old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Old`un, it seems you the one that knows very little of what they are talking about. 1, Magpies are protected 2, There is NO protected birds list and 3, its sparrowhawk, not sparrow hawk. well I am in big trouble then because I been braking law number 1 for years and thanks for telling me about number 2 looks like there is no protection list, goody sorry about number 3 bit dyslectic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Ho just one more thing I don’t think the public are that stupid take a look at this link http://songbirds-slaughter.org.uk/2010/07/05/155#comment-201 They seem a level-headed, unbiased bunch A perfect reflection of public opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 That's got nothing to do with the public, that's some fruitcake extremist site. Bunch of mentalists. Get over it. Are you recruiting for them? Funny, “fruitcake extremist” the website seems to have replies from old ladies who put a bit of bread out for the birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshiretaxidermy Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 well I am in big trouble then because I been braking law number 1 for years and thanks for telling me about number 2 looks like there is no protection list, goody sorry about number 3 bit dyslectic Your not right in the head ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Your not right in the head ....... Funny I have just passed my police medical!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Funny I have just passed my police medical!! that doesn't prove a thing in reply to your original question my opinion is for the moment NO, but i reserve the right to change my mind if any culling starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrshiretaxidermy Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Funny I have just passed my police medical!! Just having admitted breaking the law, id go edit your post if i was you. While your at it, familiarise yourself with the various GL`s that NE issue each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 that doesn't prove a thing in reply to your original question my opinion is for the moment NO, but i reserve the right to change my mind if any culling starts. That’s quite a funny reply, seems I have stirred the hornets nest on this one, not sure what ayrshiretaxidermy ranting about hope he will tell me what law I have broken, Seems to know all about abbreviations “various GL`s that NE issue each year” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Old'un Possibly you do not understand but all wild birds are protected. We are permitted to shoot them under certain licences or seasons. Perhaps you should look the law up before spouting on. Andno sparrowhawks should be added to the OGL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Ok let’s go back to the beginning, some of my replies have been flippant but I am only meeting fire with fire, if the reply is sensible then I will give a sensible reply But my main argument is why is it ok to cull Magpies but mention the word Hawk and hold onto your hat!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 should cormorants be taken of the list as well? & Merganzers ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Old'un Possibly you do not understand but all wild birds are protected. We are permitted to shoot them under certain licences or seasons. Perhaps you should look the law up before spouting on. Andno sparrowhawks should be added to the OGL Ok have read the General Licence and if you take it literally we are all braking the law and I quote “These conditions include the requirement that the user must be satisfied that legal (including non-lethal) methods of resolving the problem are ineffective or impracticable.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Not really as when shooting pigeons it is easy to demonstrate that the other methods do not work. See any rape field covered in gas bangers and kites etc at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Not really as when shooting pigeons it is easy to demonstrate that the other methods do not work. See any rape field covered in gas bangers and kites etc at the moment. It does say ALL other methods, answer to your question is, not many but on the same note there’s not been a lot of pigeons either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 By this I mean how many of us have taken a pot shot at a Magpie when we have been walking around our farms, now the question is what harm was that Magpie doing flying over my farm. Or should I run around the field trying to scare the crows or pigeons off the field before I shot at them. Seems to me the ice is very thin!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) There can be no comparison between corvids and raptors. The number of raptors is controlled by the number of prey species. The number of prey controls the number of sparrowhawks not the other way around. After all if the number of prey drops what are the sparrowhawks going to eat. In contrast corvids take young birds and eggs for a limited part of the year ( the breeding season ) and turn to other foods for the remainder of the year. If no eggs or fledglings are available then corvids can live very well on other foods from corn , acorns , large insects , mans rubbish and so on. So the number of fledgling\egg prey does not control the number of corvids. There have been many studies done to show that over all sparrowhawks have little effect on the overall number of breeding birds. Perhaps the best study is Bookham Common where the number of breeding birds have been monitored since the 1930s. In the 1930s to 40s sparrowhawks were common , they then became locally extinct after the effect of DDT. After the chemical was banned sparrowhawks slowly came back to their former numbers. Though there have been changes in some birds like hawfinches disappearing while others such as great tits showing steep increases overall the number of breeding birds in the woods has remained fairly constant when sparrowhawks were or were not present. Showing they have little impact on songbird breeding numbers. Remember birds breed to match the maximum carrying capacity of their habitat. Blue tits raise an average of 10 young a year to allow for high mortality from starvation , weather and predation. In contrast sea birds such as gannets only lay 1-2 eggs as the survival rate of the young birds is much higher than the blue tits. The most important factor in our farmland birds is habitat quality. If the cover , food and breeding sites are there then small bird populations will thrive with or without sparrowhawks. If the habitat quality is poor then both the song birds and their predators will struggle. And the big problem today is modern farming is so efficient that the habitat quality on most farms is poor. So do not blame sparrowhawks if your song birds are declining. So Oldun leave your sparrowhawks alone and if you wish to increase the number of song birds on your shoot get the farmer to improve the wildlife habitat on his farm. Edited February 13, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) And as to how much harm corvids do to the average farmer or keeper . Little I suspect with the exception of rooks and crows. The exception maybe free range poultry where magpies and jackdaws can be a real problem. Edited February 13, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 anser2 is spot on, if prey numbers falls, predator numbers fall, as predator numbers fall, prey number start to rise, as prey number start to rise, predator number start to rise, as predator numbers stat to rise, prey numbers start to fall back to the top... However, all this assumed you have a good environment for the prey species, and this ,as answer2 says, is the bigger problem, loss of habitat. Loss of habitat for small mammals almost wiped our barn owls, it would not have made a jot of difference if you had launched a massive barn owl breeding programme, no food they die. This is why there is so much chatter at high level about biodiversity, and re-creating habitat. Set aside did not work so its just about been scrapped and replaced by the Campaign for the Farmed Environment... Anyway, in my opinion no need to add these smaller raptors to the OGL, as they do not meet the criteria. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) As for your question why is it ok to kill corvids and yet not raptors. In part that must be due to history when man abused raptors in this country causing the extinction of a number of British species that are now comming back. As a shooting community we do not have a good track record when it comes to raptors. And even if a licence was given to shoot say buzzards how many people on this forum can tell the difference between a a harrier and a buzzard , few i suspect and fewer between very rare species such as honey buzzards and common or rough legged buzzards. There are times when even the experts have trouble telling them apart in flight let alone us lesser mortals. the fall out from anyone killing a hawk tar us all with the same brush in the eyes of the public and in time may lead to the loss of the sport we all love. Edited February 13, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I must say I share you concerned about quarry ID. As a beater cringe remembering over the last 20 years or so of the owls and sparrowhawks that I have seen shot at because the gun thought it was a female pheasant! We have had more than enough insurance claims for people shooting birds of prey being flown by falconers, and one crazy claim for a guy that shot a goshawk thinking it was a pigeon - as it was the same colour (ish) I guess! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Flippen 'ek, just what is this all about, there are only small numbers of Sparrow Hawk round my way and they are not an issue. I'm still not sure if this is for real or a wind up, but comparing Sparrow Hawk to Magpies certainly is a joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Flippen 'ek, just what is this all about, there are only small numbers of Sparrow Hawk round my way and they are not an issue. I'm still not sure if this is for real or a wind up, but comparing Sparrow Hawk to Magpies certainly is a joke! Same here. Drive a mile down any country lane and you'll see a couple of magpies, you'd have to drive a load more miles to see a single sparrowhawk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Like all things to do with wildlife a lot comes down to region. We have an abundance of Sparrowhawkes, Buzzards and Ravens yet thousands of pounds are spent on Skylark conservation projects and the like. Given the choice I would like to see a small cull of Buzzards and Ravens based on regional numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerstalkerlunt Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Like all things to do with wildlife a lot comes down to region. We have an abundance of Sparrowhawkes, Buzzards and Ravens yet thousands of pounds are spent on Skylark conservation projects and the like. Given the choice I would like to see a small cull of Buzzards and Ravens based on regional numbers. I agree with small culls depending on regional numbers. Where I am in Aberdeenshire there is tonnes of buzzards, a few weeks back me and a friend counted 8 circling one field. If you have too many predators they will destroy other species densities, thats why people shoot foxes and the exact same thing applies to birds of prey in high densities. Edited February 13, 2011 by Deerstalkerlunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243ack Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 if prey numbers falls, predator numbers fall, as predator numbers fall, prey number start to rise, as prey number start to rise, predator number start to rise, as predator numbers stat to rise, prey numbers start to fall back to the top... According to David BASC. So where would fox numbers stabilise at if we didn't control them?. Once Man began to interfere with 'natural balance' in any form; then artificial intervention is inevitable if 'unnatural balance' is to be maintained. I do not wish to see the last fox shot; but do my 'bit' during the year to limit their numbers. The same should be applied to any and all other species whose numbers are not naturally controlled. Sorry David, I do not agree with your mantra. Deerstalkerhunt is closer to my views. Here in Leicestershire we have a burgeoning population of foxes, badgers, carrion crows, rats, buzzards and sparrowhawks. Emotion should take a back seat here - but it won't as the lightly informed 'visitors' to the Countryside are usually the loudest shouters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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