Potental hazard of lead shot

[gunsmoke]

 

Potential Hazard to Human Health from Exposure to Fragments of Lead Bullets and Shot in the Tissues of Game Animals.

 

BY Pain of the WWT

 

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0010315

 

 

A must read to all shooters. This is what we have to fight.

 

I would note out one thing. The pigeon X-ray shwon on the report has fragments and Dr Pain say it is from the path of the lead shot. I would have thought it is broken bones from hitting the ground.

 

Along with the Cromie report [that's the BASC/WWT report on compliance] is the so called science being used against us.

 

The WWT are using the same type of play book as the AGW scientists used to bring in CO2 taxes and wind farms.

[mudpatten]

How do you suggest we fight this?

 

This is not an invitation for you to indulge in another mindless rant about BASC.

 

What do YOU propose we do about this?

Edited October 9, 2012 by mudpatten

[wymberley]

Unlike the mudpatten post which was obviously aimed at the OP, I'm not so fussy and will accept an answer from anyone who knows. I may not be the brightest spark but there's still the odd ember glowing. However, I was lost several paragraphs into the link. My question: Do we have anyone on our side who actually understands what the hell that was all about sufficiently well to counter it?

[Sussexboy]

Having read through that "scientific" report, some of it is a load of old guff.

 

Unless I missed it, there doesn't seem to be a control group of game that was not shot to test the lead levels found normally. This will of course vary over the country so there should have been a controlled collection of game from differing locations analysed and averaged out to provide a mean background level and a 90 percentile background level. They have used chicken as a group to compare against, but chicken is not game and does not live in the same environment.

 

A lot of results have been estimated.

 

Maximum likelihood methodology used because results from some samples fell below the limits of detection or quantification.

 

They say that birds with little or no shot in them also contained high levels of lead. I would say that needs further investigation.

 

They also go on to say that if you eat an unusually high but feasible amount of game then your lead exposure could exceed the weekly tolerable intake levels. Lots of if and could, but no substance.

 

All in all, a lot of information disguised as facts to suit an agenda.

[poontang]

Having read through that "scientific" report, some of it is a load of old guff.

 

Unless I missed it, there doesn't seem to be a control group of game that was not shot to test the lead levels found normally. This will of course vary over the country so there should have been a controlled collection of game from differing locations analysed and averaged out to provide a mean background level and a 90 percentile background level. They have used chicken as a group to compare against, but chicken is not game and does not live in the same environment.

 

A lot of results have been estimated.

 

Maximum likelihood methodology used because results from some samples fell below the limits of detection or quantification.

 

They say that birds with little or no shot in them also contained high levels of lead. I would say that needs further investigation.

 

They also go on to say that if you eat an unusually high but feasible amount of game then your lead exposure could exceed the weekly tolerable intake levels. Lots of if and could, but no substance.

 

All in all, a lot of information disguised as facts to suit an agenda.

 

That's pretty much how I read it too.

 

Just to throw something else into the mix the FSA have just issued advice stating that eating lead shot game on a frequent basis could cause exposure to harmful levels of lead.

 

http://www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2012/oct/lead-shot#.UHR7HC7LTWV

[guest1957]

"Species for which a daily meal based upon 150 g of meat would cause the PTWI to be exceeded are partridge (VMD data), woodcock (WWT) and pheasant (VMD). The alternative method of calculation based on the average meat component of the adult UK diet being replaced by game led to the PTWI being exceeded for consumption of partridge (VMD data) and woodcock (WWT)."

 

i.e. if you eat 150g (6oz) every single day you may possibly exceed a healthy limit.

 

If you ate that much red meat every day the health risks would be somewhat higher.

[poontang]

"Species for which a daily meal based upon 150 g of meat would cause the PTWI to be exceeded are partridge (VMD data), woodcock (WWT) and pheasant (VMD). The alternative method of calculation based on the average meat component of the adult UK diet being replaced by game led to the PTWI being exceeded for consumption of partridge (VMD data) and woodcock (WWT)."

 

i.e. if you eat 150g (6oz) every single day you may possibly exceed a healthy limit.

 

If you ate that much red meat every day the health risks would be somewhat higher.

 

Totally agree with what you say. Unfortunately the anti's will only be using the 'headline' in their propaganda.

 

Joe public seldom reads between the lines, and tends to believe scientific 'fact'.

[wymberley]

Well, there's my answer; yes we do. Four good posts from three people that do/can.

 

If I may partially answer the question mudpatten has asked, we should continue askling awkward questions and ensure that more of the type of information given at the four posts mentioned and which is written in plain English that folk can relate to, is placed in the public domain.

[al4x]

That xray shows a number of completely round shot no where near any of the highlighted fragments which also to me look far more like chipped bone either from the impact with the ground or shot passing through. Personally when I recover shot from a bird it looks remarkably like it did before it went in and being soft it really doesn't fragment.

 

Out of interest isn't Deborah Pain employed through my BASC subs?

[dougall]

I must agree with Alex.On shot birds,shot recovered when prepping is normally uniform and intact,no sign of splintering ever seen.I would reckon that I rarely find more than 3or 4 bits of shot from any game bird/pigeon/rabbit and by the time prepped can count on 1 hand the amount of shot that makes it to the table..and even then it is not eaten! I would love a truly independent and impartial study to be undertaken as generations of my family have eaten game/duck/pigeon....never heard of any lead poisoning deaths...clearly WWT and indeed BASC would have vested interests in such tests...perhaps a university team could undertake what would be an important piece of research. In the meantime I shall continue to eat game/pigeons/fowl/free range pork/chickens etc...as I fundamentally believe in eating what I kill and as most is killed with Lead will continue until such a time as a proper/believable/impartial study shows me I am poisoning myself and my family! The cynic in me sees this attack on Lead as the obvious manner by which to counter the 'Eat Game' promotions of a shooting body as it seems no coincidence to me that these press releases are flying out hot on the heels of BASC Game promotions...where are the FACTS?

[wymberley]

I must agree with Alex.On shot birds,shot recovered when prepping is normally uniform and intact,no sign of splintering ever seen.I would reckon that I rarely find more than 3or 4 bits of shot from any game bird/pigeon/rabbit and by the time prepped can count on 1 hand the amount of shot that makes it to the table..and even then it is not eaten! I would love a truly independent and impartial study to be undertaken as generations of my family have eaten game/duck/pigeon....never heard of any lead poisoning deaths...clearly WWT and indeed BASC would have vested interests in such tests...perhaps a university team could undertake what would be an important piece of research. In the meantime I shall continue to eat game/pigeons/fowl/free range pork/chickens etc...as I fundamentally believe in eating what I kill and as most is killed with Lead will continue until such a time as a proper/believable/impartial study shows me I am poisoning myself and my family! The cynic in me sees this attack on Lead as the obvious manner by which to counter the 'Eat Game' promotions of a shooting body as it seems no coincidence to me that these press releases are flying out hot on the heels of BASC Game promotions...where are the FACTS?

 

Make that 5 and 4.

[Dekers]

That xray shows a number of completely round shot no where near any of the highlighted fragments which also to me look far more like chipped bone either from the impact with the ground or shot passing through. Personally when I recover shot from a bird it looks remarkably like it did before it went in and being soft it really doesn't fragment.

 

Out of interest isn't Deborah Pain employed through my BASC subs?

 

Yep, I'd say it is pretty uncommon for shot to fragment, sometimes distorts a bit, but due to the nature of the shot and speed I'd say VERY little shot will fragment.

 

Some rifle ammo may well be a different story though, hence why when I am after a Canada for the table I go looking for the head shot with the V-Max!

[Dekers]

Oh yes, the report.

 

We all know lead is unhealthy that's why farmers/gamekeepers/country folk are all from generations of eating shot!

 

Doesn't the fact the bird is Free range, Organic, Fresh, suffered no stress on the way to be slaughtered, etc outweigh the fact we are killing ourselves with lead!

[dougall]

Having now read the attachment it would appear you need to eat 9 meals a week of partridge/woodcock/pheasant,without removing pellets, to exceed the acceptable lead intake......I don't know anybody who has such a diet. 9 vegetarian meals would have me Sh&8ing like a goose,9 steaks would blow an artery.........surely a fairer conclusion would be eating game as part of a balanced diet is great low fat protein..Anyway must go,having had a woodcock for breakfast,I am roasting partridge for lunch and must prep my pheasant for dinner............

[David BASC]

Deborah Pain is employed by the WWT not BASC and she is certainly not paid through your or my BASC subs!

 

Food scares come and go, we have all seen them over the years and the WWT made it pretty clear months ago that this was going to be their strategy.

 

As several of you have rightly said, the amount of game we would have to eat to cause a problem is enormous. Many foods contain lead- including chocolate…no one is calling for a ban on that!

 

Counter arguments are being made by both the CA and of course BASC, and was said in this weeks Shooting Times, the fact the WWT have done this outside of the LAG is very much like a child taking their ball home when the game’s not going their way!!

 

Interestingly it does not seem to have gained any mileage in the media today, not seen a mention in the broadsheets or main tabloids – but if any of you have let me know.

 

David

[wymberley]

 

Interestingly it does not seem to have gained any mileage in the media today, not seen a mention in the broadsheets or main tabloids – but if any of you have let me know.

 

David

 

David,

 

I concede that I have taken your words out of context but only do so in order to make a point.

 

If there had have been mention then hopefully our counter argument would have been included. This is the point that some are trying to make: The foregoing would, yet again, have been reactive. I would rather see a pro active mention - the good old pre-emptive strike as it were - just once in a while and not in the Shooting Times either.

[David BASC]

wymberley

 

Please rest assured i took what you said very seriously indeed, and it was a good point well made in my view

 

Best wishes

 

David

[gunsmoke]

How do you suggest we fight this?

 

This is not an invitation for you to indulge in another mindless rant about BASC.

 

What do YOU propose we do about this?

 

I only had a go at BASC on lead shot. That is all.

 

I hope some of you will read Dr Pain paper. Its all (male Bulls droppings).

 

If as DavidBASC says the WWT are reading these post then lets rubbish her work on here and help save shooting.

[David BASC]

There are battles to be fought on lead in Europe under REACH for example as we all know about – that’s where the shooting organisations come together under FACE UK to feed into and support FACE at the European level.

 

At the UK level we have the LAG – that’s the group that DEFRA are looking to for unbiased comment.

 

 

So what can be done now?

 

Stop fighting among ourselves or taking silly pot shots at each other

 

The latest ‘stuff’ from WWT and indeed the FSA is being challenged by the CA and BASC.

 

Support your chosen organisation and back what they are doing to keep lead – and your sport safe.

 

But as importantly comply with the current legislation- like it, / agree with it or not, if you don’t comply you are simply adding fuel to the flame of the WWT/ RSPB etc

 

David

[la bala]

slightly off topic i know. how many old timers on here like me drank water out of lead pipe for many years,and in rural areas people probably still do.

[andrewluke]

Oh yes, the report.

 

We all know lead is unhealthy that's why farmers/gamekeepers/country folk are all from generations of eating shot!

 

Doesn't the fact the bird is Free range, Organic, Fresh, suffered no stress on the way to be slaughtered, etc outweigh the fact we are killing ourselves with lead!

 

i think you should remove the "organic" bit as it's not organic!

 

 

andrew

[David BASC]

As I have said before the fact is that when water goes through a lead pipe it very quickly forms a film of typically inorganic salts on the inside of the pipe which creates a barrier between it and the water. Even so, if you look on the water company web site there is further guidance on safe use.

[poontang]

 

 

If as DavidBASC says the WWT are reading these post then lets rubbish her work on here and help save shooting.

 

I'm not sure 'rubbishing' her work is going to achieve anything.

 

To be fair she's fighting for what she believes in, and although I don't agree with some of what she says, or the way the WWT have gone about things recently, she's certainly stirred things up a bit.

I'm not sure why the WWT have gone outside the LAG process but I'd hazard a guess it's down to them feeling that the whole thing was dragging its feet, and I'm sure there was a fair bit of frustration on their part due to this perception?

 

Who knows for sure?

 

I do know I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the next LAG meeting (if there is one).

 

To be fair though, I doubt I'd be able to concentrate on proceedings with the lovely Debbie in attendance.

 

 

:wub:

[Blackpowder]

I have been eating animals and birds shot with lead pellets or bullets for over 60 years, drank water through lead pipes still on the go, active in fishing and shooting still working odd days. In all the time I have spent by rivers, on the sea in fields and woods I have yet to find a pining dying bird whose situation could be attributed to lead ingestion. Years ago when the lead ban first came about in England and Wales a S.N.H. or whatever they were called then officer told me privately that the lead ban was very much over the top where shore bird welfare was concerned. Its all bull byproduct another wedge to drive us fom our sport.

 

Blackpowder

[Scully]

I'm not sure 'rubbishing' her work is going to achieve anything.

 

To be fair she's fighting for what she believes in, and although I don't agree with some of what she says, or the way the WWT have gone about things recently, she's certainly stirred things up a bit.

I'm not sure why the WWT have gone outside the LAG process but I'd hazard a guess it's down to them feeling that the whole thing was dragging its feet, and I'm sure there was a fair bit of frustration on their part due to this perception?

 

Who knows for sure?

 

I do know I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the next LAG meeting (if there is one).

 

To be fair though, I doubt I'd be able to concentrate on proceedings with the lovely Debbie in attendance.

 

 

:wub:

Certainly better looking than J Swift.....she still hasn't replied to any of my e-mails, reluctantly I must delete her from my christmas card list.

To be honest I'm tired of reading 'official' documents;papers etc regarding the potential for lead poisoning through the eating of game shot with lead,and the effects of lead in food substances and its effect on the human body.By now,most of us know what the effects are,and they're miniscule in a normal diet,and the information to prove it is there for those who care to look for it.

The general public though,aren't going to look for it,and the media,even having an endless supply of relevant info' on tap,wont look for it either,as there's no mileage in the exclusive that lead shot poses no threat to human health.

All it takes for Ms Pain and her ilk to do harm is for us to do nothing.

If and when the LAG ever come to any conclusion,and by chance that conclusion finds in our favour,will there be an exclusive on nationwide breakfast tv announcing the fact?What do you reckon?