denniswebb Posted September 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I am afraid its that attiude bluderbluss that wil see the demise of our sport, the one big thing i learnt going on the Countryside march is that united we take take on any body or authority in this sport. The actions of the police in recent years show that give them half a yard and this sport will almost end . For us to think that we will never be picked off is naive, that is what the pistol shooters thought , it could never happen to me > The experience that i encounterd first hand has taught me that we have no rights as far as the police are concerned . Where ever i travel i never carry a gun in a gun slip but a case, i never look like a shooter, you go to France and its completly different, they embrace shooting its part of the country scene, but not in most areas of the UK....It is only by being part of a national organisation that we protect our sport, i just cannot understand the logic, if you can afford to shoot you certainly afford £25.00 a year membership. Shotguns are the most leathal weapon imaginable at under 15 yards, that is why they where so popular in the war, why shouldn't new shooters learn properly how to handle and be safe, i just don't understand some of logic on here......We are not free spirits any more...its just a memory. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 i just don't understand some of logic on here...... Fine, but what you must realise is that pretty much all of us don't understand most of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) i just don't understand some of logic on here......We are not free spirits any more...its just a memory. Logic??? So you want to counter heavy handed policing of shooters by forcing MORE controls on us? And you think compulsory competence tests, insurance and membership of organisations will turn us into 'free spirits'? Some very muddled thinking there Dennis. I was going to try and pick the bones out of the rest of your post, but its so incoherent I wouldn't know where to start :( Edited September 14, 2012 by Blunderbuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Shotguns are the most leathal weapon imaginable at under 15 yards, that is why they where so popular in the war, Dennis Which war? I cant think of a single war where large amounts, or even significant amounts of combatants were are armed with shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Shooting is already regulated beyond belief and far more here than anywhere else on the planet, I don't think we need even more expense and hoops to jump through to put off potential new shooters. Regulated? I take it that you've never shot in Europe - Germany or France for example. Funny old world! At one time if things didn't cost a few bob or require a bit of effort it was considered that they probably weren't worth having. Now, unless they're free and offered on a plate, no one wants them. Still, I think that they call that progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Which war? I cant think of a single war where large amounts, or even significant amounts of combatants were are armed with shotguns. Off topic I know,but many shotguns(Winchester 1897 'Trench Gun')were issued to US forces in WW1 and again in Vietnam....Winchester Model12/Ithaca,amongst others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Which war? I cant think of a single war where large amounts, or even significant amounts of combatants were are armed with shotguns. WW11 Dads' Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzurri Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Dennis, having read through the comments on here I have come to the following conclusions : 1. There's more chance of a Penguin opening a Banana than your petition going through :lol: 2. The ever increasing costs of cartridges will do more to rid the streets of legally held shotguns than any future legislation Azzurri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yickdaz Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 My money's on Hospital or deadno to signing i,m a basc member fully insured and competent don,t need or want a test, would take one if need be no problem but not by choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Regulated? I take it that you've never shot in Europe - Germany or France for example. Yes I spent a few years living in Germany in the 80s and 90s and got my Jagdshein. Not shot in France but I have a mate who lives there and bar military calibres, the laws are very relaxed. Edited September 14, 2012 by Blunderbuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted September 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Ain't you ever seen the film platoon, its the prefered weapon in jungle warfare. They tried to ban them as they designed to maim rather than kill. I have shot all over Europe , the only country i really drive around is Switzeland . I never declare guns through border posts its far too much hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes I spent a few years living in Germany in the 80s and 90s and got my Jagdshein. Not shot in France but I have a mate who lives there and bar military calibres, the laws are very relaxed. Good oh! Then you already know that in Germany (France also) and many other countries - the following example is Germany - that in addition to the Waffenbesitzkarte (SGC & FAC all in one) you also need a Jagdschein (hunting licence) (1970s me), which are only issued after extensive examinations - the British Forces Germany had no problem getting these Auslander versions due to the fact that Germany was showing her appreciation that after the war the British occupied sector was first to permit hunting and allow possession of sporting guns - so whereas, yep, aquiring our cert's is a bit of an effort we do not have all the regulatory nausea with the competence assessment. I'd quite like to keep it that way. If it takes a little voluntary effort on our part to do so, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Ain't you ever seen the film platoon, its the prefered weapon in jungle warfare. They tried to ban them as they designed to maim rather than kill. I have shot all over Europe , the only country i really drive around is Switzeland . I never declare guns through border posts its far too much hassle. Shotguns are designed to maim rather than kill. I wouldn't like to get hit with a slug out of one. Edited September 14, 2012 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr williamson Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 at the end of the day we all nead to stick together to be heard and prove that we are trust worthy and safe. the non shooting comunity is never going to accept us because of whats happened in recent years, and unfortunately we cant change that. people will always remember the bad before the good, so if exams will help us gain some trust im for it!! anything to get the door open again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 The Pistol ban was a direct result of what happened at Dunblane, It was this failure of communications between the local gun club and the police that had tragic results. If there had been better links this tragic outcame may have just been avoided......Legislation may not have changed since Cumbria but the police procedure has. Dennis To be polite, this is all nonsense. The Dunblane tragedy was able to happen due to police incompetence, nothing else. The 'changes' after Cumbria are to what they should have been before the police messed up that time. I don't think you could ever omit the police from some form of process in the administration of gun licences, they tend to use retired officers who may have an interest in shooting. Perhaps there should have been a wider consulation before drawing this up, but i am not sure who. There is a long way to go on this, it may be that some of the aims get taken on board, reading some of these posts i don't think it will be well supported by shooters, but it may get better support from the general public. I think everyone really agrees that we need a form of provisional training and certification before letting someone loose with a firearm. I think we all want to see a wider consulation to involve our national bodies in the Licencing process. Where this all falls flat on its face is compulsary membership to one of the national shooting organisation, its really about money, go out and spend a small fortune on a gun and cartridges, but £30.00 on membership is the end of the road. Its as simple as that. What impressed me going on the Countryside March is the camaradie between sportsman and women, why is it we don't get that same feeling in shooting, in the end it will finish this sport, fragmentation will be our downfall. Dennis That probably says it all. At the time of me writing this, there have been over 2200 views on this topic - yet only 2 signatures. If such a tiny percentage of shooters think this is helpful to our sports, that should set off some alarm bells. Do you really think that something which you think the general public may support, but that shooters do not, is in any way going to help us? Dennis, in some areas I can see where you are coming from, and I can see that you may have good intentions. But, some of what you've asked for is not going to happen, the way you've asked for it is badly worded, and some of it probably shouldn't happen. Shooting will fall without enough new members. It's already hard enough to get into shooting (especially to get a FAC, what with needing permission first and mentoring conditions), and to many it's already seen as too much trouble. Add in a requirement for a test and no matter how cheap or easy it is, it's yet another hurdle for people to overcome. I really don't see that we can afford to lose new shooters, over a problem which isn't actually that large. While shooting accidents do happen, thankfully they are rare, and the injuries are normally never really publicized as they usually only affect the shooter or a companion. One small idea for the future - when trying something like this petition, why not run it past the PW members first? That way, you can get thousands of eyes to look for flaws and suggest improvements. You might then be able to draw up something that everyone can support, which stands a chance (albeit a small one) of doing something helpful to the sport? I don't accept that the Police are against shooters either. I have never found that in well over 30 years of clay shooting. As for Hillsborough - not the finest hour for South Yorkshire Police, but it was 23 years ago. It shows what a few Police personnel were like then, not now and will not further your cause by one iota. So, in what ways do you think they have changed since this particular incident. And why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 RE shotguns in war again. (Sorry, it is rather off topic.) I read it as they were issued as a majority weapon, I know for a fact this was never the case. In certain situations, jungle engagements, trenches etc they were issued to a fair few, but they were never a mainstay gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 2342 people have veiwed this thread and 2 have signed dosn't that say something ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 So, in what ways do you think they have changed since this particular incident. And why? The optimistic side of me hopes there aren't 116 Policemen / women (out of 164) today who would sign a statement which had been massaged by someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 2342 people have veiwed this thread and 2 have signed dosn't that say something ? It says to me that 2342 people can read, but only 2340 can write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 If people just played the game and adhered to the laws rules set out, we would be left alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted September 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 I did try to take the petition off and rephrase but it cannot be done, i cannot see a problem with new shooters to this sport taking some form of test. In most areas today everyone takes a test for the simplist of tasks in my industry, almost every application in it requires some form of test certification. I have just sent off one guy to take a course on how to erectt a tower scaffold, even though he has been putting them up for over 30 years, the only reason shooting has had an exemption is because its seen as a recreational activity, but that doesn't exclude syndicates, farmers, ground owners BASC & any other organisation, how long do you guys really think you can get away with free shooting without the shackles that every one else has to comply with, insurance, method statements, notification and competance test will be the norm.....How long do you really think you can just sit in a hide and shoot pigeons without doing a method statment on direction of shot , public footpaths, water course, potential crop damage. This will be a condition on anyone shooting on land they don't own, because a farmer just cannot afford to be sued for some wally cocking up......These are adjustments we will have to make to continue enjoying our sport, its no big deal, but lets be prepared, lets be seen as a responsible section of the public, not something to be feared and untrustworthy. We need to be part of the establishment and work with to ensure the future of this sport. We all need to belong to our national shooting bodies. Dennis Grimstorpe was great today, almost magical. roll on tommorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) I did try to take the petition off and rephrase but it cannot be done, i cannot see a problem with new shooters to this sport taking some form of test. In most areas today everyone takes a test for the simplist of tasks in my industry, almost every application in it requires some form of test certification. I have just sent off one guy to take a course on how to erectt a tower scaffold, even though he has been putting them up for over 30 years, the only reason shooting has had an exemption is because its seen as a recreational activity, but that doesn't exclude syndicates, farmers, ground owners BASC & any other organisation, how long do you guys really think you can get away with free shooting without the shackles that every one else has to comply with, insurance, method statements, notification and competance test will be the norm.....How long do you really think you can just sit in a hide and shoot pigeons without doing a method statment on direction of shot , public footpaths, water course, potential crop damage. This will be a condition on anyone shooting on land they don't own, because a farmer just cannot afford to be sued for some wally cocking up......These are adjustments we will have to make to continue enjoying our sport, its no big deal, but lets be prepared, lets be seen as a responsible section of the public, not something to be feared and untrustworthy. We need to be part of the establishment and work with to ensure the future of this sport. We all need to belong to our national shooting bodies. Dennis Grimstorpe was great today, almost magical. roll on tommorrow You have a method statement every time you drive? If not, why not? I've heard many people compare gun ownership and shooting to driving. I respond with this; Driving is done in a public place, on a road, surrounded by many, many other people. In most cases there are also pedestrians to worry about too. When shooting, I do not do so with members of the public stood in front of me forming a window to shoot through, nor do other shooters stand in front of me shooting the opposite way directly past me. So how can shooting be compared to driving? You take a test to drive a car because its highly likely that driving without lessons and qualification in the required skills will result in your own death, and the death or injury of many others. If you apply for and SGC or FAC, its likely you have shot before, and know what you're doing. Why should we put ourselves through tests which are obviously not required? People complain about the health and safety world we work in, so why should we campaign for more red tape? As such, why the hell should we campaign for red tape around a recreational activity that we do for fun?! Often to escape the rigours of work, school, uni and life's ever marching problems? The day I have to legally inform the police when/where I shoot, fill out a method statement and have mandatory insurance is the day I pack up shooting, and most likely emigrate. And I can say that most others like me (students/young people/new blood in the sport) will probably do the same. Edited September 15, 2012 by cant hit rabbits 123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 No you won't , you will do whatever you have to do to enjoy your sport, i have to go through many hoops to enjoy my sport today, worse still at times it involves sacrifice from the rest of my family. I have never encouraged my sons to shoot and they don't . It get far worse if try to get involved in trying to improve this sport for the better, i go to clay shoots all over the World, i have many supporters but there are always a few that like you think that change will never come so leave well alone. I have probably been instrumental in making more changes to clayshooting than any other individual ......If you are a serious shooter, you will belong to one of the national shooting bodies and you will comply with most of the changes that will come in the near future. Iike you i consider myself a free spirit in this sport and hate authority of any sort, but we live in the real world, I have seen a shooter die at a shoot, struggled to try to save him, he could have been saved had the ground had some basic medical backup. At all major events we now have medical staff . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I'm a little lost as to your logic now Dennis.If for example,there were one big organisation of which every shooter was a member,and therefore insured,and had undertaken some sort of competency test,how and why are you suggesting that would either create or prevent the type of 'red tape' that prevails in the building industry;permits to work,method statements etc?I have been on slinger,signallers courses where the video I've watched during an induction on safe practises/methods has actually featured some of my workmates,who were undergoing the same induction as me,and we're all qualified! We are talking about a recreational sport here,no matter how serious you take it.It is a sport which has potentially serious repercussions for the participants,admittedly,but so does horse riding,swimming,mountaineering,skiing and many more. Like I've said,I think you mean well,but for some reason you're trying to create problems where they don't exist.The public will always associate 'GUNS' with 'KILLING' no matter what safety aspects you want to introduce.Our only hope for our survival long term is in the strength of numbers participating.If you want to kill off the sport, then introducing even more expensive beaurocracy to create an even more elitist sport,then that's the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) how long do you guys really think you can get away with free shooting without the shackles that every one else has to comply with, insurance, method statements, notification and competance test will be the norm Why are you so desperate to make all that happen? You seem to be positively relishing it. Honestly Dennis, any anti or shooting hating MP reading this will be cheering you all the way, one of our own trying to destroy us from within! They'll absolutely love it, can't you see that? :( .....How long do you really think you can just sit in a hide and shoot pigeons without doing a method statment on direction of shot , public footpaths, water course, potential crop damage. This will be a condition on anyone shooting on land they don't own, because a farmer just cannot afford to be sued for some wally cocking up......These are adjustments we will have to make to continue enjoying our sport, its no big deal, but lets be prepared, lets be seen as a responsible section of the public, not something to be feared and untrustworthy. That is one of the most frightening things I've ever read on these forums. As CHR says above, that will be the day I and thousands of others leave the sport. I said it in an earlier post and I'll ask again, is that secretly what you really want? Get rid of what you see as the riff raff? Have only a handful of shooters left in UK drowning in red tape they wished for? If your ideas weren't so barking I'd say you were one of the biggest threats to the future of shooting :( to ensure the future of this sport The irony! Edited September 16, 2012 by Blunderbuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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