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1 hour ago, saddler said:

The definition of S2 ammunition is what?

Not what your suggesting, it is somehow linked to the bore size or area with the minimum number of maximum size pellets.

so you cannot put one .36 ball in and five or six number 9 shot and still be section 2.

Think about it the law is not stupid and would not allow such a simple way round the law regarding section 1.

Hopefully somebody will be along with the full definition of section 2 cartridge, if not feel free to speak to your firearms licensing officer.

 

 

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2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

“As to the buckshot, use the largest legal ball that will fit the case...then add smaller shot to bring the shot quantity in line with S.2 requirements”

I would check that idea with your firearms licensing officer, because it will still be section 1, for example adding a single largest ball then say five number 9 shot will still make it section 1 ammunition.

Thanks for all the feedback - I am really careful about this sort of thing so have gone straight to the firearms act text and its clearly stated as at least 5 pellets none of which should be larger than 0.36" (9.14mm) I asked the FEO and he told me my understanding was correct there is no requirement for all pellets to all be the same size

"shotgun cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridges are covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificate authorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotgun cartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball or projectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate."

 

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1 hour ago, saddler said:

The definition of S2 ammunition is what?

As per the firearms act it doesnt define S2 ammunition as a stand alone statement, what it does is defines the need to hold an FAC except in the circumstances of;

(4)This section applies to any ammunition for a firearm, except the following articles, namely:—

(a)cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter;

(b)ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol; and

(c)blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter measured immediately in front of the rim or cannelure of the base of the cartridge.

 

The obvious benefit of a 410 is that it can be used for vermin (rats,squirrels, rabbits) on private land where it wouldnt be practical to use a 12G where it would be perfectly legal to have a 3" 12G cartridge with (say) 10x 00 or 0 Buck - why would it not be okay to have some 00 Buck and some #4 Buck (as an example)?

Edited by Downforce
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The Americans have experimented with "duplex" cartridges over the years and never really nailed it.

I guess the only thing to do would be to sit a single large ball on top of the few small pellets and try it, could be an interesting "all rounder"

Let us know if you do experiment.

Edited by TIGHTCHOKE
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38 minutes ago, London Best said:

Downforce, May we ask what you are hoping to shoot with these cartridges?

Pretty much all the 410 commercial loads are #6 birdshot or smaller and although I have found #4 Birdshot from justcartridges as I mentioned before when I tried to shoot a squirrel sized milk carton filled with water I wasnt that impressed that the energy at the point of impact 10-15m away - so i was trying to find a load that would retain energy over 20m and cleanly kill a larger vermin (squirrel for example). I only bought a 410 as we had rats coming in from next door but I really like the calibre and am particularly interested in the ability of the load to fire straight and produce a decent pattern. As per SADDLER'S suggestion http://www.fourten.org.uk/mwbuck.html 

However I cant seem to find that Winchester 5 shot 000 Buck - if you read that article you'll note the comment about mixing smaller shot with buck - theres a thing!

Anyway - back to the original questions - does anyone have experience loading such 410 loads with readily available components and does anyone have a Mossberg 500 that sometimes misfeeds 3" cartridges (as I could go with these Winchesters but woulld want them to feed correctly).

66d12a3605d541b45e0b837af991b717c103fce6.jpg

Edited by Downforce
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2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Not what your suggesting, it is somehow linked to the bore size or area with the minimum number of maximum size pellets.

so you cannot put one .36 ball in and five or six number 9 shot and still be section 2.

Think about it the law is not stupid and would not allow such a simple way round the law regarding section 1.

Hopefully somebody will be along with the full definition of section 2 cartridge, if not feel free to speak to your firearms licensing officer.

 

 

WRONG. On both counts!

As per the cut & paste definition above this reply, it is EXACTLY what I was suggesting - the law does not state that all the shot in a S2 cartridge MUST be the same size.
The Act ONLY states the Maximum dia. of shot, above which an FAC is required and the Minimum qty. of shot, below which an FAC is required.
Until I noticed their sneakily having removed them from the ammo tables last month, I am(was) allowed to own S1 ammo in 20-bore & 10-bore.
My permission for 12-bore S1 ammunition seems to have been left alone; just as well, as it has been on my FAC for close to 2 decades..!
When I pick up my next .410 I may have that S1 ammo slot added as well.

My Firearms Licensing Officer is about the only member of Durham Firearms Dept. who has not been named in legal action by myself last week.
I use the wording of the Firearms Acts as a way to ensure correct legal compliance with firearms laws - Durham make their own rules up as they go, to suit themselves.
Too many folk in that role think they are there to invent new laws, not purely act as the administration branch to carry out the issue and renewal of certificates as stipulated by Parliamentary rulings & guidance 
I have had some FEO's in the past who I am still in contact with and I class them as good friends; some of them were at the time also working for departments who had varied interpretations of the Acts, etc.; not all FLO/FEO's are equal....!

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Downforce, with respect, you are totally barking up the wrong tree by trying No.4 shot from a .410 and wrong in thinking you need to use even larger shot. You need to use absolutely nothing larger than No. 6 from a 3 inch .410 and preferably No. 7 for maximum effective pattern. I have two .410 guns, both only 2 1/2 inch chambers shooting a maximum of 1/2 ounce, 14 gram, of shot and experience has taught me to buy nothing larger than No. 7 shot. With that you will kill squirrels comfortably at over 25 yards or 30-35 with a 3 inch load.

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1 hour ago, saddler said:

WRONG. On both counts!

As per the cut & paste definition above this reply, it is EXACTLY what I was suggesting - the law does not state that all the shot in a S2 cartridge MUST be the same size.
The Act ONLY states the Maximum dia. of shot, above which an FAC is required and the Minimum qty. of shot, below which an FAC is required.
Until I noticed their sneakily having removed them from the ammo tables last month, I am(was) allowed to own S1 ammo in 20-bore & 10-bore.
My permission for 12-bore S1 ammunition seems to have been left alone; just as well, as it has been on my FAC for close to 2 decades..!
When I pick up my next .410 I may have that S1 ammo slot added as well.

My Firearms Licensing Officer is about the only member of Durham Firearms Dept. who has not been named in legal action by myself last week.
I use the wording of the Firearms Acts as a way to ensure correct legal compliance with firearms laws - Durham make their own rules up as they go, to suit themselves.
Too many folk in that role think they are there to invent new laws, not purely act as the administration branch to carry out the issue and renewal of certificates as stipulated by Parliamentary rulings & guidance 
I have had some FEO's in the past who I am still in contact with and I class them as good friends; some of them were at the time also working for departments who had varied interpretations of the Acts, etc.; not all FLO/FEO's are equal....!


Happy to be wrong, every day is a school day, interesting that for the .410 you can create a virtual slug load with a single .36inch ball and four tiny 1.8mm other balls and it is still section 2 cartridge, then so be it.


 

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3 hours ago, London Best said:

Downforce, with respect, you are totally barking up the wrong tree by trying No.4 shot from a .410 and wrong in thinking you need to use even larger shot. You need to use absolutely nothing larger than No. 6 from a 3 inch .410 and preferably No. 7 for maximum effective pattern. I have two .410 guns, both only 2 1/2 inch chambers shooting a maximum of 1/2 ounce, 14 gram, of shot and experience has taught me to buy nothing larger than No. 7 shot. With that you will kill squirrels comfortably at over 25 yards or 30-35 with a 3 inch load.

I shoot 410 almost exclusively unless a shoot asks that small bores are not used.  I reload all my own cartridges other than this year I have purchased two slabs of shells just to support the trade after the devastating 2020 fiasco.  I load #7s and use SP3 almost to the Fokestone recipe  18.7g of #7s and do not find myself struggling with any birds under 40yds if I do my bit and put them in the pattern, partridge or pheasant.  Have been shooting 410 exclusively avg 20 plus days a season.  I use SP3 powder and as said #7 shot and shoot full choke both barrels and then it is up to me to centre the target.   Recently purchased a nice old side by hanner 410 and itching to see how that performs. Unlike London Best mine is chambered and proofed for 3 inch shells.    Stick with #6s and put the squirrel in the pattern at 25-30yrds and the job should be done.  They are tough little beasties..

Edited by Walker570
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4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:


Happy to be wrong, every day is a school day, interesting that for the .410 you can create a virtual slug load with a single .36inch ball and four tiny 1.8mm other balls and it is still section 2 cartridge, then so be it.


 

To be honest I wasnt looking for anyone to be right or wrong and just talking about these things often takes people down alleyways - anyways - I genuinely appreciate the intent which was to not get myself a criminal convition for doing something stupid or even just niaive. So RB2 thanks for pointing something out but I tend to agree somewhat with SADDLER - there's the law and then theres what people think is a good idea how the law should be - I always stay on the right side of the law but do sometimes get confused why people - especially those in a position of authority - make it up, so I try and check the actual legislation documents and where I'm not sure discuss it with knowledgeable opinions. After all if someone decides I'm wrong it wont be the FEO/FLO in the dock, so I try to have a full understanding.

5 hours ago, London Best said:

Downforce, with respect, you are totally barking up the wrong tree by trying No.4 shot from a .410 and wrong in thinking you need to use even larger shot. You need to use absolutely nothing larger than No. 6 from a 3 inch .410 and preferably No. 7 for maximum effective pattern. I have two .410 guns, both only 2 1/2 inch chambers shooting a maximum of 1/2 ounce, 14 gram, of shot and experience has taught me to buy nothing larger than No. 7 shot. With that you will kill squirrels comfortably at over 25 yards or 30-35 with a 3 inch load.

Thanks - thats very interesting - am I using something lame (FIOCCHI 2 1/2 (sorry I think i said 2.75 before))?

As I mentioned elsewhere I did have a few misfeeds in the Mossberg with 3" but I also seemed to hit more (edit - clays)  with them.

I should have also added I did a lot of looking around at what commercially available ammunition was out there and distance/velocity tables and tried to understand the important bits (like pattern and energy) before I asked the question.

Edited by Downforce
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1 hour ago, Dasher said:

What ever you do please promise to post up some pictures of the patterns that these shell produce at 25yards with a 3" circle drawn in the middle of it. 

Dasher "promise" is a strong word 🙂

I'll do my best to remember to put anything meaningful that I discover - including patterns up here

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2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I shoot 410 almost exclusively unless a shoot asks that small bores are not used.  I reload all my own cartridges other than this year I have purchased two slabs of shells just to support the trade after the devastating 2020 fiasco.  I load #7s and use SP3 almost to the Fokestone recipe  18.7g of #7s and do not find myself struggling with any birds under 40yds if I do my bit and put them in the pattern, partridge or pheasant.  Have been shooting 410 exclusively avg 20 plus days a season.  I use SP3 powder and as said #7 shot and shoot full choke both barrels and then it is up to me to centre the target.   Recently purchased a nice old side by hanner 410 and itching to see how that performs. Unlike London Best mine is chambered and proofed for 3 inch shells.    Stick with #6s and put the squirrel in the pattern at 25-30yrds and the job should be done.  They are tough little beasties..

Thanks - this is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for but was hoping that my idea was a good one I might still look to try the Wincheter buck if I can find any !

I cant seem to buy SP3 or Lil Gun locally at the moment for some reason, is there a shortage - I'm sure I'll find some soon.

I did just buy an old single hammer 410 as well as the Mossberg both of which are 3" proofed but the barrel wall on that is mega thick, it seems SxS 410s are going for good money as are over and unders

EDIT - Do you always use the same make/model wads and hulls and primers to keep your home loads 100% consistent ?

Edited by Downforce
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I cannot comment on the Fiocchi shells as I have no experience of them.  
But I can say that Lyalvale Express have always worked better for me than Eley Fourlong, although Eley Trap 7 1/2’s are particularly good.

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5 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:


Happy to be wrong, every day is a school day, interesting that for the .410 you can create a virtual slug load with a single .36inch ball and four tiny 1.8mm other balls and it is still section 2 cartridge, then so be it.


 

Yeah but remember the only reason it could be considered that way is because the cartridge is tiny in the first place, its the same priciple as putting 12 000 BBs in a 12G but theres just not so much space - The winchester 410 5 shot 000 buck is no different to a 12G 000 Buck the complication is that in 410 you need a 3" to get 5x 000 Buck in the cartridge. If I could feed 3" reliably and buy the Winchester I would have just bought it and tried it. It's not a case of only wanting to put one shot - I dont even see the point of that you can buy slugs in 410 so if you have S1 just do that - if you dont well theres another alleyway to rather not go down as to why you'd want it! As others suggest it seems 410s work well with 6-7 size bird shot.

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25 minutes ago, London Best said:

I cannot comment on the Fiocchi shells as I have no experience of them.  
But I can say that Lyalvale Express have always worked better for me than Eley Fourlong, although Eley Trap 7 1/2’s are particularly good.

Also Interesting - I saw a YT vid on Gamebore heavys showing a very good pattern but I have only found Fiocchis from online and my normal suppliers which is what started this whole thought process. I didnt even know Lyalvale Express had a 410, so this is all good stuff. I should add I am fundamentally lazy and whilst I am intregued by creating interesting loads to do something particular and solve a problem if I can buy them why would I bother!

Edited by Downforce
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I use Fiocchi 3 inch shells exclusively as I have found that other makes tend to swell even after re sizing and cause occasional fired shells to stick in the chamber. Never ever had one Fiocchi fail.  Yes, SP3 is not easy to obtain and I normally look at what I have in stock and order well before I run out.  I did also load some with H110 and they also performed well on the pattern plate but the SP3 being a ball powder is easy to pour in those small case mouths. I individually weight every charge and only use my Mec 600 for resize/decap/re prime, inserting wad and over powder card , pre crimp and finish.  Shot and powder are measure individualy as my belief is the small size of the 410 needs everyhting to be carefully measured to keep pressures under control as pressure variation can cause pattern variation.   The pattern through full chokes out of my Yilditz 30 inch barrels at 35yrds is a full 30 inch circle with very few fliers.  IF I was loading 2 1/2s then I agree with London Best #7s would be a better choice and at 25yrds from a full choke barrel even #9s is going to be deadly.

Hope this helps....  by the way I also shoot a Mossy 410 pumper fully moderated and my reloads appear to do a similar quality job on pigeons and crows out to 35 -40yrds.

As with any size shot always be aware of backstop and of course large pellets or slugs you need to be even more aware as to where things are going to land.  Stay safe..think Safe.

Edited by Walker570
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On 07/04/2021 at 21:05, Walker570 said:

I use Fiocchi 3 inch shells exclusively as I have found that other makes tend to swell even after re sizing and cause occasional fired shells to stick in the chamber. Never ever had one Fiocchi fail.  Yes, SP3 is not easy to obtain and I normally look at what I have in stock and order well before I run out.  I did also load some with H110 and they also performed well on the pattern plate but the SP3 being a ball powder is easy to pour in those small case mouths. I individually weight every charge and only use my Mec 600 for resize/decap/re prime, inserting wad and over powder card , pre crimp and finish.  Shot and powder are measure individualy as my belief is the small size of the 410 needs everyhting to be carefully measured to keep pressures under control as pressure variation can cause pattern variation.   The pattern through full chokes out of my Yilditz 30 inch barrels at 35yrds is a full 30 inch circle with very few fliers.  IF I was loading 2 1/2s then I agree with London Best #7s would be a better choice and at 25yrds from a full choke barrel even #9s is going to be deadly.

Hope this helps....  by the way I also shoot a Mossy 410 pumper fully moderated and my reloads appear to do a similar quality job on pigeons and crows out to 35 -40yrds.

As with any size shot always be aware of backstop and of course large pellets or slugs you need to be even more aware as to where things are going to land.  Stay safe..think Safe.

Walker570

Do you ever have mis-feeds with new 3" shells - mine is fine with 2 1/2 but intermittantly fumbles 3" - possibly technique but I went straight from a 410 to a Mossberg 12G (and had no issues with that) due to frustrations with the mis-feeds although it wasnt bad it was just enough to be annoying and the odd live round would flip coming out of the magazine and fall on the floor - I said before maybe 1 in 3 but it was probably more like 1 in 8-10 on reflection.

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4 hours ago, Downforce said:

Walker570

Do you ever have mis-feeds with new 3" shells - mine is fine with 2 1/2 but intermittantly fumbles 3" - possibly technique but I went straight from a 410 to a Mossberg 12G (and had no issues with that) due to frustrations with the mis-feeds although it wasnt bad it was just enough to be annoying and the odd live round would flip coming out of the magazine and fall on the floor - I said before maybe 1 in 3 but it was probably more like 1 in 8-10 on reflection.

Never had a problem both with my reloads and factory. Having done a lot of shooting with pumpers both for fun and serious stuff(410 and 12 gauge), technique is certainly a major point.

As said I did find reloaded red cases, Hull in particular did stick occasionally in my Yildiz. Pity because Hull High Pheasant are one of the best 410 game cartridges made in my view. I did try a few new Lylevale 3 inch last season and they worked very well. I have a slab ordered for this upcoming season or some summer pigeon/crows.

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On 01/12/2011 at 11:07, snarepeg said:

Iam loading 10 grains of BLUE DOT, 209 primer, and have straitened skeet with this combo, plus you get 700 cartridges out of a pound of powder. john

ive used this recomended by snarepeg,it does the job very well.

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