17 HMR for fox

[gaz-loc]

this seems to bring up quite alot of arguments..and i just don't get why..iv spoken to numerous people who have laughed at me when i question the little 17s' capabilities of bringing down a fox, when i ask "you shoot foxes with a 17HMR!!? that has enough power behind it??" they say " god yes, shoot it in the head or neck and its dowwwwn!!"

 

your thoughts?

[Mr_Logic]

i'm bored with this now, that's my thought.

 

Fact - HMR will kill a fox with good bullet placement (head) and limited range (<125 yards)

 

Fact - HMR is too piddly to expand its bullet when impacts occur much beyond that 125-ish yard range.

 

Fact - HMR has little energy and is not particularly hefty at any range.

 

Fact - It was conceived as a rabbit/prairie dog calibre

 

Therefore

 

Opinion - it is a piddly little rabbit round which should be left to the rabbits, unless Charlie is good and close and that's all you have with you. If you want a mainstream fox rifle (i.e. a rifle where you say "I am out foxing, so I am taking X") then you start with 22 Hornet and work your way up. The centrefires are brilliant at fox control, despite what people say about which is best, they all kill Charlie quite happily.

[Dekers]

I rather think this has been covered in many threads.

 

The HMR is NOT a Fox round, it is certainly capable and as with all my rimfires and certrefires it is conditioned for fox, and I did a job just a couple of days back where the fox had been baited to the point of 21.00 arrival daily, he had the last supper down to a 17g HMR between the eyes at 50 yards.

 

The HMR has its uses on fox, as does the .22lr etc etc etc etc, but it is situations and circumstances, I make a living out of Game and Vermin control so I need versatility....I struggle to see how anyone can look at the HMR as their first choice, one and only fox tool, but yes, it has its moments!!

[Billy.]

this seems to bring up quite alot of arguments..and i just don't get why..iv spoken to numerous people who have laughed at me when i question the little 17s' capabilities of bringing down a fox, when i ask "you shoot foxes with a 17HMR!!? that has enough power behind it??" they say " god yes, shoot it in the head or neck and its dowwwwn!!"

 

your thoughts?

 

It's almost that you want an argument to kick off, seeing as you've said there's a lot of heated discussions on the matter.

 

I personally don't think it's a suitable fox round. Yes, it will kill, but it doesn't pack the punch that a centrefire does.

[Admiral Von Tirpitz]

Would have to disagree here, I use a 17HMR with federal tips, the ballistic ones, anything small like rabbits, it renders then useless for food consumption, at ranges over a 100 yards it blows them open on exit, under that range, it does very serious damage. I have shot a fox and again damage is heavy on exit, you would have to be a poor shot to not inflict serious damage to a fox torso or head up to 150 yards, so much so that death would be instant.

 

What results have others had on foxes or rabbits which doubts the guns ability??

[the running man]

I am also bored with this old argument,many forces are now banning .17 for fox,I don't blame them,.17 just aint got the kinetic energy transfer needed to be really sure of a clean kill. On a personal experience note I shot a fox at about 70 meters and it were riveing round in pain so had to put another 2 into it,the shot was where I wanted it but no outright kill,so I now use a .223. I don't know about anyone else but I feel quite bad if I've not killed the quarry cleanly with the 1st shot.

[the running man]

Also on rabbits I go for head shots if it looks nice enogh for consumption,but if I'm just on a cull or if its a bit out of range ile go for the center and chuck them in the piggerys incinerator....a mans got to know his limitations!

[njc110381]

Almost any gun can kill a Fox if you're close enough. I shot a few with my HMR when I had it and the first time it did the job fine. 80 odd yards in the boiler room and it went straight down. That got me thinking it was ok. Then I got out and had a couple of runners. The first I thought was just bad luck and I shot him again so he went down. Then I took another few which died and then another runner which I never found because it didn't offer a safe follow up shot. I never shot Fox with my HMR again and it went not long after.

 

For people who don't have a bigger option I feel it's ok inside 75 yards if your shot placement is perfect. There's a lot of chance if you pull it a bit they will get away and to me that's not good enough. If you have a lot of Foxes I always say swap the HMR for a .22 Hornet. It shoots like a HMR but with a bit more knock down and no firearms depatment I know of would turn it down if you told them you had Foxes to shoot. Rimfires will do the job but not very well.

[al4x]

Its fine and if you compare it to deer running with a centrefire then it is no different. Boiler room shots generally for me and yes they can run but it won't be far, I use it as an opportunist round or where safety dictates it. Yes a centrefire will do the job with more margin for error but everyone knows you will still get the odd runner no matter what you use. What I will say is a boiler room shot fox will die pretty quickly so it depends how good you are at following up when you get a runner. I found I got them more with the 20g than the 17's and actually the distance issue I was talking to someone the other day who has clocked up a lot of foxes with his and actually we were thinking it actually seems to work better at 100 yards because with the round slowing down more it doesn't tend to exit and does a lot of damage. Anyone who thinks it doesn't expand properly after that point wants to get out with one more. I've clocked more with mine this year than my .223 so far and have no hesitation on reasonably close ones and actually have put the .223 down on occasions if a shot wasn't safe with it and used the HMR.

[hyflier]

I've shot two now with my 17 hmr, both head shots, both at around 75 yards......... no surprises at the result

[Colster]

Its fine and if you compare it to deer running with a centrefire then it is no different. Boiler room shots generally for me and yes they can run but it won't be far, I use it as an opportunist round or where safety dictates it. Yes a centrefire will do the job with more margin for error but everyone knows you will still get the odd runner no matter what you use. What I will say is a boiler room shot fox will die pretty quickly so it depends how good you are at following up when you get a runner. I found I got them more with the 20g than the 17's and actually the distance issue I was talking to someone the other day who has clocked up a lot of foxes with his and actually we were thinking it actually seems to work better at 100 yards because with the round slowing down more it doesn't tend to exit and does a lot of damage. Anyone who thinks it doesn't expand properly after that point wants to get out with one more. I've clocked more with mine this year than my .223 so far and have no hesitation on reasonably close ones and actually have put the .223 down on occasions if a shot wasn't safe with it and used the HMR.

 

 

I think you're right on this, my shooting buddy hit a muntjac with his .243 at about 20yards and it ran for about 30yards before dropping stone dead. His theory was that the bullet was going too fast to expand properly, this was confirmed to some extent by two identical clean holes on either side of the deer.

[Mr_Logic]

If you don't get good expansion and catastrophic damage, there's usually enough in the tank for an animal to scamper on.

 

HMR will kill a fox, and as said it has its uses. But as a general-purpose fox round, on non-specific ground, it's not great. Biggest problem further out is the lack of expansion with that little polymer tip - it needs a solid impact to expand reliably, and once you get much over 125 yards it simply does not happen.

 

Admiral Von Thingy, I have seen fox vs HMR @ 150 yards, foxy took 3 good hits to go down. No expansion of the bullet, and a tiny bullet, with little energy. Same shot in closer, around 100 yards, and dead fox - you get expansion. Would I use HMR on a fox that far (150) again? No way. That's why I have Hornet. Much better calibre.

[Salop Matt]

I shoot between 5 and 15 fox a year so cant justifie a centre fire as a dedicated rifle ! So as west-mercia allow it I have HMR for my foxing bits as it also does my bunnys.

 

My shots are never over 60 yards and are only ever head shots and if I cant be sure of good shot placement i move untill i get it or just leave them for the next time when the shot is good. I have never taken a boiler room shot on charles and wouldnt with a HMR ( personal choice).

 

Above the HMR I would like to find out more about the WMR or .22 hypers for more hitting power. But unless I get more permition with more of a fox problem then any rifle I have needs to do bunnys as its 99% of its work and occasional fox !

 

[al4x]

If you don't get good expansion and catastrophic damage, there's usually enough in the tank for an animal to scamper on.

 

HMR will kill a fox, and as said it has its uses. But as a general-purpose fox round, on non-specific ground, it's not great. Biggest problem further out is the lack of expansion with that little polymer tip - it needs a solid impact to expand reliably, and once you get much over 125 yards it simply does not happen.

 

Admiral Von Thingy, I have seen fox vs HMR @ 150 yards, foxy took 3 good hits to go down. No expansion of the bullet, and a tiny bullet, with little energy. Same shot in closer, around 100 yards, and dead fox - you get expansion. Would I use HMR on a fox that far (150) again? No way. That's why I have Hornet. Much better calibre.

 

 

all I'd say to that is you pegged it and it allowed you to get more shots into it so in effect it did the job. Not ideal and I'd agree its not a 150 yard caliber however to say it won't expand properly at that range personally I think is wrong as it is still packing a fair punch certainly enough to cause decent expansion. Just not enough to cause quite the trauma needed for an instant lights out shot.

[Mr_Logic]

Thing is, it's not exactly making a mess of a rabbit that far out either. Hornet on the other hand most certainly does, which is why it's my calibre of choice. Ultimately I haven't tested it on a block of that gel they use, but it does not have my confidence!

[vmax55]

hmr more than capable round for foxes out to 125yds. often taken them out at this range to the head. call them in then take the shot.any shy ******* get the .223

[Dekers]

There will never be an ANSWER on HMR for fox...yes, for sure, the calibre is capable in the right circumstances in the right hands and with the right ammo.

 

Is a 2" group acceptable to you at 125 or 1" or 1/2"...how much experience have you had, do you lamp or use night vision, what sort of quality is your scope, how well do you maintain your rifle, etc, etc, etc....

 

Get the idea???

 

I have a lot of rifles and I try to use the most appropriate in the right circumstances for the right quarry, and sometimes that is a HMR for fox, but many people will only have 1 or 2 rifles and nobody should consider the HMR their first choice overall, all circumstances fox tool, it isn't.

 

ATB!!

[vole]

If the HMR kills them when used within its capabilities then what is the problem ? Why do they insist on the same calibre we use on the Taliban for what is a 20 lb or so animal? Do we not shoot deer then track them to where they fall ?I think there is a case of sentimentalism among those who write the rules here when it comes to foxes.

[Mr_Logic]

It has a large amount to do with respect for our quarry. Deer are somewhat more difficult than foxes. 17HMR has a very limited capability for a clean kill, and that is the point - yes that is enough form time to time, but it is NOT enough for a rifle that is PRIMARILY for killing foxes.

 

Deer are much tougher creatures with thicker bones and stronger hide. Therefore, you need a bullet which expands more slowly to ensure that you penetrate all that bone and hide and put a hole in a vital organ. That means you DON'T want too explosive a bullet to ensure you punch that hole. Different deer are different size, so this applies differently. For example, a 70gr 6mm varmint Nosler will normally punch a hole in a roe deer no problem. Wouldn't use it on a red though. if you use a varmint bullet on a deer, you kill it very quick, and they almost never run. Problem is that a. you likely want to eat the animal and you make a bloody great hole in it (not good) and b. what about the one time that bullet doesn't penetrate?

 

Foxes are lightweight, thin-skinned animals, so within reason you want very rapid expansion, which means massive bullet damage. Great! you're not eating it and penetration not a problem.

 

I don't think it's sentimentalism, just different circumstances.

[Zapp]

this seems to bring up quite alot of arguments..and i just don't get why..iv spoken to numerous people who have laughed at me when i question the little 17s' capabilities of bringing down a fox, when i ask "you shoot foxes with a 17HMR!!? that has enough power behind it??" they say " god yes, shoot it in the head or neck and its dowwwwn!!"

 

your thoughts?

 

So, people have given their thoughts as requested. Are you going to say any more on the matter or were you just trying to start an argument

 

ZB

[ollie]

I have just opened July's Sporting Gun and noticed that George Wallace has done an article on this very topic. Haven't got a chance to read it yet but possible this evening.

[Zapp]

I have just opened July's Sporting Gun

 

Well reminded Ollie, mine is sitting still in its wrapper next to me, after I completely forgot about it.

 

ZB

[Dekers]

Well reminded Ollie, mine is sitting still in its wrapper next to me, after I completely forgot about it.

 

ZB

 

It is, and will remain, a great area of debate, Sporting Shooter has also discussed this recently...and I suspect many others as well!

[gaz-loc]

whats with the emotional inputs talking about creating arguments..there was no intention to create an argument just settle down a bit..crickey..

 

was looking for what the shooting nation thought rather than the voice of just one guy writing an article in a magazine!

 

anyway putting aside the people finger pointing..it seems that the general opinion is that within a sensible range the HMR is quite capable of dispatching a fox in the right hands :unsure:

 

need to find out if my local firearms department allow it anyway!

 

cheers folks

[Evil Elvis]

Fact - HMR is too piddly to expand its bullet when impacts occur much beyond that 125-ish yard range.

 

Im sure this is going to go on and on....but that statement is total bull.....not fact :unsure: