FAC conditions Metropolitan Police - Accompanied for rimfire

[pob]

Good afternoon all. I am wondering if anyone has specific experience with the Met Police that might assist me in resolving an issue with my FAC.

 

I have already spoken to BASC firearms team who seemed completely exasperated with the Met, and told me that, basically, I am screwed. Their advice is to send the FAC back and ask for the "error'" to be corrected. They also advise not to hold my breath.

 

The specific condition states (This is an exact reproduction):

The .22, .17hmr Rifles(s) & Sound Moderator(s) and Ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area were the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. Whilst Accompanied by an experienced shooter with an FAC conditioned for the type of shooting being conducted.

 

I have a similar condition on the 6.5X55, which I am happy to accept. I've only shot 15 deer and I'll continue to take paid for accompanied stalking for some time to come. I discussed this with the FEO. It is not limiting and the condition was not a surprise.

 

This accompanied condition on rimfire though is something else. It basically stops me taking up any of my permissions to shoot vermin. If I knew someone suitable, who might inexplicably want to come with me to bag a couple of rabbits, the landowners wouldn't like it. The actual sentence seems like an added afterthought; it doesn't even make sense. However, it's clear what the police intend and not worth risking a breach.

 

I am an experienced shooter and I showed the FEO service records to prove it. It's a real shame because I was otherwise very happy with the service from the Met, to my surprise frankly.

 

What is my best line of argument to get the condition removed? Anyone in the Met area with specific experience or knowledge?

[Scully]

Find an organisation which is prepared to challenge the condition.Seriously,doubt exists that the application of conditions for mentoring is actually legal,so if you can afford it,then challenge it,or find an organisation which is willing to do so.The SRA have a good record of challenging licensing authorities.

[Livefast123]

As said I would return the certificate asking them to remedy the error and if they refuse ask for a explanation in writing as to why they are requiring you to have a mentor for rimfire when you have experience of centrefire and it is seriously affecting your ability to control vermin on your permissions. It sounds like you have shot a few deer so would have an inkling of what you are doing with backstops etc so it just sounds like they are being extremely difficult. Some FEO's don't seem to count military service for some reason.

 

Are you a member of BASC, I would have thought that they would be jumping over haybales to challenge the legality of a rediculous condition like this........mentoring on rimfire with a fairly experienced shooter....doesn't suit me sir!

Edited August 12, 2012 by Livefast123

[Muddy Funker]

That looks like a ballache to be fair,,,

 

Any chance you could just stick it out for 6 months then request it be removed?

[silverhawk]

Met are doing this alot now.I know 3 people with met thats had the same conditions.

[Alanl50]

There must be a PW member who can assist this chap by accompanying him, the OP only needs mentoring, mentor does not need to take a Firearm with him.(only need the condition on his FAC)

Im sure we can work this out

Alan

Edited August 12, 2012 by Alanl50

[Scully]

In the face of a lack of a legal requirement for formal firearms training being a stipulation of granting a FAC,police authorities,by applying mentoring conditions,are in effect passing the buck.Unless your mentor has some formal and recognised training in firearms,who is going to stand up and say 'this person is qualified to mentor this person'?Certainly not your licensing authority.

If in fact the condition is illegal(and no licensing authority will in fact discuss the legality of the condition)then what is to stop you carrying on without a mentor,and then after six months (or whatever)your CF mentor informs the authorities that you are now safe to shoot unmentored?I'm not advocating you do this,but it simply shows the condition up for the load of ******** it is.

BASC wont challenge mentoring;I've already tried.Find some party which will.

I believe Home Office guidance re' firearms is under review,so who knows what conditions we may (legally or otherwise)be subject to.

[kent]

thats pretty hard on you or any shooter regards rimfire, there are no guidence note on this but they are allowed to make this stuff up as they go allong if they wish. Shurely someone can help out off here and hold his hand for a few visits?

[CharlieT]

Have you actually spoken to your licensing manager. It is not unknown for errors to occur.

[magman]

Good afternoon all. I am wondering if anyone has specific experience with the Met Police that might assist me in resolving an issue with my FAC.

 

I have already spoken to BASC firearms team who seemed completely exasperated with the Met, and told me that, basically, I am screwed. Their advice is to send the FAC back and ask for the "error'" to be corrected. They also advise not to hold my breath.

 

The specific condition states (This is an exact reproduction):

The .22, .17hmr Rifles(s) & Sound Moderator(s) and Ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area were the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. Whilst Accompanied by an experienced shooter with an FAC conditioned for the type of shooting being conducted.

 

I have a similar condition on the 6.5X55, which I am happy to accept. I've only shot 15 deer and I'll continue to take paid for accompanied stalking for some time to come. I discussed this with the FEO. It is not limiting and the condition was not a surprise.

 

This accompanied condition on rimfire though is something else. It basically stops me taking up any of my permissions to shoot vermin. If I knew someone suitable, who might inexplicably want to come with me to bag a couple of rabbits, the landowners wouldn't like it. The actual sentence seems like an added afterthought; it doesn't even make sense. However, it's clear what the police intend and not worth risking a breach.

 

I am an experienced shooter and I showed the FEO service records to prove it. It's a real shame because I was otherwise very happy with the service from the Met, to my surprise frankly.

 

What is my best line of argument to get the condition removed? Anyone in the Met area with specific experience or knowledge?

 

 

Money well spent then been there done that and now switched insurer's

[sitsinhedges]

Why can't the chap who has taken you stalking write you a letter stating that he has mentored you for centrefire and get that restriction lifted. That way the Police would find it hard to justify a rimfire mentoring condition with it being a lesser calibre.

[Scully]

they are allowed to make this stuff up as they go allong if they wish.

Not sure if that's strictly true.I'll agree they do 'make up stuff' but whether they are allowed to do so in the eyes of the law is another matter.They get away with 'stuff' because they go unchallenged.

[Bazooka Joe]

Are you a member of BASC, I would have thought that they would be jumping over haybales to challenge the legality of a rediculous condition like this..

 

Don't hold your breath,..... I know two people who had similar circumstances who contacted BASC for assistance...

 

Yep, you've guessed it, they arn't members anymore, it's no wonder members have a pop at them now & then.

[pob]

Thanks for all your words of support and advice gents. Honestly appreciated.

I appreciate talk of offers of mentoring help from the forum, but the scraps of permission that are my own wouldn't be worth the diesel. It is too much to ask of somebody else.

Part of my FAC submission was a letter from my stalking mentor, but that covered centrefire only. I have held DSC1 for some time also, just to complete the picture.

BASC advice was to not approach the individual FEO again. That does make some sense to me.

I could just wear this for 6 months then put in for a variation to have the condition removed. BASC didn't think that was a goer. You can't put in a variation for conditions, only calibres, I think he said. I wasn't sure that I understood the point. However, I do seem to be out of options.

[Kes]

I dont want to be pedantic but the mentoring requirement starts, if its exactly the same, .Whilst blah blah. In English there is no object to this sentence and it is not related to the previous sentence, because a full stop separates them. It simply isnt understandable as it stands. I would ring your FEO and say the mentoring bit is meaningless as it stands - you presume its a mistake as its not English and to apply a retrospective mentoring condition is also illogical. It might simply be a mistake, a part sentence added in error here's hoping !!!!

[Livefast123]

The FEOs and FLM's that come up with this kind of garbage know how much a challenge through the courts would cost and is way out of reach of your average shooter so they constantly get away with it. What happens when they get away with it, they come up with something even more restrictive.

 

What we need is a national shooting association with balls, hence why my money didn't go to any of the main contenders.

[Kes]

The FEOs and FLM's that come up with this kind of garbage know how much a challenge through the courts would cost and is way out of reach of your average shooter so they constantly get away with it. What happens when they get away with it, they come up with something even more restrictive.

 

What we need is a national shooting association with balls, hence why my money didn't go to any of the main contenders.

 

The last bit I fully agree with - this condition is simply stupid and the Met doesnt have a good reputation of late for all sorts of things, therefore, a serious challenge supported by the millions of pounds we contribute would help everyone - not least the organisation that did it.

[bedwards1966]

Tough one. BASC do seem to be very disappointing at times, this is where they should be pushing very hard as rim-fire mentoring conditions are taking things too far.

 

I would send them your certificate, and a letter, explaining that as you have been on x number of stalks with your stalking guide, plus that as you have a DSC1, you are safe to shoot the center-fire without supervision, and obviously because you are competent with a center-fire the rim-fire restriction is most certainly not needed. Please remove both conditions from my certificate.

While you can't exactly put in a variation for changing the conditions on a certificate, you can ask them to be removed at any time, as with a letter as I've put above.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have thought that not having a mentor is breaching the terms of your certificate, and I can't think of anything in law that says the police can't add such conditions to a certificate.

 

I'd be looking for a new shooting organisation to represent you as well.

[Scully]

Tough one. BASC do seem to be very disappointing at times, this is where they should be pushing very hard as rim-fire mentoring conditions are taking things too far.

 

I would send them your certificate, and a letter, explaining that as you have been on x number of stalks with your stalking guide, plus that as you have a DSC1, you are safe to shoot the center-fire without supervision, and obviously because you are competent with a center-fire the rim-fire restriction is most certainly not needed. Please remove both conditions from my certificate.

While you can't exactly put in a variation for changing the conditions on a certificate, you can ask them to be removed at any time, as with a letter as I've put above.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd have thought that not having a mentor is breaching the terms of your certificate, and I can't think of anything in law that says the police can't add such conditions to a certificate.

 

I'd be looking for a new shooting organisation to represent you as well.

The above is well worth a try.

You could ask them why in view of the fact you have CF and DSC1, they have imposed such conditions on you.If you fail to get a satisfactory answer then tell them you will be seeking legal advice as there is a distinct lack of logic behind the condition.

[al4x]

also talking with them is well worth it, obviously ask the logic behind it and also what it takes to get it removed. The deer one after 15 deer and DSC1 is ridiculous that should be lifted at worst with a letter from someone you have been stalking to say you are safe. Then adding one for rimfires is beyond a joke but get the centerfire one lifted and then suggest a mentoring condition for rimfires isn't on.

[pob]

Sorry to bump such an old post, but I had my FAC returned from the Met yesterday. All mentoring conditions now removed for rimfire and centrefire. Result.

At first my letter and certificate, sent recorded delivery, vanished. I had trouble getting hold of the firearms team on the phone, but once I did, things moved quickly. My original FEO called me that day and I just underlined that, in my view, I had served a significant mentoring period before applying and I'd proved it. He said OK, I thought you'd said you'd accept mentoring and "it's easier to get through." He promised it back within 10 days and he was as good as his word.

 

Time to go shopping. Thanks again to all for their support.

 

I've reproduced my letter below in case it helps anyone in a similar situation.

 

Andrew *******

*****************

**********

LONDON

E12 ***

07*** *****

 

Metropolitan Police

CO19 –Specialist Firearms Command

FET London North

Empress State Building

6^th Floor

Lillie Road

London

SW6 1TR

 

 

 

16^th August 2012

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

I am writing to ask that you correct my Firearms Form 102, certificate number 02/A/******/2012, issued by yourselves on */*/2012.

 

I would like to request that the Additional conditions 5 and 6 on my certificate are changed to better reflect current Home Office guidance as stated in Appendix 3 Page 163 of Firearms Law, Guidance to the Police, 2002. This states:

 

1. Quarry Shooting (for vermin, fox

or deer)

The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/

SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND

MODERATOR and ammunition shall be

used for shooting vermin and ground

game/fox/deer (delete as appropriate) and

for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed

suitable by the chief officer of police for the area

where the land is situated and over which the

holder has lawful authority to shoot.

(The words in italics may be omitted once

the certificate holder has demonstrated

competence. There is no set time for this

and each case should be considered on its

individual merits.)

 

I do not feel that the conditions on my certificate are appropriate. The addition of an ‘accompanied’ condition on rimfire calibres is particularly limiting and will effectively curtail my planned vermin control activities. This was not discussed at interview and could be deemed constructive refusal.

 

I provided proof that I have held Deer Stalking Certificate 1 (DSC1) for some time, which demonstrates a suitable level of competence. I also provided a full history of my deer stalking activities, which again proved a suitable level of experience and competence. This was supported by a letter from a further referee describing my stalking history and aptitude. I also showed service records proving my extensive rimfire and centrefire use, again demonstrating suitable competence and experience.

 

I consider that I have provided overwhelming evidence that I am already an ‘experienced shooter.’ I am happy to provide further copies of this evidence for your records. I have also demonstrated that I have already received a significant period of mentoring in firearm use before applying for grant of FAC.

 

I am returning my certificate with this letter. I have signed this certificate, in accordance with the Firearms Act 1968; my signature is not proof of my agreement to these conditions, though I will of course act in complete accordance with them whilst this matter is settled.

 

I am happy to discuss these matters with you by telephone, but I will also require written communication from you on your decisions and reasons. I am sure that this matter can be clarified, corrected and settled to the satisfaction of all parties.

 

I would like you to make the requested amendments and send me a new certificate as soon as possible. I am seeking to acquire the permitted firearms in the very near future and am currently looking at some specific purchases.

 

Kind regards

 

 

 

 

Mr * * ******

[Scully]

Good for you pob;that's the way to do it.What part,if any,did your shooting organisation play in this?Or did you do this off your 'own bat'?

[Raja Clavata]

Just read this for first time today. Glad you got it sorted. Met NE FET seem to make it up as they go along. Fortunately not had any dealings with them for a year but do still need to send my FAC in to get a .308 ammo anomaly sorted out.

[pob]

Scully

 

I didn't find my shooting organisation as helpful as I would have hoped, but they did at least suggest referring to the home office guidance. They were pretty downbeat about my chances.

 

I let them know how it turned out and sent the appeal letter, but they have not responded. But who knows what swung the Met's thinking. In reality, FEOs can often do as they please and there is little consistency. I may well have just got lucky this time. My particular FEO struck me as a decent sort, despite the initial misunderstanding.

 

Raja

 

I'd be tempted to get your variation in as soon as possible. They seem a little busy and maybe they are seeking the path of least resistance. Nice avatar by the way.

[Vince Green]

The Met police firearms enquiry areas are all being merged into one office in Central London. I think a few of the older stalwarts saw it as a good opportunity to retire. There seems to be a few people working there now who are slightly less than competent. I heard about a week ago of somebody being asked "Whats Bisley?" True, I'm not making it up

 

I would suggest that a lot of the conditions are just cut and pasted from a standard file by somebody who doesn't really have much understanding beyond how to cut and paste.

 

Don't phone up, always write

Edited September 16, 2012 by Vince Green