Frenchieboy Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 I have just returned from one of my permissions where I have had a hell of a decision to make. Read on and let me know what you think you would have done: I had just left the farm house and I spotted one of thr Roe deer lying close by in an "unusual" position. I watched it through my binos for a few minutes and decided that something didn't look right. (I should add at this point that I have been asked not to shoot any of the deer in this area for the time bieng as we want to give them a chance to breed, which they have been doing quite successfully) I returned to the farm house and had a word with the land owner (A Lady) who came out and spent some tome watching the animal. I initially thought that it might have broken a leg or something as it looked as if it was in "discomfort" and the landowner agreed with me. One thing that was quite noticable was that it seemed to be having dificulties in holding its head up to look around. We decided that even though I only had my .222 with me that I should try to get a bit closer to the animal and spend some time "observing it" before I made the decision to dispatch it if I decided that was the "kindest" thing to do for the animal. I stalked it and got to within about 40 yards of it where I stayed and watched it closely. The animal was looking straight at me and there was no doubt in my mind that it knew I was there but it made no attempt to move! After what seemed like about 10 minuted I raised my body and head so that it could clearly see me. It did get up and strolled off. It was not moving with any signs of lameness but it looked quite "strained" and "laboured" in it's movements. Throughout all this time I had the crosshairs clearly on its head with a sfae backstop and could have taken it out cleanly and swiftly with an easy head shot if I had chosen to. I allowed the deer (A doe of about 2 to 3 years old) time to "stroll" off and decided to try to "stalk" it to form a better opinion as it's health or what the problem might be. I came across it again about half an hour later (I am able to recognise it because of a couple of it's chest and rump markings) and it was still "not looking right"! This is one of the roe that are normally found in this woodland so I left it in peace after that. I like to think that I understand a bit about conservation and that the deer are not causing any problems in this area so do not warrant "culling" at this time and moment, but on the other hand I believe that steps should be taken if an animal is suffering and does not have any realistic chances of recovery. After further discussions with the landowner it has been decided that I will have another look tomorrow and re-assess the situation and then decide if it would be best to dispatch it or leave nature to "do her bit"! So if you were faced with these circumstances what would you have done please. If you want to say "Shoot it" that is fine but please justify your reasoning for saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 suppose the legality issues mean that you cant even dispatch it with what you have? unless you have a condition for dispatching on your licence? If FEO got technical about it, you are shooting a deer with a smaller calibre than a .240..!? knowing also that you have just had land passed etc and a possibility of open cert coming your way, id be inclined not to risk your licence..if you are to give it its last rights 'to do the kind thing', use a shotgun. here is a link to dispatching... http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/medi...forRTAs-p36.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libs Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 What ever you choose to do, and I am sure you would make the right decision at the time, do not post it on here for the likes of above to poke 'the law' in front of a very personal and moral issue. Do what needs doing if needs be but do it quietly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 If its humane despatch easiest thing is a shotgun. I had the a similar thing earlier this year frenchie, I found a year old fallow buck in the middle of a field on its own lying down. When I approached it struggled to get up then went down and kept trying. Fortunately I know the keeper and he was on his rounds so turned up and despatched with shotgun. This was one step more advanced but in your case keep an eye on it and see if it has company or has been effectively left and is loosing condition. If so best option is to shoot it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Fair comments guys, thanks. I will have to follow my consience and see how the situation pans out over the next few days. I surpose that if push comes to shove I can call on a mate who has a .243 which is conditioned for deer on an open ticket! That would also allow for a second and more experienced opinion too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katash Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 I know its different but I know a guy that hit a badger in his car once, the poor thing was still alive but quite obviously not going to pull through so as he had a .410 in the boot he finished it off. The next day he went down the police station and informed them of what he had done and promptly got a ticking off and a formal caution for shooting a badger. As others have stated, if you do decide to help it along its way, make sure its done completely within the boundaries of the law .... Unfortunately common sense does not prevail over the law of the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 If you decide that this animal is suffering then you are quite within your rights to dispatch it with whatever means you have if you have permission to be on the land. The 222 would be fine if you could accurately execute a head shot, if in doupt heart/lung shot, close enough then a .22LR or shotgun to the head. Its possible the deer has gorged on some crop and is feeling a bit under the weather, they are tough critters. If it shows signs of broken limbs or previous injury from a gun shot then do what you have do. O.k it with the land owner, assess the animal, if it suffering do your bit, you won't be breaking the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 If you decide that this animal is suffering then you are quite within your rights to dispatch it with whatever means you have if you have permission to be on the land. The 222 would be fine if you could accurately execute a head shot, if in doupt heart/lung shot, close enough then a .22LR or shotgun to the head. Its possible the deer has gorged on some crop and is feeling a bit under the weather, they are tough critters. If it shows signs of broken limbs or previous injury from a gun shot then do what you have do. O.k it with the land owner, assess the animal, if it suffering do your bit, you won't be breaking the law Well said that man someone that actually knows the law. If the deer got up of its own accord and walked away without limping chances are it should be ok, no obvious sighns of an injury. On the other hand keep an eye on it if you can as any internal injuries are imposible to detect by just looking at the animal. If the worst comes to nthe worst and you feel it needs dispatching do so with which ever calibre you have with you so long as it is in your limits and most of all humanely shot so to end the animals suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker3 Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 hi pete could it have been attacked by a dog ?was it disorientated in shock they can look as tho they are lost when this happens . i have seen it go either way (die or live) if the animal is still not looking good over the next couple of days or deteriorates by tommorow shoot it and stop it suffering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 If you decide that this animal is suffering then you are quite within your rights to dispatch it with whatever means you have if you have permission to be on the land. The 222 would be fine if you could accurately execute a head shot, if in doupt heart/lung shot, close enough then a .22LR or shotgun to the head. Its possible the deer has gorged on some crop and is feeling a bit under the weather, they are tough critters. If it shows signs of broken limbs or previous injury from a gun shot then do what you have do. O.k it with the land owner, assess the animal, if it suffering do your bit, you won't be breaking the law You have raised some very good and valid points here, thanks very much for your thought and input! O.K. Let me see if I can deal with your points one at a time. First of all Yes I do have permission to shoot on that piece of land, I have the permission in writing which allows me permission to shoot the deer (if necessary) and it has been inspected and approved by my FEO for up to a .243 I always chat with the landowner and "report" to her on the progress/activities of all the wildlife on the land and as such she trusts in my ability to assess situations fairly well. We have chatted about the culling of deer and have agreed that the amount of Roe on the land does not warrant any sort of a cull at this present time. We do however have an agreement that if I were to come across a situation like this one I should make a dicision and take whatever action I thought for the best, which can be done without consulting her first if I deem it involve an animal suffering. In this particular case I asked her opinion and after seeing the animal she agreed that if I felt that it was suffering (Which it did look like to the both of us at the time) then it should be dispatched. I agree with you that the animal could have eaten something that didn't agree with it and after watching it carefully for some time I am confident that there are no broken bones involved. With this in mind I have told the landowner that in my opinion the animal should be left and checked on daily for the next few days to see if it is showing any signs of recovering. (I described it to her as a possibility that it was just feeling a bit under the weather just like we would be if we had flu) As for the difference between taking a head shot or a heart and lung shot, today I was close enough (About 60 yards) and steady enough with a good safe backstop to have taken a head shot with the confidence that it would have been an instant and humane death. (I pride myself with having a reasonable to high degree of marksmanship skills) I would like to stress at this point that I would not under any circumstances take any shot that I was not confident with on any live quarry, it is something that I feel very strongly about! My only problem at the moment is the legality of using a .222 for Humane Dispatch on an Animal to Save Unecessary Suffering when that animal is not on the conditions for my FAC! As I have said in a previous post I could if need be get a mate in with his .243 who is on an Open Ticket if I decide that dispatching the animal is the right thing to do. We will see what the situation is tomorrow. Thank you for your very helpful input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 It doesnt matter that you do not have the condition on your license and you don't need the legal calibre to dispatch it, it is the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Frenchie - if the Deer is still looking unwell after a couple of days or looks to be getting worse just nail it with your triple. If it's legal in Scotland it will be humane here and I'm 99% certain that recently the law was changed to allow under calibre rifles to be used for dispatch. I don't think you'd have any issues with the FEO if you were to dispatch an injured animal that wasn't listed on your FAC but as with all things like this it's best to just keep quiet about it and then there's no issue anyway! If you do decide to get it sorted just tell us "a mate shot it". It keeps things simple then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonesbach Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 you've got to love some guys on here.... LIBS...i wasnt poking at the law, i was just raising concern to a PW member (who often makes a post that i enjoy reading) that the law can get very picky on things..especially when a past like this is written so openly..there is always a chance someone could 'dob him in' as seen before on here! KATASH.. valid point about the badger, this just shows how the law can be so stupid. REDGUM..we all know that a .22 and a .222 are more than capable of killing a deer, but the fact is, you are not allowed to shoot a deer with anything less than a .240. what if guys with .22 shot a deer and then claimed that it was not looking too good so they just despatched it?! and do you think the law is really.."doesnt matter if its not on my licence or i dont have the condition, i can shoot it" Personally id like an opinion of an FEO on this one..If it was all to be done above board, would it be legal for frenchie to despatch a deer with a rifle .222 or lower..?Q?Q!!! we are trusted to have firearms and if you dont respect that trust put in you, IMO you shouldnt have the privealge. With regards to current situation frenchie, personally, id keep an eye on it and if it is still seen to be suffering in a few days with no improvement then ask your mate to do the honours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 (edited) you've got to love some guys on here....LIBS...i wasnt poking at the law, i was just raising concern to a PW member (who often makes a post that i enjoy reading) that the law can get very picky on things..especially when a past like this is written so openly..there is always a chance someone could 'dob him in' as seen before on here! KATASH.. valid point about the badger, this just shows how the law can be so stupid. REDGUM..we all know that a .22 and a .222 are more than capable of killing a deer, but the fact is, you are not allowed to shoot a deer with anything less than a .240. what if guys with .22 shot a deer and then claimed that it was not looking too good so they just despatched it?! and do you think the law is really.."doesnt matter if its not on my licence or i dont have the condition, i can shoot it" Personally id like an opinion of an FEO on this one..If it was all to be done above board, would it be legal for frenchie to despatch a deer with a rifle .222 or lower..?Q?Q!!! we are trusted to have firearms and if you dont respect that trust put in you, IMO you shouldnt have the privealge. With regards to current situation frenchie, personally, id keep an eye on it and if it is still seen to be suffering in a few days with no improvement then ask your mate to do the honours. Chap, we are all entrusted to know the law as well. You do not need the Opinion of anyone..it is legal, just read..... The Regulatory Reform (Deer) (England and Wales) Order 2007 Edited October 27, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 It doesnt matter that you do not have the condition on your license and you don't need the legal calibre to dispatch it, it is the law. You can use any means that is humane to kill any animal [and rightly so]. So in that regard the .222 is fine, but although it is legal to kill it in this way you MUST abide by the conditions on your FAC and you are committing an offence if you don't. You could fall foul of the law here. My FAC has the line "The humane killing of animals" towards the bottom as a general condition for all firearms. I have enquired and that would let me destroy any animal assuming the method was humane. Your other option is a shotgun with some SG's. If you could get so close in the daytime there is something seriously wrong with it, humane dispatch is always preferable to letting nature take its course. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 You know guys there is a bit of confusion over the law on Humane Dispatch and I am really not prepared to take any chances with the law, especially when it is my ticket that is at stake. I have worked hard to keep everything that I do legal and above board and have now made some very good headway with regards to getting my FAC opened so i am not prepared to chance ruining all that. On top of that I really do not want to be the cause of any arguments on this forum, we are here to help each other (Or at least we should be) rather than end up arguing with each other at every opportunity. I do not know who is right or who is wrong in what has been said about "Humane Dispatch" so I have made the decision to just monitor the situation over the deers health and if there is a deterioration then I will call my friend in with his .243 to dispatch the animal as I know that he will come straight out for the job as he, (just like me,) thinks that animals welfare should come high on the priorities of any shooter as it is all tied in with conservation. I think this has got to be the safest option. Please note though that by doing this I am not saying that any one of you are wrong, I just want to stay on the right side of the law and avoid any arguments! I really do appreciate all of the advice given. Thank you all for trying your best to help and advise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) Frenchieboy, there is no confusion at all were the law is concerned. Many slate the DSC qualifications but its times like this that prove there point. It covers the law in England, Scotland and Wales in relation to deer and firearms law, something we should all know if we shoot deer. You can despatch the deer with your 222, of course you must legally have this calibre on your license and have permission to shoot on the said ground. If that deer was down with a broken leg or worse it would have suffered more if you had to find someone with an open license and a 240 or over calibre to shoot it. You could even shoot it at night if need be. Unfortunatly some around my way exploit this law by shooting deer at night with foxing rifles ( deer are usually pretty easy targets at night). All it takes is to break the deers leg or wrap wire around the animals antlers before its chucked in the pick up and you have your excuse if the police stop you. But of course do what you think is right for you, there are many so called experts willing to add their bit on here, some of it makes me laugh. Please do concider the DSC1 it you are shooting deer, its not a legal requirement but it will be very helpful with study books stating the law on deer and firearms. Edited October 28, 2010 by Redgum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 You can despatch the deer with your 222, of course you must legally have this calibre on your license and have permission to shoot on the said ground. If that deer was down with a broken leg or worse it would have suffered more if you had to find someone with an open license and a 240 or over calibre to shoot it. But your FAC HAS to be conditioned to allow either shooting of deer OR humane dispatch (or both). Or you are committing an offence. This is where you might trip up, not on the calibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 But your FAC HAS to be conditioned to allow either shooting of deer OR humane dispatch (or both). Or you are committing an offence. This is where you might trip up, not on the calibre. Another candidate that needs to do the DSC1 course I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedwickedmotox Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Hi guys i have found at this time of year deer eat apples and acorns, these ferment inside them making them drunk, we have had bullocks on the farm do this to. I bring this up because a freind of mine had this problem a couple of years ago with a roe pricket, after 2 days he shot it gralloched it after inspecting it for any external problems to find one of it stomachs full of acorns!hope you get to the bottom of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camokid Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 i no i shoot and hunt but i dont like seeing a animal in pain sometimes things have to be done fast and swift i think do whats best fot the beast as long as its needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Go back and shoot it. Then drive down to Exmoor and..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Go back and shoot it. Then drive down to Exmoor and..... When I worked in Egypt teaching diving, I was on a rare day off, so headed in to the town and saw a taxi run a dog over that was just standing in the road, he could have slowed down or stopped, but no he run right over it, which broke its back. And it was screaming in pain and was going around in circles as its back legs didn’t work, so I quickly grabbed a long piece of concrete slab (As Hurghada was a building site) and hit it very hard once and it was dead. All the locals walked by, but a Dutch guy came up to me and shook my hand and said I was a very good man to put the dog out of pain very quickly... As you posted the thread to find out what was the right thing to do, well there has been many answers, but an animal can’t ask and as we are supposed to be the top of the tree, do what is best for the animal in pain, however do it quickly…. TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 I have been in a similar, but not the same situation, with a an RTA Roe. It was my call, I quickly assessed the situation and did the right thing. Your deer may just be bit off colour Frenchie, if you think you will see it fairly regularly then keep an eye on it, if you aren't confident you will see it again and it still looks decidedly unwell personally I would dispatch it. It doesn't need to be discussed it just needs to be done as humanely as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsm1968 Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 What ever you choose to do, and I am sure you would make the right decision at the time, do not post it on here for the likes of above to poke 'the law' in front of a very personal and moral issue. Do what needs doing if needs be but do it quietly. i no i shoot and hunt but i dont like seeing a animal in pain sometimes things have to be done fast and swift i think do whats best fot the beast as long as its needed. I have been in a similar, but not the same situation, with a an RTA Roe.It was my call, I quickly assessed the situation and did the right thing. Your deer may just be bit off colour Frenchie, if you think you will see it fairly regularly then keep an eye on it, if you aren't confident you will see it again and it still looks decidedly unwell personally I would dispatch it. It doesn't need to be discussed it just needs to be done as humanely as possible. All the advice you need, and with the animals interests first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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