..in simple terms it is still a grey area!

 

The police will confiscate/charge you, and it will be down to you to show just cause...not that easy very often even if everything is innocent!!

[starlight32]

I was questioned on a routine stop with reference to similar items I had in my vehicle, they were in a tool box in the back of my truck but the tool box was open so the items were plain to see.

 

After a little exchange of reasons, it was left that I had good reason to have them with me although that was entirely open to challenge.

 

Let me tell everyone I really felt it is a case of interpretation by those involved, and I was or was'nt in the wrong. A popular quirk in English laws which in my opinion leaves it open to swing either way to suit the situation and the individuals involved........

 

So like I said, for example- if I was a gardener with an equipped van,full of sharp things like they do, and it happened to be a sunday and I was on the way to church and not work I would techically under the law be in the wrong as I would not have 'good reason' to have those items with me at that particular time.

 

Its all at our peril.

[inthedark]

If you're going to, or coming from shooting you have the requisite excuse.

 

If you get home from shooting then decide to go for a bag of chips, you have a big problem. Its not worth it, just keep your knives with your gun.

[Billy.]

See, that's the issue 'good reason'

 

YES, I can give a good reason if I'm on my way to or from shooting, but what about just keeping a knife in the car in case I need it. I might pop up to the farm and need it, or someone's broken down and needs a sharp knife to fix something... It really annoys me that I'd be legally fine to hold the knife in one circumstance, but not in another.

 

I have always said that we shooters should get conditions added to our SGC/FACs (not automatically, but if requested and deemed by the FEO as a reasonable request) as we are trusted with live firing GUNS but not knives!!

[inthedark]

I dont think the particular piece of legislation was aimed at you (or me/forum members etc), we're just caught in the net and effectively 'taking one for the team'. Greater good and all that.

[Sprinter]

I must admit that a 7" folding saw and several screwdrivers "live" in the back door pocket of my truck and 2nd feb to Mid April a billhook lives in my decoying kit that is a permanent feature in my boot. It does strike me that i would not have good reason for any of these to be in the vehicle during my weeky trip to tescos. I should also point out that mid april to mid august a set of golf clubs replace the decoying kit and i would be reasonably certain that i could do a good deal of damage with those too.

However, considering the Chief Constable thinks i am a responsible enough person to wander about waving a loaded shotgun, i would hope to be able to convince the local bobby that i am not about to go on the rampage attempting to cut up members of the general populus with totally unsuitable implements, i would rather pop home and get the baikal and nip back

[Vince Green]

You are very vunerable because the whole thing rests on the opinion (and the mood) of which ever officer happens to stop you. Personally, I wouldn't risk it. Just having a knife in your car is enough to get you arrested these days, once you get arrested then a process gets started thats hard to stop. You might be able to argue that you use them for shooting when you get to court but do you really want all that stress?

[SXPhil]

They SHOULD NOT be within reach of your driving position!

 

In the boot for your reasons stated should be fine

[Kit Monster]

They SHOULD NOT be within reach of your driving position!

 

In the boot for your reasons stated should be fine

 

 

Although the knife may not be in easy reach of your driving/seating position, this would not negate the possibility of you being arrested. As has been said before, it is down to you to show that you had 'reasonable excuse' to be in possession of it. This may be possible at the roadside but it is also possible that this will be determined in an interview ie after arrest!

 

This really is all about being sensible for all involved.

If you have it in the boot, then should it be found, this will show the officer(s) that you have made steps to secure it away from anyone. Still not a foolproof 'get out of jail' card but if you want to carry one around then its the best possible way but you're still taking your chance.

As for the machete...I would strongly suggest that this ONLY gets taken out when you have a reason ie shooting. Finding that, might make the officer(s) think twice about giving roadside advice especially if its in the main compartment of the car.

If they see that, you might just get 'restrained' without any further conversation!

 

Another thing to remember...if you've got all your shooting gear in the car, the police might want to check the shotgun(s) legitimacy etc but they're not really going to be worried about the knives in that case. If you haven't got your gear and the knife isn't in plain sight, then they would have to have a reason to search the car in order to find the knife!

 

harfordwmj - you stated "possibly a lifesaver too". Hopefully you mean to cut seatbelts and not to 'defend' yourself. If it's the latter and you do ever get stopped and questioned, NEVER say anything along those lines. It will end badly!

 

I carry a knife in the boot of my car and behind the backseat of my truck.

 

Be sensible, be safe but be prepared to fall foul of the law if not.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[Ozzy Fudd]

keep it out of view, but dont leave it in door pockets - one of my friends was stopped for speeding, he had a knife in the passenger door pocket of the car. the policeman got smart with him for speeding, he got smart back, then the cop noticed the knife...

 

as for machetes, etc, again leave them in the boot/back of the landrover, out of sight, and preferably in a bag with a camo net or few decoys. itll make it easier to argue your case if its found by saying it was there for building a hide (and that your possibly on the way to build one now to have it ready for the next days shooting...) than simply just forgetting to take it out/i always keep it there

[Billy.]

harfordwmj - you stated "possibly a lifesaver too". Hopefully you mean to cut seatbelts and not to 'defend' yourself. If it's the latter and you do ever get stopped and questioned, NEVER say anything along those lines. It will end badly!

 

The thing is, I wrote that meaning to cut seatbelts and it never crossed my mind that it would be used in a fight as a 'lifesaver'

 

feeling slightly embarrassed that I didn't spot that glaring mistake and how it could be misunderstood!

 

--

 

Thanks all. I will keep the knives in my decoying bag, as I think that any police officer with a tiny bit of common sense, will see the pigeon shooting gear and the knives together and see that they are for a related purpose. I'm willing to take that risk, even if it was taken to court, as it'd be clear that a knife would be needed for such activity.

[Gully]

You're still allowed to carry a non-locking foldable knife with a blade under 3" with no reason. I have a mini swiss army knife on every key ring and a 3" folder inside the armrest of my car, all legal. I read somewhere about a guygetting (and accepting, dur!) a caution for having a knife in his car on the way to a stalking trip. The rifle was fine, the knife illegal.

[Billy.]

You're still allowed to carry a non-locking foldable knife with a blade under 3" with no reason. I have a mini swiss army knife on every key ring and a 3" folder inside the armrest of my car, all legal. I read somewhere about a guygetting (and accepting, dur!) a caution for having a knife in his car on the way to a stalking trip. The rifle was fine, the knife illegal.

 

That's all good, but there's a clear benefit to a lock knife, over a non-locking folding knife.... I quite like my fingers and I wouldn't be keen on losing them from using a Swiss army knife

[Gully]

That's all good, but there's a clear benefit to a lock knife, over a non-locking folding knife.... I quite like my fingers and I wouldn't be keen on losing them from using a Swiss army knife

 

Yep, I agree totally. The problem with this law is that you're guilty until proven innocent. I guess you have to put it into perspective, I've been driving for 23 years and never been stopped by the police, let alone searched. I've never been stopped and searched in the street either. I often need some tools for my job, so I have a leatherman, a loupe and a vernier guage in my car all the time. I think I have good reason to carry them, but they're in a case in the boot.

 

I was listening to a guy on the radio on Friday I think talking about this. He was stopped at St Pancras for trying to carry a knife onto the Eurostar. He argued that he needed it as he was taking a number of elderly people to meet with a coach in France and would need it to cut seatblets in the event of a crash. The police were called and had no problem with the knife, accepted his reasons for carrying it. However Eurostar wouldn't let him take it on the train, so the policeman took it and kept it at the station until the man returned.

[Cranfield]

I use commonsense in these circumstances.

Being a shooter and a fisherman I nearly always have "blades" in my vehicle, either filleting knives, bush knives, pocket type knives, etc.

They are never in my pocket, or available to me while I am in the truck.

I keep them in the cargo area and always in a bag away from clear view.

[Gobfish]

I've stopped carrying the Puma lock knife thats been in my pocket for the last 25 years, it now lives in my shooting trouser pocket, instead I have a folding pocket knife with a blade of less than 3". (still have all my fingers) The machette and ferreting spike and 4 foot bladed bramble slasher that used to live in the back of my 4WD, all now get lugged in and out of the garage every time I use them. When my car was broken into and all the contents stolen all the police were interested in was the small locking penknife that I foolishly included on the list of stolen items, they grilled me on every aspect of it and showed no interest in anything else.... you see I made the mistake of thinking they were there to help identify the stolen items with a view to catching the criminals, it seemed however that I was an easier tsrget for their arrest quota

[MC]

I completely agree with Cranfield on this, there is probably 3 or 4 knives in my car at any one time but always in a tool box and shooting bag etc. You can discuss the issues if you are ever stopped but having a machete behind your seat and to be perfectly blunt about it there is only one reason that would be there. And that ain't legal.

 

If it is in your kit bag with all your other shooting equipment then fine, there is not an issue.

[Vipa]

I used to carry a leatherman in the back of my truck because, a bit like my winch that rarely gets used, i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it! I now only put a knife in the car if I am going shooting or if I am going somewhere that I can prove, 'beyond reasonable doubt' that I have good reason to have it with me.

 

The law, whilst needed with the growing incidence of knife crime, has once again taken a blinkered view and all of us sensible, law adbiding people are being viewed with the same suspicion as the idiots who carry them looking for a fight. To my mind, the way things are in this country and with the law...... unless you are ACTUALLY on your way shooting or to another legitimate place where you will need the knife AND CAN PROVE IT.... leave it at home!

 

I thought assisted opening knives were prohibited in the UK?

Edited April 19, 2010 by Vipa

[Billy.]

I thought assisted opening knives were prohibited in the UK?

 

Nope The knife doesn't have a button to open it, which is illegal. It requires pressure from the thumb on the blade notch to open it. I did check it was legal before buying it

[Vipa]

Nope The knife doesn't have a button to open it, which is illegal. It requires pressure from the thumb on the blade notch to open it. I did check it was legal before buying it

 

Ahhh I see what you mean, no spring or anything, just a way of opening it one handed?

[Billy.]

Ahhh I see what you mean, no spring or anything, just a way of opening it one handed?

 

No, there is a spring. But the law says that for it to be deemed a flick knife, it must have a button or lever on the handle of the knife. Mine doesn't have that.

 

Video of what mine does.

 

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>">

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="480" height="385">

 

Blink and you'll miss it

[gixer1]

I always have at least 2 knives in my car in the centre cosole, a Buck knife and a divers type knife fro grollaching, at the end the day I go on the common sense approach, if i am ever stopped and it goes to court I don't have any previous convictions and I have a definite need for them.

 

The constant need would be a high lift jack in the boot of the car which is held in with big tie-wraps so i need a way of cutting them, and the other is if shooting/stalking....

 

I think it is a miniscule number who would be silly enough to produce a knife in the event of an argument with another road user....unless in the most extreme of circumstance (such as a hijacking etc)....

 

Most police officers would use common sense although i'm sure there are some who would pull people up on the "jobsworth" type of thing...

[Vipa]

No, there is a spring. But the law says that for it to be deemed a flick knife, it must have a button or lever on the handle of the knife. Mine doesn't have that.

 

Video of what mine does.

 

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>">

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="480" height="385">

 

Blink and you'll miss it

 

Nice Knife!

 

I have a small collection

 

Microtech Curahee (designed for Navy Seals but makes a fantasic bushcraft/hunting knife)

Bob Dozier K-19 Professional Skinner

Bob Dozier KS-3 Professional Guides Knife

Spyderco 74G Ocelot Pawprint Lock

 

Sadly they all spend 99.9% of their lives locked away in my gun cabinet!

Edited April 19, 2010 by Vipa

[Vipa]

I always have at least 2 knives in my car in the centre cosole, a Buck knife and a divers type knife fro grollaching, at the end the day I go on the common sense approach, if i am ever stopped and it goes to court I don't have any previous convictions and I have a definite need for them.

 

The constant need would be a high lift jack in the boot of the car which is held in with big tie-wraps so i need a way of cutting them, and the other is if shooting/stalking....

 

I think it is a miniscule number who would be silly enough to produce a knife in the event of an argument with another road user....unless in the most extreme of circumstance (such as a hijacking etc)....

 

Most police officers would use common sense although i'm sure there are some who would pull people up on the "jobsworth" type of thing...

 

Be very careful Gixer, a pair of snips or scisors would do for the ties and unless you are on your way to or from a stalk, you could end up in serious trouble. I think in reality it would be unlikely you would get stopped and searched in the first place but shooters (as has been seen by a few on here) are targets by plod and can be singled out for special attention!

 

Also, you say you would rely on your good character and clean record as a defence in court..... won't work, knife offences, just as gun offences, carry MANDATORY punishments!

 

My advice is to treat a knife like a gun. You wouldn't dream of leaving your gun or rifle in the car just in case you might need it and so, look at a knife in the same way, put it in your car with the gun when you go shooting and take it out with the gun when you get back. My knives are kept locked away with my guns and are treated in pretty much the same way as them.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Vipa