Stirring up a hornets nest?

[jacksdad]

Correct, never been in a union, because in the real world when you get sacked you just slap the clown who sacked you and get on with finding another job!

If and when my business ventures stop bringing in money I will sell my house....paid for it years ago by pumping my money into getting mortgage free, I've been looking after myself for a long time, something a few others should try!

[Bad Monkey]

The 70's never left us, we just changed our haircuts. Employment laws have been introduced to protect either side, and have cancelled each other out. At the end of the day, action speaks louder than ********!

FIGHT THE POWER DUDES!!

 

Correct, action does speak louder than ******** and that's why so many UK companies have moved production overseas. They took that action to overcome the ******** of the unions that were trying to drag them dowm and price them out of the market, you do remember the good the unions did for the coal and steel industries? sorry i forgot, we don't have a coal or steel industry to speak of any more. won't be long before Vauxhall's Ellesmere port plant follows, Luton are almost there already, realistically they're both only on a stay of execution.

[MM]

Does no one feel that the offer the government put forward two weeks ago was a fair deal?

 

Even the unions seemed to suggest it was going in the right direction and portions of it were acceptable.

 

But, they seemed to object to the increase in donations of 3.2% as this is a pay cut.

 

For me this was the best offer they were going to get, by striking all that is going to happen is the government will dig their heels in and say **** you!

 

Striking has never achieved anything except increased redundancy,quicker closures and a worse settlement. Union leaders live in a bubble justifying their own existence. Oh and of course on huge pay packets and fantastic expense accounts!

 

Oh, also, how the **** can then justify these strikes.. Turnout seems to be less than 30% in most cases and vote for strike is around 60%... Do the math, most haven't voted for action and select apathy instead.

 

That's democracy!

 

 

eh? how do you figure that? Have you never heard of collective bargaining?

 

turnout is nothing to do with it (could spell irrelivant hahah) If 3 people turn out, and 2 vote yes, then the majority wins. Simples i think the phrase goes. Do you know how hard it is to get people to return ballot papers? 60% is a massive turnout.

[pimpkiller]

if they dont like the job and conditions there are plenty of people who will I dont get the logic, public sector runs on money from taxing the private sector, private sector not bringing in the dough less tax less public sector. Lets not forget public sector has better rights, working conditions, pay, pension ect. Working for the public sector used to be a civil service, SERVICE

[JustJon]

Im not one to make things personal on this forum, so i wont do it now as your one of the chaps on here i do respect, but do you not think this is a last resort? Hardship is here and its about time people stood up to whatever government is in power. I dont want to get to retierment age, and find the money ive been paying in for 30 years has gone.

 

If we where really in hardship I think we'd all sell our guns, stop buying our ammo and put the cash towards food instead! If we can all afford a hobby were not that hard up.

[MM]

Correct, action does speak louder than ******** and that's why so many UK companies have moved production overseas. They took that action to overcome the ******** of the unions that were trying to drag them dowm and price them out of the market, you do remember the good the unions did for the coal and steel industries? sorry i forgot, we don't have a coal or steel industry to speak of any more. won't be long before Vauxhall's Ellesmere port plant follows, Luton are almost there already, realistically they're both only on a stay of execution.

 

 

**** me, i should be a Union rep Ok, did you vote Tory? (yes, i also did) Well, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! Back in the late 80's early 90's (cant remember the date) the Tory part brought in anti trade union laws, as they feared the peoples voice becomning too loud. We are a product of our own ideals, that we created this. Lest realise we have the power to reverse what we have allowed to happen. People only seem to see that they cant get to work, due to the stupid london underground staff striking again. People like this are the reason abortion is legal!!

[Bad Monkey]

**** me, i should be a Union rep Ok, did you vote Tory? (yes, i also did) Well, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! Back in the late 80's early 90's (cant remember the date) the Tory part brought in anti trade union laws, as they feared the peoples voice becomning too loud. We are a product of our own ideals, that we created this. Lest realise we have the power to reverse what we have allowed to happen. People only seem to see that they cant get to work, due to the stupid london underground staff striking again. People like this are the reason abortion is legal!!

 

I wouldn't bother, nobody's signing up, we've just kicked out a trade union government for damn near bankrupting us, same as they did back in the 70's.

 

Capitalism may be the unequal distribution of blessings, but communism is the equal distribution of misery.

 

Therefore ends tonights sermon. I've gotta be up early to go beating for a bunch of filthy rich guns, maybe i should go on strike because i've gotta stand around in the cold for 6 hours for a measly 20 quid

 

G'night Comrade

[Boromir]

I'm 27 in just over 2 months and I haven't even put a penny towards my pension. I do hard graft everyday and although I moan about it sometimes I get on with my work as that's what I'm paid to do. But I do enjoy my work for what I get to see that a lot of other people don't, if I didn't like it I would leave and let somebody else have the opportunity to take my place.

 

Striking will get them no where and good luck to them Im sure there's plenty of people waiting in line to take there jobs on a less decent package.

 

If this country goes like Greece and Ireland I certainly wont put the blame on the present government but the people who ignored and by passed a good deal that was offered to them and still refused to take it so they can disrupt the living of those that are paying there wages(Me and other Private sector workers).

 

Im against the Strikes and you have to be a idiot to support them.

[MM]

I wouldn't bother, nobody's signing up, we've just kicked out a trade union government for damn near bankrupting us, same as they did back in the 70's.

and re-ellected a government who tried to destory the trade union movement.

Capitalism may be the unequal distribution of blessings, but communism is the equal distribution of misery.

 

Therefore ends tonights sermon. I've gotta be up early to go beating for a bunch of filthy rich guns, maybe i should go on strike because i've gotta stand around in the cold for 6 hours for a measly 20 quid

Through your own choice

 

G'night Comrade

 

 

I'm 27 in just over 2 months and I haven't even put a penny towards my pension.(but you expect the rest of the tax payers to fund your retirement?) I do hard graft everyday and although I moan about it sometimes I get on with my work as that's what I'm paid to do. But I do enjoy my work for what I get to see that a lot of other people don't, if I didn't like it I would leave and let somebody else have the opportunity to take my place.

 

Striking will get them no where and good luck to them Im sure there's plenty of people waiting in line to take there jobs on a less decent package.

 

If this country goes like Greece and Ireland I certainly wont put the blame on the present government but the people who ignored and by passed a good deal that was offered to them and still refused to take it so they can disrupt the living of those that are paying there wages(Me and other Private sector workers).

 

Im against the Strikes and you have to be a idiot to support them. or somebody who cares about the future rights of workers

[Boromir]

No I dont expect other tax payers to pay my retirement but everything I buy or do with my money is taxed and all your luxurious pensions is one factor that helping to push them higher so I end up with less money to save for my Pension when I get round to it hopefully, saving up for a house first.

There are rights you just need to fight your own corner instead of getting some overpaid **** of a union leader to do it for you.

Edited November 26, 2011 by BFG

[MM]

fighting a loosing battle really. you cant buy education.

[Bleeh]

So to sum up so far 90% of people are against. We live in a democracy. Decision made. Strip the pensions.

 

 

Can we start by stripping your pension, then?.

 

The people who moan against strikes like these are people who haven't invested years of education, training, and time into a career.

 

It's easy to separate yourself when it's not you discovering that the pension you where promised has been reduced by up to £280,000, but I know for a fact the moment something befouls you, you'll come winging onto the forum about the great unjustness of life.

 

The great pensions where always a Perk of being a teacher, people have taken the job and kept it for decades because of it. No one on this forum has not got, or had, the opportunity to retrain as a Teacher, so you all have your own reasons for not following that career path and you it's nothing but hypocrital to attempt to judge the job (With Great pay, hours, holiday and pension!) that very few are willing to do.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Bleeh

[MM]

Can we start by stripping your pension, then?.

 

The people who moan against strikes like these are people who haven't invested years of education, training, and time into a career.

 

It's easy to separate yourself when it's not you discovering that the pension you where promised has been reduced by up to £280,000, but I know for a fact the moment something befouls you, you'll come winging onto the forum about the great unjustness of life.

 

The great pensions where always a Perk of being a teacher, people have taken the job and kept it for decades because of it. No one on this forum has not got, or had, the opportunity to retrain as a Teacher, so you all have your own reasons for not following that career path and you it's nothing but hypocrital to attempt to judge the job (With Great pay, hours, holiday and pension!) that very few are willing to do.

 

 

but will they listen? Nope!

[Bloke]

Im not one to make things personal on this forum, so i wont do it now as your one of the chaps on here i do respect, but do you not think this is a last resort? Hardship is here and its about time people stood up to whatever government is in power. I dont want to get to retierment age, and find the money ive been paying in for 30 years has gone.

 

Respect to you sir as well. Looking back at my post, I did come over all "Daily Mail" there for a minute .

I do take your point, my daughter and a lot of my friends all still work in the NHS, so these proposed cuts affect them. However, from the changes to the pension proposed, certainly in my daughter's case (which is the only one where I have seen a statistical breakdown) although there are reductions, it will still not be a bad pension. My sphere (as I seem to remember is yours) is nursing, so I agree that I cannot comment on all the other jobs and how it affects them, some may be a lot worse off ( I have been retired since 2004, so forgive my lack of knowledge). Certainly, my daughter feels that although she would like her pension to stay as it is, she acknowledges the hardship many others are going through and feels that some cuts may be unavoidable, rather than more redundancies. From what I could see from my daughter's pension forecasts, It didn't seem that there was any question of the pension not being paid, but paid later.

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. I feel that the role of supporting staff and fighting for their rights is important, but I must admit to not believing that mass walkouts like this are altogether effective, a phenomena of the 70's, not now, when the support of the public sector from the public at large seems to be at an all-time low, or it runs the risk of being counter-productive and losing any support that existed, making it harder to return to the negotiating table afterwards (as was seen in the recent BA fiasco). Unfortunately, I can all too clearly remember some of the ridiculous situations of the mid to late 70's, such as a big miner on the hospital picket line threatening me with a pickaxe handle because I wanted to go in through the gates - he wouldn't believe I lived there, in the staff residences!

 

I have worked in both the private and public sector, as well as been self-employed in the past, and it still amazes me how some people from the private sector gloated at the public sector when we were so low paid in the past, telling us we shouldn't take it and we should demand more, but now that we do, they still criticise !!

 

Maybe you are right and I am wrong, because of the time distance from my retirement, I may not be fully au fait with the facts, because as many people around the country (some of whom are on here) need to be aware, a lot of what you read in the papers are outright lies concerning public sector pension rates and conditions. If so then I am sorry, but I am just not sure that we have yet reached that last resort, I look at this sort of negotiation like an argument that escalates into a fight (Strike), of which I have seen and been part of too many, in my mental health work. Talking is always better than fighting, because once you up the ante, it is very difficult to go back, it usually only escalates, then where do you go? Having said that, yes, there is eventually a line where you have to fight.

Either way it seems now that it is inevitable. I hope it has a good outcome and that the public see through the BS to the real issues here and that a mutual agreement is reached, so that it never needs to happen again. All the best to you and your colleagues.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Bloke

[djgeoff]

you keep going on about jobs ' if you don't like then walk find another'.

its not just about jobs its my/our bl...y pensions your are talking about, i have worked and paid into pensions ever since i started work, planning ahead for my retirement only to find after all these years this s..t government now are moving the goal posts......come on this is f......g out of order!

 

at this rate if you are lucky enough to reach retirement the pension will be worth f... all.

 

so to all those that keep saying 'walk etc' get a life! or are the ones that already sitting snug with your pension.

 

Saying that i do not think all out striking is the answer, you would lose pay and in turn striking affect's your pension,

 

personally work to rule is the way to go.

 

yes i would strike if needed but for some reason unite have not sent out ballot papers, so in my case i will be working like many where i work.

 

enough is enough with this ******* **** government we have to do something or we will be totally scr....d.

[Laird Lugton]

Correct, action does speak louder than ******** and that's why so many UK companies have moved production overseas. They took that action to overcome the ******** of the unions that were trying to drag them dowm and price them out of the market, you do remember the good the unions did for the coal and steel industries? sorry i forgot, we don't have a coal or steel industry to speak of any more. won't be long before Vauxhall's Ellesmere port plant follows, Luton are almost there already, realistically they're both only on a stay of execution.

 

Your theory falls flat when you look across the channel at Germany. Far stronger labour rules which allow strikes and "warning strikes" with less than 24 hour notice. Yet they out manufacture us in a big way. Perhaps having one side with a big stick (employer) and one with a small stick (union) (UK) is not as advantageous as having sticks of equal length?

 

My colleagues in France earn more than me, are protected by the state laws and union in a big way and will be the last to be made redundant. Our company has staff based in 6 European countries and the UK employees will be the first to go in the event of redundancies. After 10 years I'd get less than a months salary as pay off........yes stripping the unions of power and giving one side all the power is a great idea and has made the UK employee the slave labour of Europe.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Laird Lugton

[Laird Lugton]

It's interesting the vast majority of posts are of the opinion that yes there pension should be reduced with comments of "don't like it walk" or "my pension is rubbish" etc.

 

For the state of private sector pensions there are two people responsible, Gordon Brown and the individual. Gordon Brown taxed the pensions and the individual is responsible for his or her own retirement. Should the public sector pension be dragged down just because the private sector pension are rubbish? That is a stupid argument.

 

I work in the private sector and have to put 20% of my salary into a private pension to aim for a decent retirement. Do I wish ill on the public sector? No. What I do wish is that we didn't waist billions on pointless wars which could be spent on improving the country, better NHS, better pensions etc.

 

No one has actually questioned the Government line on whether the current public sector pension are affordable. There is a very interesting article in the right wing Daily Telegraph (my daily read ) that actually suggest they are. Here it is: Daily Telegraph

 

Here is a quote from the article:

 

I'm not going to try and argue that further public sector pension reform is unnecessary and wrong, but there is something plainly unsatisfactory about "race to the bottom" policy, or levelling public sector pensions down to the disgracefully low standards that rule in the private sector.

 

Having largely destroyed a perfectly good system of private sector pension provision, government now seems intent on doing the same to public pensions too. I exaggerate, of course, but only a little. Hutton could have gone the whole hog and as has occurred in Sweden, attempted to move public sector workers off defined benefit pensions altogether and onto the money purchase schemes that now rule in the private sector. But that would never have passed muster politically.

 

So do I support the strikes? Yes. Someone has to try and curtail the madness of politicians.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Laird Lugton

[Mungler]

Anyone remember the general strike of the 70's and the miners strikes?

 

Striking doesn't work.

 

What's going on now is irrelevant by comparison to what's round the corner; slashing the over stocked public sector headcount and getting a grip on the benefits bill.

 

I am intrigued to know what the pro strikers make of the strikes against austerity measures going on in Greece? People fighting for their "rights" or people who have had it too good for too long kicking off when the cupboard is bare?

 

I am also intruiged to know how people would view the Thomas Cook workers if they announced they were going to go on strike? Would that get them or the company anywhere or be of any benefit to anyone when faced with a stark economic crisis? I think we would all think them mad.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Mungler

[Spiderdude]

It's still a fact that a good deal has been offered in the circumstances, individual unions are making progress, but the larger ones won't accept it.

 

So a little bit more has to be paid in, well we all are paying a little bit more for everything.

 

That's not the current governments fault, you need to look at Brown and Blair before him to see where it went wrong.

 

It is a typical Labour mess, create the **** storm, get voted out and leave the country to others to fix.

 

Our family is one of those affected by the public sector pension review, we've read the recent proposals and we think it's a good deal.. It's a shame that those who follow the unions like sheep don't take time to read these things!

Edited November 26, 2011 by Spiderdude

[Justintime]

I was a strikeing miner in the 80s my dad was in the 70s remember the power cuts,in the 70s and the Heath goverment it worked then,But the 80s didnt 12 months of liveing on hand outs for NOWT maggy still shut them.The only looser is the striker they will do what they want regadless,People dont count in this country anymore just those in authority class devision them and us

Edited November 26, 2011 by Justintime

[willy1]

I'm not a fan of industrial action. If your jobs **** either leave it or learn to love it, don't bleat on about it.

 

totally agree, you know what the conditions are BEFORE you start working,IF you DON'T like it ,then don't take it.

Industrial action (strikes) NEVER do any good,just cost the taxpayer more money and wasted time. :angry:

 

Alan

[Mrs Sweepy]

My sons school has done all they can to stay open.

The last week we have so many emails from the head telling us she would do everything

in her power to keep the school open.

 

Last time was right in the middle of the GCSEs

so what staff she had she made sure covered those children who where sitting them .

This meant that the first year and second had the day off.

But everyone else can in .

 

She has tried her best to cover again this time .

And has kept us well informed .

But this time it has really been taken out of her hands

and now she has been told to close the school .

 

Like most parents I have not always seen eye to eye with my sons schooling.

But in this case this headmistress has really gained my respect .

xxxxxSuzy

[Imperfection]

One good will come from this strike-the roads will be quieter and that makes my job easier.

[Yellow Bear]

Im not one to make things personal on this forum, so i wont do it now as your one of the chaps on here i do respect, but do you not think this is a last resort? Hardship is here and its about time people stood up to whatever government is in power. I dont want to get to retierment age, and find the money ive been paying in for 30 years has gone.

 

 

Well some of us have - a certain "prudent chancellor" whapped a massive 40% windfall tax on private pension schemes and continued to tax them highly for the next 15 years at the same time as destroying the economy and boosting the gold plated pensions of public services.

 

Now in the position where my pension pot is half what it was projected to be in the mid 90s despite putting well over 10% in (note ps are being asked to boost to 8%).

 

So cut the BS about fighting the government, I'm sick of hearing how hard done-by they are, the PS have had it cushy for the last decade now they are being asked to come into line with their paymasters (the tax paying private sector) and not expect more for less!

 

One additional point -whatever was offered the unions wanted a strike just to prove a point.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Yellow Bear

[willy1]

 

 

One additional point -whatever was offered the unions wanted a strike just to prove a point.

 

:yes: :yes: :yes:

 

 

Alan