secretagentmole Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) This is briefly. what happens when a gun is submitted for testing... The lab opens the accompanying file and sees what's required, these days there is a set routine of tests conducted such as outstanding ballistic matches and the like, the weapon is test fired through a crono around 5-10 times with different ammunition and the results recorded. There is no tampering however if the gun has a method of turning up the power as on some pcp rifles and is easily accessible and looks to have been tampered with then I would request it is tested with the power turned up in addition to the first round of tests. The lab completes the report that gets sent to the officer investigating who in turn decides if there are any offences and if so will pass the file to the cps for charge. Should u have an over the limit rifle and are charged then your defence solicitor will no doubt order those tests repeated by another lab of his choosing who invariably repeat the tests and from experience the results won't differ. If the gun is 0.5 of a ft lb over I can't see the public interest to charge but u would lose the gun as to return it would be an offence of supplying a sec1 firearm to someone without a licence. You could probably have it put on a licence if u already had one. I do not know of anyone being prosecuted for having an airgun over the limit unless it was well over the limit. The starting point at crown court for possessing a firearm without a licence is 5 years. The judge can award whatever sentence he likes after all he is the judge. There is no better way of seeing if the gun is capable then to actually fire it and diesleing etc are ruled out as anomalies. Normally police won't take and test the gun unless they have a good reason but that's not to say they can't seize it and test it if they decide its prudent. Can you request that the defence tests are carried out at a separate laboratory? Furthermore there is no standard list of tests, there is no standard list of ammunition, there is no specified testing procedure, equipment or calibration routine. Nothing is legislated, unlike other offenses (for example speeding, drunk driving) when the equipment has to conform to Home Office specified regulations... There is more smoke and mirrors in air rifle testing than there is in a cheap Vegas magicians act! Edited August 31, 2012 by secretagentmole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Can you request that the defence tests are carried out at a separate laboratory? Furthermore there is no standard list of tests, there is no standard list of ammunition, there is no specified testing procedure, equipment or calibration routine. Nothing is legislated, unlike other offenses (for example speeding, drunk driving) when the equipment has to conform to Home Office specified regulations... There is more smoke and mirrors in air rifle testing than there is in a cheap Vegas magicians act! Yes the defence will appoint there own forensic expert to examine the gun wether its an airgun or machine pistol or dna on knife blade or other bodily fluid or whatever. That's there job and they do it well. The results are the same after all if they differed the lab would be outcast and no longer used by the homeoffice as clearly they would be sub par. The equipment is pretty standard in that a cronograph is used and these have to be able to exactly measure the velocity of the projectile when fired from the muzzle. To do so it is checked and shown in working order and available for examination by the defences forensic firearm expert. The rest of the tests re ballistic reports etc are standardised and they are all laid down by the home office under their SOP's and have been for as long as I can remember. From memory I've never seen the smoke and mirrors paragraph on a firearms report. If the gun is over its over,if its under it under. If its not capable of fireing it will say so likewise the exact classification of weapon country of origin date of manafacture and ballistic ntelligence is there as well. No one is going to try and catch out an airgunner with a legit gun. No one is interested in that. What they will do is produce a scientific report that will hold water under any test given in court. Nothing else is good enough or worth having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) ....................... Edited September 1, 2012 by Dave-G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) re the five year bit you may be right however the sentenceing guidlines, and i stress they are guidlines can be found here http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a12 its a handy website not worth testing it in my mind. Edited September 1, 2012 by GingerCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr williamson Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Under what circumstances is this ever likely to happen though in reality? There must be hundreds of guns in this situation. lots of weihrauch springers will be. they love jumping over 12ftlbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Yes the defence will appoint there own forensic expert to examine the gun wether its an airgun or machine pistol or dna on knife blade or other bodily fluid or whatever. That's there job and they do it well. The results are the same after all if they differed the lab would be outcast and no longer used by the homeoffice as clearly they would be sub par. The equipment is pretty standard in that a cronograph is used and these have to be able to exactly measure the velocity of the projectile when fired from the muzzle. To do so it is checked and shown in working order and available for examination by the defences forensic firearm expert. The rest of the tests re ballistic reports etc are standardised and they are all laid down by the home office under their SOP's and have been for as long as I can remember. From memory I've never seen the smoke and mirrors paragraph on a firearms report. If the gun is over its over,if its under it under. If its not capable of fireing it will say so likewise the exact classification of weapon country of origin date of manafacture and ballistic ntelligence is there as well. No one is going to try and catch out an airgunner with a legit gun. No one is interested in that. What they will do is produce a scientific report that will hold water under any test given in court. Nothing else is good enough or worth having. It has been known inone case for the gun to be heavily modified by the testign laboratory, a spring was removed I believe, the judge directed the jury to find the defendant guilty, as the gun, not being found in that condition, still ahd the potential to be over 12 foot pounds. Likewise with an HW100, if that is run into the yellow recharge zone, the gun can give odd shots well over 12 foot pounds, so there is a gun, which can be standard at the top of the fill, which when run down, right down to the point where no sensible shooter will use it, will sometimes produce readings of over 12 foot pounds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) Probably best not to buy an HW100 then I guess. I'd be interested in the physics though, that allow a fully charged, regulated, air rifle to fire at legal limits right down to a point where one assumes there is less pressure than the regulator works to, but can then suddenly produce a higher pellet velocity with that much reduced pressure. Seems counter-intuitive to me. Edited September 1, 2012 by -Mongrel- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 It is a known flaw in the HW100! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeEvans8 Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Hello Guys, just to say I'm new to Airgunning, I have a .22 BSA Ultra Multishot Tactical Stock. Ive got a massive interested in Hunting but where I live(Winstanley near Wigan, Greater Manchester) I just can't find any land or get any permission... Any of you lot got any tips for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 Hello Guys, just to say I'm new to Airgunning, I have a .22 BSA Ultra Multishot Tactical Stock. Ive got a massive interested in Hunting but where I live(Winstanley near Wigan, Greater Manchester) I just can't find any land or get any permission... Any of you lot got any tips for me? Your best bet would be to introduce yourself in the 'Welcome to Pigeonwatch' section of the forum, and then to post in the 'Shooting wanted' section and see if anyone comes along. Don't get your hopes up though, there are many people out there wanting shooting, and not many places to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted September 2, 2012 Report Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) It is a known flaw in the HW100! Probably best not to buy one then then I guess! Not that I've heard of it, nor does a quick Google throw much up. So anyway, please do link anything conclusive, I would be interested as I have one on my virtual shopping list. Edited September 2, 2012 by -Mongrel- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 What's the point of that, it has to be under the limit with any pellet to be legal. I don't think you quite grasp physics mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Lets assume for a moment that for some very innocent reason the police did end up checking your gun and found it to be a bit over. Chances are they wouldn’t prosecute. They would have to keep the gun from you though. No doubt the FEO would be involved at some point. In such situations I think it would just make sense to chat to the FEO and see about getting a licence and getting the now restricted gun on that licence so you can take it out the stores. I see no reason why a law abiding decent person can’t get a licence for an air rifle Alternatively, I’m sure the local FEO will know some people at a local gunshop and might be able to help you find a way to part-ex the illegal gun against a legal one without any major out of pocket expenses. I guess it depends on the local FEO. If you were being a little sod with the air rifle though, and they took it for testing because you were ‘allegedly’ shooting the neighbours gnomes or taking pot shots at songbirds then they might decide to not be helpful regardless of the outcome of the case. If there’s a lack of evidence on the other charges they might even try and get you on the powerful airgun charge too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washerboy Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 i used a well known airgun shop on the way to barnsley, bought several guns from there and each one was doing "just over 12 mate", i had a hw80 chronoed there and it was doing 11 ftlbs and was asked did i want it tuning up a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) I don't think you quite grasp physics mate. But that is the law, it has to be under with any pellet! Any, absoulutely any, so if they decide to use DU (depeleted uranium, the densest metal used in ammunition manufacture), they damned well can if they like! Edited September 4, 2012 by secretagentmole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabs Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 But that is the law, it has to be under with any pellet! Any, absoulutely any, so if they decide to use DU (depeleted uranium, the densest metal used in ammunition manufacture), they damned well can if they like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) But that is the law, it has to be under with any pellet! Any, absoulutely any, so if they decide to use DU (depeleted uranium, the densest metal used in ammunition manufacture), they damned well can if they like! You go and live in fear of the DU police then. You need to seriously consider what you're saying when you say 'any'. This is physics were talking here. Edited September 5, 2012 by Billy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Why are numpty's still trying to argue the point about physic's or whatever ? RIGHT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE STUPID : SUB 12FTLB=LEGAL ! (Are you still paying attention) OVER 12FTLB=ILLEGAL ! (subject to FAC) Regardless of any quantum physic's newtons law Einstien's theory of relativity or any other ******** you care to mention, Just man up and addmit your WRONG ! Of course you can argue till your blue in the face but the fact remain's YOU ARE WRONG ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabs Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Jesus, some of you lot are really thick. What 'mole is saying is when the plod take your rifle in, they can use ANY projectile to test with. ie- if your rifle is legal with a 14gr pellet, they can test it with any other projectile that fits in your barrel. If this then takes it over legal, you're in trouble. Holy carp, does that not make any sense to some of you? THE POLICE CAN PUT ANY PROJECTILE IN YOUR BARREL. IF IT THEN TAKES IT OVER LEGAL YOU ARE DONE. A pcp will typically give you higher ftlb with a heavier projectile. That's because a heavier projectile creates more back pressure, thus leaving the valve open a little longer, thus emitting more air, thus increasing output pressure/volume, thus potentially giving more ftlb. Lumpy, your view is not only over simplistic, it shows you have very little knowledge or experience with basic ballistics and air rifle physics. That goes for the rest of you numptys.... Blimey...... Edited September 5, 2012 by pabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Jesus, some of you lot are really thick. What 'mole is saying is when the plod take your rifle in, they can use ANY projectile to test with. ie- if your rifle is legal with a 14gr pellet, they can test it with any other projectile that fits in your barrel. If this then takes it over legal, you're in trouble. Holy carp, does that not make any sense to some of you? THE POLICE CAN PUT ANY PROJECTILE IN YOUR BARREL. IF IT THEN TAKES IT OVER LEGAL YOU ARE DONE. A pcp will typically give you higher ftlb with a heavier projectile. That's because a heavier projectile creates more back pressure, thus leaving the valve open a little longer, thus emitting more air, thus increasing output pressure/volume, thus potentially giving more ftlb. Lumpy, your view is not only over simplistic, it shows you have very little knowledge or experience with basic ballistics and air rifle physics. That goes for the rest of you numptys.... Blimey...... That's true but in my experience it's pellet size that has more of an effect that weight. I used to use Bis Mags (4.50) but they produced less muzzle energy than AA fields (4.52). Either way the police WILL have a range of pellets available which is why you shouldn't tune your rifle to anything too near 12 ft/lbs. As an aside, I tested around 20 different pellets/sizes and the energy varied from 7.5 to 11.8 ft/lbs - that's quite a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabs Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Yes, very good point, pellet size does indeed make a difference too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) Mole is absolutely right here, I looked into this in some detail after AMTA ( Airgun manufacturers Trade Association ) introduced anti-tamper. The testing labs can use any pellet they like ( which is why AMTA kicked up such a fuss when Pax Guns marketed the extra-heavy Piledriver pellet in the UK ). Anti-tamper protects the airgun manufacturer, it offers little protection to the end user - even if the anti-tamper is intact you will get nicked for an over powered airgun. The only up-side is that it makes it a little more difficult for the testing lab to turn the power up. Sadly, the testing labs have also been known to modify rifles to put them over-power. They make no secret of this, because they don't have to - it's allowed. Usually someone will respond to this fact with "if you haven't done anything else wrong you've got nothing to worry about...." That's a stupid argument and completely contrary to our understanding of fair law, ie. you get convicted of what you're guilty of, not what you can be fitted for. Take an example, a man is plinking in his garden and a pellet leaves his property and breaks a window. He's daft and careless, and deserves a rollocking, to pay for the damage, and maybe even have his rifle confiscated. What he doesn't deserve is spell in prison for an un-licenced firearm. The testing process is out of our control, all we can do is check and double check our own shooting practices and keep our rifles around 11ft/lbs . Edited September 6, 2012 by Catweazle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 (edited) What people fail to realise is that the Forensic Science Service Laboratories no longer exist, it is all done by private companies, who may well have negotiated a contract that includes a bonus for successful prosecutions, because your gun can be sent over by using a heavier and correctly sized pellet, don't you think they will? If they can get it over by a little bit of tinkering is the temptation not there? That is why I carry a chrono on me, so I can prove to any police officer that my gun is legal at time of inspection (Combros don't ya just love 'em?)! If you can prove it is legal, they have less reason to take it! Edited September 6, 2012 by secretagentmole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 What people fail to realise is that the Forensic Science Service Laboratories no longer exist, it is all done by private companies, who may well have negotiated a contract that includes a bonus for successful prosecutions, because your gun can be sent over by using a heavier and correctly sized pellet, don't you think they will? If they can get it over by a little bit of tinkering is the temptation not there? That is why I carry a chrono on me, so I can prove to any police officer that my gun is legal at time of inspection (Combros don't ya just love 'em?)! If you can prove it is legal, they have less reason to take it! Having a chrono on you will prove nothing. Will you also have a set of scales to weigh a selection of pellets and an idiots guide to ballistics for the officer to thumb thru until he understands the whole concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Well I use a pellet which has the average pellet weight on the label and I could offer him a selection to take to the permission holders kitchen to test, he counts 100 pellets out, weighs them, comes out with the fact my pellets weigh what they should (he can check calibration with a known weight, such as a bag of sugar), no problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.