Fisherman Mike Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 "Subscribers" ? thats new one on me. :( I use the term metaphoricaly not literally FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 In all honesty, there are not many members that post on here that regularly shoot big bags (100+ birds).Most consider 30 odd birds to be an exceptional day most of the year and a miracle in the Winter. I think Whitebridges tally of birds is bringing an element of truth to how many are really shot, I don't feel quite so bad after reading through the replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aubs Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hey up, I personnally would not bait a field for shooting pigeon. How many of you would disagree when the seed drill broke and threw seed all over the field. Would you not shoot because it's sort of cheating although not intentional. Also, I am involved with a pheasant/partridge shoot where we introduce birds into a wood / game crop , feed them, then shoot them ,is their a difference. Just a thought Cheers Aubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hey up, I personnally would not bait a field for shooting pigeon. How many of you would disagree when the seed drill broke and threw seed all over the field. Would you not shoot because it's sort of cheating although not intentional. Also, I am involved with a pheasant/partridge shoot where we introduce birds into a wood / game crop , feed them, then shoot them ,is their a difference. Just a thought Cheers Aubs Hey up mate on the pi$$ again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Hey up, I personnally would not bait a field for shooting pigeon. How many of you would disagree when the seed drill broke and threw seed all over the field. Would you not shoot because it's sort of cheating although not intentional. Also, I am involved with a pheasant/partridge shoot where we introduce birds into a wood / game crop , feed them, then shoot them ,is their a difference. Just a thought Cheers Aubs Yes there is a big difference... Pigeons are not a reared commodity they are, we forget, a Wild Bird. Last years extension of the legal control of Pigeon by shooting was granted by Government after much deliberation and lobbying against field sports by the LACS Just the fact that sufficient pressure was put on the general committee to persuade them to fundamentally change the rules on control of Pigeon by shooting is illustrative that we are treading on very thin ice. Yes they are an agricultural pest but originally, and I mean before the advent of OSR, the birds major damage was to seeded fields where much of the seed was poorly drilled and very shallow. These days the birds main predation is OSR as modern Farming methods are much more efficient. We are concerned primarily with the facts and the fact is that attracting a wild bird, pest or not to the gun by using grain or the like is ILLEGAL under the current legislative terms of the general licence...if you shoot a bird under such conditions you are under the strict terms of the Licence committing an offence which could possibly result in prosecution and the revoking or your certificate. Like it or not that is a fact. FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 rob reynolds,your anology of using a baited hook to catch fish is pure ****. next time you go decoying leave your gun at home and see how you get on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted February 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 We are concerned primarily with the facts and the fact is that attracting a wild bird, pest or not to the gun by using grain or the like is ILLEGAL under the current legislative terms of the general licence...if you shoot a bird under such conditions you are under the strict terms of the Licence committing an offence which could possibly result in prosecution and the revoking or your certificate. Like it or not that is a fact. FM. Fisherman Mike Whilst I agree in a broad sense with your sentiments I think your last statement needs clarification...nowhere that I can find in the general licence nor in the wildlife act itself does it specifically exclude baiting as a legitimate means of bird control. 'Stupifying baits' yes but not just baiting. A moot point perhaps and somewhat like the 'introduced' species that are not on the shooting list but it's not specifically illegal. If anyone cares to spend time reading it, and I think if you shoot pigeons you should go here http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countrysi...gen-licence.htm Also note the footer comment about 'this licence may be revoked at any time'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Whats the difference in baiting a field for pigeon and topping up feeders for pheasants in the woods for 6 months. I have never baited a field for pigeon, but have baited for foxes. WF Pheasants are not an indigenous species and are bred solely to be shot and eaten so there could be said to be a slight difference although I do take your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 Slightly different scenario, we have corvids (mostly rooks and jackdaws) which take the grain put down as duck food on a pond, this costs ££. I put down a small bag of grain a few hundred metres away to not disturb the ducks, but to get the crows to shift their attention so I can give them a good whack without disturbing the mallard or putting lead shot over their pond. I don't do it because I want to shoot big bags (although sometimes this happens)- but because hit or miss it is the most effective way of teaching the corvids a lesson, not to steal the duck food. I suppose this scenario is baiting but I don't think in this case it is any different to decoying- that is- it brings the crows which are already in the near vicinity and are already doing much damage, and channeling them in to shootable range. If the pigeons can be proved to be doing significant damage in a locality and it is not suitable/practical to shoot over the field, then I don't think I have any major problems with 'baiting' to get them into a position from which you can safely shoot. If they are causing little or no damage in the area then of course it becomes a more debatable issue. But some of the people who will object to the concept of baiting are probably also some of people who shoot woodies over clover, setaside and stubble when they are not doing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 We are concerned primarily with the facts and the fact is that attracting a wild bird, pest or not to the gun by using grain or the like is ILLEGAL under the current legislative terms of the general licence...if you shoot a bird under such conditions you are under the strict terms of the Licence committing an offence which could possibly result in prosecution and the revoking or your certificate. Like it or not that is a fact. FM. Fisherman Mike Whilst I agree in a broad sense with your sentiments I think your last statement needs clarification...nowhere that I can find in the general licence nor in the wildlife act itself does it specifically exclude baiting as a legitimate means of bird control. 'Stupifying baits' yes but not just baiting. A moot point perhaps and somewhat like the 'introduced' species that are not on the shooting list but it's not specifically illegal. Also note the footer comment about 'this licence may be revoked at any time'! Highlander....You are correct the general Licence doesnot specifically exclude baiting, but what I meant was it could reasonably be construed that baiting a Wild Bird to the Gun ( that has some protection under the Wildlife Act )is a means of attracting birds to be killed that might not necessarily be intent on crop destruction and hence not necessarily required to be shot , we would then be acting outside the remit of the general licence and as such would be culpable. My use of the word fact is perhaps erroneous and misleading, but that is how I interpret the act, and I think if we started large scale baiting others would to. Cheers. FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John - Sporting Shooter Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 As an occasional shooter of pigeons, my take on the subject of baiting fields for pigeons is that it smacks of desperation, lack of knowledge and field craft and the inability to see that if the Government ever gets to hear about it it may have to reconsider the terms of the general licence under which wood pigeons are shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 2, 2006 Report Share Posted February 2, 2006 John, Welcome to the forum and thanks for your contribution to the debate - I think your views are probably shared by the majority of members. I don't believe that baiting is widely practiced, as it requires a lot of time and effort, (and expense), and is only ever undertaken by those who have a serious financial interest in the sport, i.e. they do it for a living. Cat. P.S. Tell us a bit about yourself by filling in your profile - many members do not reply to posters who live in the land of "Not Given". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moley61 Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 I know this time of year can be frustrating for any outdoor pursuit, but chill out guys. I've never baited Pigeons but worked on a farm years ago where the farmer did this with an old fertiliser spreader at the same time every day then every week or so he and a couple of farmer mates would 'control' a lot of pigeons in a short space of time which was the primary objective. He moved the 'bait' around the farm after each shoot and kept the pigeon population managable. He didn't have a lot of time and certainly no profit margin to spare to faff about being too 'sporting'. Not for all of us perhaps, but it does have its place. I find it interesting that the most vehement 'antis' are the ones who've never done it.(It's odd how this is often the case). You will probably find that most people including DEFRA don't make any distinction between one way or another of slaughtering the cast of Bambi/ Watership Down/Tarka the Otter/Peter Rabbit etc. they're just waiting for it to be banned altogether, don't help 'em out by handing them fresh ammunition. If/when shooting is banned, it will be ALL shooting not just those 'unethical baiters'. Cheers, Dave :thumbs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted February 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 You will probably find that most people including DEFRA don't make any distinction between one way or another of slaughtering the cast of Bambi/ Watership Down/Tarka the Otter/Peter Rabbit etc. they're just waiting for it to be banned altogether, don't help 'em out by handing them fresh ammunition. I blame Walt b***** Disney :thumbs: What a debate, some interesting points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Wont the anties see debate's like this as a god send? you know fragmenting our rank's so let's keep our own amunition and not let them have any G2g :thumbs: The anti's can have as much of my ammunition as they can handle...only they won't like the way they get it Fantastic debate reminds me of school days, when lads had a scrap someone would run around the play ground shouting fight, fight, fight got the blood boiling I can tell you, as I was nearly always in the fight The antis can poke it as far as I am concerned so don’t bring them into it, they will attack field sports no matter what we do, so don’t kid yourself you are safe if you "play fair" so to speak they hate you as much as the next field sports participant. In my eyes if birds are causing damage and are hard to bring in then baiting is fine by me, if the situation merits it on a case by case basis. If you have no need to bait then no worries. pavman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlander Posted February 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Pavman you’ve got a good point…why should we kowtow to the antis. This is still (just about) a free country and yet so far they’ve got away with about everything whilst we put up and shut up, roll over and play dead. Can you imagine if say they tried to ban fox hunting in France, there’d be rioting in the streets, fox remains posted to every MP, bloody bits nailed to their doors and piles of dead renards (to say nothing of frenchmen) rotting in the streets of Paris. Here we just accept it and go doggy walking instead…makes me sick to my stomach. I’m no lover of the French (unless she happens to be dressed in a maids outfit) but they’ve got us beat when it comes to protesting their rights. Justifying what I do to an anti doesn’t even come into it…**** ‘em! Still, I digress; this was a debate about baiting for pigeons. In all honesty I put up the subject without any real thoughts on the matter either way and now I’m even more confused. I confess I shoot Woodies first and foremost for sport ‘cause I love them. A beautiful bird to look at, a true aerial acrobat and a worthwhile sporting quarry. As it happens I carry out crop protection (even when I don’t shoot many I can be a great scarecrow) so everyone is happy. I believe the pursuit of any wild game should involve a good deal of field craft, if you want to shoot things at extreme ranges just to prove your eyesight do so at a shooting range, to my mind getting up close and personal is part of the crack (12 feet from a feeding Roebuck on open heath land whilst my two labs stayed back about 100yds will stay with me always) and that large bags should be purely a matter of hard work and skill. So I guess I’m against baiting on that score but I can also see some of the merits of it. Only not in pursuit of big bags, which I guess, is the ultimate aim of doing it in the first place. Any more for any more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 Highlander, Your point about Fox hunting in France is a good one - I spend quite a bit of time in the countryside of Northern France, (Picardy), and I've never seen (or smelt :thumbs: ) a fox, nor have I ever seen or heard of any Fox hunting taking place. I'm not sure if that's just because they do it pretty discretely, or, more likely, they've simply been hunted out of existence..?? One thing that is very apparent is the scarcity of Woodies, which is odd, because they grow a lot of rape, maize, peas & cereals, so there is no shortage of Winter food. Again, I reckon it's because they've been persecuted so efficiently through the use of live bird decoying over the years, that the numbers have never become established like they have in the UK. So for those of us that think baiting is outrageous and unsporting, nip across the water to see what live bird decoying has done to the pigeon population..!! Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 There is a very active fox hunting scene in France. A lot of the hunting is caried out by small, "amateur" packs of hounds and usually driven to guns, but there is also "traditional" hunting. Quite a few foxes are shot during deer and boar drives. We have friends who live in Normandy and there are certainly lots of wood pigeons in that area. There use to be two chaps from France (can't remember the Region) that posted pictures of good bags of pigeons on here. One of them had a large water spaniel, if I remember correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurcherboy Posted February 3, 2006 Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 I have been reading this post with interest. Lots of plus and minus points put forward but I think that it's loaded. If I told the farmers that I was going to bait a field, I am pretty confident that I would be told to **** off their land. You are all missing the point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether we nail them or not, we are keeping them moving, the crops are safe under this practise. Spoke to an absoulute ***** on Tuesday that was baiting. I asked him why and he replied 'I cant get them into the pattern' Reality was he had no hide/field craft and had to cheat. And that is what it is, CHEATING :< Let me have it. I have broad shoulders :thumbs: LB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invector Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 I seem to remember reading about a pigeon shooter, who was shooting pigeons over stubble, and was stopped by, possibly the RSPCA, because he wasn`t actually protecting a crop from damage? Getting the farmer on your side, vis-a-vis baiting, might also be difficult. I know of one farmer who was very annoyed at a pigeon shooter using a magic roundabout to attract birds to one field, at the weekend, then going to work the rest of the week while the pigeons tucked into the crop. He swears there weren`t as many birds there before the bloke arrived with his rotary. At least one forum I read had a bloke who had just obtained some pigeon shooting provided he didn`t use deeks!! What a strange world!! I kill `em every which way I can, but I`ve never baited `em. Should be getting a few when they find the chopped maize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
20GAUGE Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Well I'm looking forward to tomorrow, I knocked a maize cover strip down on Thursday and have spilt some maize and beans, which happened to land on the field in question. Whoops. Looking forward to having some serious shooting.We cant get at the pigeons when the boys are game shooting so it shows the farmer willing at the end of the season. Theres no moral question in it, they need thinning out, end of. And if you like to shoot them in summer months with suabs on the nest carry on, it doesnt sit right with me so I dont bother, the gas guns come out. For those interested a cost of a ton of beans is around the £60 mark, maize is more at £100. A ton is pretty good for about 2000 birds to get well interested and with 3 decent guns you should shoot about 200. I shall report tomorrow. And yes I still ****** about over OSR etc have been out twice this week and shot 2, plenty about they just didnt seem to like the deeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 20 Gauge, Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your outing over the spilt beans & maize. Let us know how you get on, also fill in your profile as a lot of members won't respond to those from the land of "Not Given". Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John - Sporting Shooter Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 In his excellent posting, 20 guage outlines two of the dilemmas facing pigeon shooters. Is it more ethical to shoot pigeons in the summer when they may have squabs than it is to bait a field in the winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab eye Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Hi guys I have been watching in the wings for sometime and this subject got me good and I had to sign up to have my say. I guess I am going to be the guy some of you will hate. I have been shooting since I was old enough to hold a gun under the watchfull eye of my father. Now we shoot in a 16 acre woodland and we put about a ton of Barley down, a bucket a day come sun rain or shine over about 3/4 of an acre, during the winter months only. On a good day we may bag about 18 birds but usually its around a dozen. Surely this sport of ours is about conservation as well, how many of you hand on heart say they put something back in from what you take or is it all about getting into a field and shooting as many as you can. The food we put down is not exclusively taken by pigeons but all species benefit during the hardest time of year and I have seen deer and foxes eat the grain. We place nesting boxes around the wood for the vast range of small birds and have a small watering hole for them as well. Life in our wood is thriving which is borne out by the increase of sparrow hawks. If I were to put down a dozen or so pheasants and feed them and as a bi product I can shoot pigeon as I can't stop them feeding is that then morally ok. Some of you need to get off your soap boxes and look at what your doing for your sport and get real. Rab eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beater Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I dont agree baiting a field for pigeons, but i use a rabbit bait to shoot maggies & crows, so thats the same really..... Like alot of other members I am dead against shooting pigeons when their breeding,this will do more harm to are sport than baiting. I stop end of march when most spring drillings are up if weathers good, start back end of august. Nothing is more distastefull than knowing that young birds could end up slowly dying in the summer heat because the parents have bin shot. I've worked for an agri contractor for 3yrs combining, and the boss says dont bother cutting to low trying to get flattend barley or wheat because if you pick up a nice big duck stone that the combine F@*ked, big repair bill lossed time cutting when the weather is good. So why do shooters think there saving crops by shooting over flatten corn in june-july when most of it wont be botherd to be harvested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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