The State of Policing in the UK Today

[Greymaster]

Have the men in blue crossed the line?

I n the eyes of its natural supporters, the police force is beginning to look and act like

a law unto itself

 

By Andrew Gilligan

8:31PM GMT 21 Dec 2012

 

Even before the shocking possibility opened up this week in the Andrew Mitchell affair – that serving police officers conspired to destroy a Cabinet minister – it was clear that something in the police was wrong.

 

England has 39 police forces, headed by 39 chief constables or commissioners. In the past 18 months, seven have been sacked for misconduct, suspended, placed under criminal or disciplinary investigation or forced to resign. That is not far off a fifth of the total. In the same period, at least eight deputy or assistant chief constables have also been placed under ongoing investigation, suspended or forced out for reasons of alleged misconduct. No fewer than 11 English police forces – just under 30 per cent – have had one or more of their top leaders under a cloud.

 

Sean Price, chief constable of Cleveland, was sacked in October for gross misconduct and is on bail in a separate criminal investigation for corruption. In the same month, Sir Norman Bettison, chief constable of West Yorkshire, had to resign over his alleged role, which he denies, in concocting false information to smear the victims of the Hillsborough football disaster. He remains under investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the IPCC.

 

Also in October, Gordon Fraser, assistant chief constable of Leicestershire, killed himself after being suspended over allegations of gross misconduct and fraud. With his partner, also a serving police officer, he had recently appeared in court on charges of perverting the course of justice.

 

Stuart Hyde, acting chief constable of Cumbria, has been suspended for alleged misbehaviour. Grahame Maxwell, chief constable of North Yorkshire, was found guilty of gross misconduct after assisting a relative in a recruitment exercise. Adrian Lee, chief constable of Northamptonshire, is under IPCC investigation for allegedly withholding crucial evidence from a murder trial. Mr Lee is “ chair of professional ethics” for the Association of Chief Police Officers, ACPO.

 

 

Suzette Davenport, Mr Lee’ s deputy at Northamptonshire, Jane Sawyers, assistant chief constable in Staffordshire, and Marcus Beale, assistant chief constable in the West Midlands, are under investigation in the same matter as Mr Lee. Adam Briggs, Mr Maxwell’ s deputy in North Yorkshire, was disciplined, too, and has left the force. Derek Bonnard, Mr Price’ s former deputy chief at Cleveland, is suspended. Craig Denholm, deputy chief constable of Surrey, is under IPCC investigation for allegedly failing to reveal that Milly Dowler’ s voicemail had been hacked. David Ainsworth, deputy chief constable of Wiltshire, hanged himself after facing allegations of sexual misconduct from 13 different women. Most of these cases have barely been reported outside the local press. But they add up to the most serious spate of alleged wrongdoing at senior levels in the history of the police.

 

And of course, in July 2011, the most high-profile scalps of all, Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson and his assistant commissioner, John ates, were claimed at Scotland Yard after the Metropolitan Police’ s calamitous failings in the News of the World phone-hacking scandal. At lower ranks, in the three years to April 2011 – that is, even before “ Hackgate” broke – there was a 55 per cent rise in referrals to the PCC for corruption, from 215 cases to 333. And in a decade, the overall number of complaints made each year against the police has roughly doubled – from 15,248 to 30,143 – though there has been a decline in the last two years.

 

 

Even before the shocking possibility opened up by “ Plebgate” , the police have been plagued by scandal and incompetence. We now learn that one of the reasons why the Metropolitan Police did nothing about the systematic criminality of the News of the World was because some officers were in the paper’ s pocket, or even on its payroll.

 

There were the riots, the most serious breakdown in order in 30 years, when the capital and many major cities were effectively no longer under the rule of law. They developed slowly – over three days – and could almost certainly have been stopped had police dealt more firmly with the first night of violence, which was confined to one London borough. Instead, they allowed the centres of Wood Green and Tottenham Hale to be ransacked and burned for an entire night, as news cameras broadcast the pictures to the world. As one London Labour MP, Diane Abbott, put it, the Met’ s failure to intervene “ gave the green light to every little hooligan in London to come out on the following days to loot and steal” .

 

There is the G20 killing, when we learnt that PC Simon Harwood, the officer who pushed Ian Tomlinson to the ground, causing his death, had a foot-long record of allegedly punching, throttling, kneeing or threatening suspects; that he had been forced to resign after altering his notes to justify an illegal arrest; but that he had then been almost immediately re-employed by the police and had returned to serve in one of the Met’ s most sensitive units.

 

Most stunningly, there was the gigantic conspiracy of Hillsborough, where a special team of South Yorkshire police chiefs and solicitors systematically rewrote more than a hundred statements by their own officers to deflect blame from the force for the disaster, in which 96 Liverpool football fans died, and place it on the victims instead. This has now triggered the biggest independent investigation into police wrongdoing in British history.

 

Yet, through everything, the police have managed to undermine many attempts at reform. Elected police commissioners, this Government’ s key initiative, were originally supposed to be chosen alongside local councillors in the sunshine of May, guaranteeing at least a minimum turnout and legitimacy. But police interests, and the Liberal Democrats, kept the legislation so long in the Lords that the Government had to postpone the election to the cold and dark of November, producing the lowest turnouts on record.

 

Police commissioners were supposed to be credible figures, with real standing in their communities. In the original Bill, criminal record disqualifications were the same as for any other public office. But ACPO successfully promoted amendments, far tougher even than for police officers themselves, barring anyone convicted of a potentially imprisonable offence in their entire lives. That conveniently is qualified several of the best candidates, including Bob Ashford, a former Youth Justice Board director who had been fined 5 as a 13-year-old in 1966.

 

Even the initial dilatory approach to the riots, some people in Government suspect, may have involved an element of police politics. “On the first day, we cannot help wondering whether the very muted response was somebody’s attempt to make a point about the cuts and the shortage of police resources,” says one person close to the former Metropolitan Police Authority. “To be fair, I think they were as horrified as the rest of us afterwards at the way it took off.”

 

In any tight corner, the police still have overwhelming advantages. Juries will almost never convict police officers. Elections tend to be fought on the odd assumption that the effectiveness of a police force is measured by the number of people it employs. Politicians know that in any quarrel with the police, the public will always choose the men and women in uniform. Why else did Mr Mitchell not directly accuse his accusers of lying?

 

With Plebgate, however, Tory tolerance of police politicking may have reached its limit. The Police Federation has shown regret at jumping on the scandal to promote its pay and conditions claims. Mr Mitchell was lied about by at least one Federation leader, and now says he has lost confidence in the Met commissioner. David Davis, the former shadow home secretary, has called the police version of events “simply nonsense” .

 

Mr Mitchell got into trouble in a way that lots of law-abiding people will recognise: losing his temper at some apparently arbitrary manifestation of police authority. He had always been allowed to ride his bike through theDowning Street gates before. It was the police who uddenly, and without any clear reason, decided to prohibit it.

 

In a tiny way, the Mitchell incident might illustrate the growing feeling among respectable olk that the police can sometimes be a law unto themselves. And in a bigger way it llustrates perhaps the greatest problem of all: the breakdown in relations between the police, and the people– both big and small-C conservatives– who should be their natural uspporters.

 

If a conspiracy is proved, it will be a deeply dangerous moment for the police.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9761022/Have-the-men-in-blue-crossed-the-line.html

[Greymaster]

The conduct of the police as enumerated above is why I believe they are the wrong organisation to be in control of Firearms Licensing in the UK. I would rather they were left to enforcement of the law, and that licensing be managed by an independent licensing authority, with shooters organisations on the management board, and an appeals process where the police are able to give evidence, among others, but not decide the outcome.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Greymaster

[Gordon R]

The number of bent Policemen / women is a reflection of society. There are good and bad. I happen to think that the vast majority are excellent, with truly awful officers in a minority. The problem is that the media seizes on the rotten apples - it makes news.

 

It is a quantum leap from:-

 

Have the men in blue crossed the line?

I n the eyes of its natural supporters, the police force is beginning to look and act like

a law unto itself

 

To suggesting that firearms control / licensing should be with another body.

 

Why not privatise it to someone like Group 4? I really can't foresee any problem there. :lol:

 

Just how will any new authority be more honest or independent than the Police? As for involving shooting organisations - perish the thought. One of the very top shooters in the World today - our very own Dennis - has little faith in BASC. Not even sure of his view on the current CPSA.

[Vince Green]

I still totally believe that things are better today than they ever were. The fact that you hear so much more today actually proves my point. Years ago you simply wouldn't have heard about these things, that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

 

Just a little story to illustrate my point. Years ago my friend's dad had a small clothing business in the Jewish East End of London. The police used to come round collecting money. it was done quite openly, it was the east end and thats how things were done in those days.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Vince Green

[lxtav]

There are good and bad in all jobs especially one with as many people as the police it doesn't automatically mean that there is a problem with the culture of the police as such. However since the Tory government of the 80's policing has gone from what I regard as policing, helping the public and using a bit of common sense to uphold the peace, to a numbers game, lock everyone up there is a crime in everything. A common phrase around the stations at times is "It's not a numbers game" as so many of the senior management have got to where they are by manipulating figures to get better results so they can say how good they are to get another promotion. I have been told things such as we will do X amount of hours of foot patrol which is virtually impossible with the manpower available so we have been told that walking from the car to the door of the house is foot patrol so now there is a kind of its O.K to bend the rules mentality with some officers.

 

It is much much better than the dishonest beat them up police force of the past but you will always get the odd officer that is still like that and they deserve everything that they get when found out. In the Andrew Mitchell case if officers have found to have lied then they deserve everything they get as it reflects badly on the thousands of good cops out there. It is unfortunate that it is only the bad cops that make the headlines so it looks like a huge problem when it is just a few individuals overall as "Cop lies to sack Goverment minister" makes a better headline than "Cop helps granny that has fallen over".

 

One thing to remember is that Mitchell has stated himself that he shouted and swore at the police officers so despite the fact that it appears that officers have lied or embellished the story he still swore at the police. As several other politicians have stated if he had been a teenage hoodie on a council estate he would have been flung in a cell and prosecuted with the Government applauding the stern zero tolerance attitude of the police why should it be any different just because he is a politician that he can say sorry to the oficers and it's O.K.

[Livefast123]

The above bad apples represent a tiny minority of the 120,000+ rank and file officers who go to work each day to do a good job. The problem with todays press is that you only hear about the bad things that happen and never the good.

 

I find what happened at Plebgate bewildering, if those officers have lied then they deserve everything they get and should be sacked as dishonesty is not a good trait in a police officer. They are a disgrace to the force and have tarred every police officer in the country with a dirty brush.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Livefast123

[pat 1]

What makes this smarmy politician so lovable all of a sudden?.There is obviously some alterior motive behind this story. All whistle blowers had better be vary careful in future. This p***k thought being a politician ment he was above the law. The whole story stinks.

[Muggins.]

The above bad apples represent a tiny minority of the 120,000+ rank and file officers who go to work each day to do a good job. The problem with todays press is that you only hear about the bad things that happen and never the good.

 

I find what happened at Plebgate bewildering, if those officers have lied then they deserve everything they get and should be sacked as dishonesty is not a good trait in a police officer. They are a disgrace to the force and have tarred every police officer in the country with a dirty brush.

 

"The problem with todays press is that you only hear about the bad things that happen and never the good."

Maybe because there aren`t that many good points anymore.

[Livefast123]

Or rather that the good points don't sell newspapers.

[matone]

According to aquaintances who are serving occifers ,the very worst people usually creepy crawl their way to the top !

The OP seems to confirm that scenario perfectly.

[Vince Green]

the very worst people usually creepy crawl their way to the top

 

Thats true of many, if not all, big organisations

[kdubya]

The penny is starting to drop and no it aint a few spoiling it, its rife, particularly at the top.

 

KW

[Greymaster]

The number of bent Policemen / women is a reflection of society. There are good and bad. I happen to think that the vast majority are excellent, with truly awful officers in a minority. The problem is that the media seizes on the rotten apples - it makes news.

 

We should not expect the same % of bad coppers as bad civilians in the general population. Recruits go through a selection process to ascertain their suitability to SERVE. They also take an OATH to serve. Civilians do not.

 

I wonder how many Pigeonwatch members have been subject to firearms licensing process run by all those questionable Chief Constables mentioned above? Do you really not mind them being final arbiter in whether you get your licence, and what conditions are imposed?

 

Re licensing. I am not suggesting BASC or G4 run a national licensing scheme, I am suggesting an independent scheme with standards that apply uniformly across the land, with shooters, as well as medics, and other interested parties being involved in setting policy.

[figgy]

I think it's time the police learned they are there to uphold the law not make it.

 

And how can this corruption be so widespread when controls are supposed to be In place.

 

Figgy

[bedwards1966]

Overall I have found the police are a disgrace.

 

They aren't all bad, there are still many officers out there who work hard and try to do a good job - I've met several, but sadly their efforts are well hidden by those who think that the laws don't apply to them, that people are guilty if they think they could be, and who will lie and cheat to achieve their own aims.

 

Policing is no longer about the prevention of crime or attempting to do any good, it's about catching people afterwards and getting the figures up by charging them - and they aren't that fussed if the people they catch are guilty. They also seem happy to let criminals with plenty of evidence against them off when it suits the police. They like easy cases.

 

 

Things have certainly improved - beating up prisoners, denying access to solicitors and so on no longer seem to be problems (thanks to PACE), and now we are starting to hear about corruption, mistakes, incompetence and so on. However, while things may have come on, many things are still completely unacceptable and it needs sorting out.

 

I think the biggest problem is the overall police attitude, and the fact that the police will lie to cover each other, and it's very rare that misconduct is punished - in almost all cases the police get away with it.

 

These problems start from the top, if the Chief Constable wants to change things then he/she would. However, the people who get themselves into that nice comfy position only do this by looking after themselves, not by actually doing a good job or caring. Even if they did once intend to do good, by the time they actually reach a position where they can change things they have lost their original goals.

[Zulu]

Overall I have found the police are a disgrace.

 

They aren't all bad, there are still many officers out there who work hard and try to do a good job - I've met several, but sadly their efforts are well hidden by those who think that the laws don't apply to them, that people are guilty if they think they could be, and who will lie and cheat to achieve their own aims.

 

Policing is no longer about the prevention of crime or attempting to do any good, it's about catching people afterwards and getting the figures up by charging them - and they aren't that fussed if the people they catch are guilty. They also seem happy to let criminals with plenty of evidence against them off when it suits the police. They like easy cases.

 

 

Things have certainly improved - beating up prisoners, denying access to solicitors and so on no longer seem to be problems (thanks to PACE), and now we are starting to hear about corruption, mistakes, incompetence and so on. However, while things may have come on, many things are still completely unacceptable and it needs sorting out.

 

I think the biggest problem is the overall police attitude, and the fact that the police will lie to cover each other, and it's very rare that misconduct is punished - in almost all cases the police get away with it.

 

These problems start from the top, if the Chief Constable wants to change things then he/she would. However, the people who get themselves into that nice comfy position only do this by looking after themselves, not by actually doing a good job or caring. Even if they did once intend to do good, by the time they actually reach a position where they can change things they have lost their original goals.

How would you implement change to achieve a police force that arn't a disgrace/attitude probs/liars ? , not criticising just asking , if the problem starts at the top how can the future chiefs be better selected/trained to help improve things ?

[Gordon R]

This thread will end up like that bleating woman who dominated TV a few years ago - "there must be another way" - without ever saying what it is.

 

it's about catching people afterwards and getting the figures up by charging them - and they aren't that fussed if the people they catch are guilty.

 

No need to let facts cloud the issue. :lol:

[bedwards1966]

How would you implement change to achieve a police force that arn't a disgrace/attitude probs/liars ? , not criticising just asking , if the problem starts at the top how can the future chiefs be better selected/trained to help improve things ?

 

That's a very good question, and the answer is long and difficult - and I don't claim to have it.

 

I don't think that there is any easy way, I feel that the attitude of the police is the biggest change needed and that's not going to be quick. If the police were actually punished when they are found to lie/steal/misbehave then they could then learn that it is not acceptable. What we currently have is a system where if someone in the police does something wrong, nothing much gets done about it. The IPCC will investigate, but they are too small to look at everything, so they pass it down - to the police! It seems that only the biggest cases actually get investigated by the IPCC, I think that after that it's investigated by another force, if it's not that big then it goes to the same force that needs investigating - I think you can guess the outcome of these investigations.

 

If the people at all levels were sacked - and I don't mean nice resignations - then things should start to change rapidly. Officers who are found to be keeping quiet about corruption also need to be sacked as this is what permits it all to happen.

 

I'm not actually sure that the IPCC are that good. They don't have the resources to investigate everything, and it seems that when they do find enough evidence against a police officer they can take the punishment too far, which leaves many officers terrified of failing to follow the rules to the letter where common sense needs to come first.

Edited December 22, 2012 by bedwards1966

[bedwards1966]

This thread will end up like that bleating woman who dominated TV a few years ago - "there must be another way" - without ever saying what it is.

 

 

 

No need to let facts cloud the issue. :lol:

 

You may find my statement funny, but it's based on my own experience and what I've seen of other people. The police often aren't interested in right or wrong, they'd rather just charge someone where it suits them. Another crime 'solved'.

They never admit to being wrong, even after a court finds someone to be innocent. Apologies for getting it wrong and making mistakes? That's about as frequent as flying cows.

 

But of course, I think I'm talking to one of the experts with rose tinted specs here - aka a police officer.

Edited December 22, 2012 by bedwards1966

[Vince Green]

At least its not like this

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=7Z8stc9UcY0

 

 

 

 

you need to keep these things in the context of what it could be like. Police corruption? we don't know we are born. Oh the system here is far from perfect but nothing is perfect.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Vince Green

[Gordon R]

The police often aren't interested in right or wrong, they'd rather just charge someone where it suits them. Another crime 'solved'.

 

But of course, I think I'm talking to one of the experts with rose tinted specs here - aka a police officer.

 

bedwards1966 - you spout rubbish with an admirable ease.

[unapalomablanca]

If you dont back the police then you are backing crime. The police never bother me as i dont bother them. I see the vermin that exist in the u.k. today, the vermin that happily gob in a female officers face and call her a ****. They deserve their pay and pension. i do however wish they would 'beat patrol' like they used to. The ones that are misbehaving at the moment are just a reflection of society, good and bad in any walk of life.

 

Dont knock the police. Knock the lowlifes that require policing in the first place.

[Gordon R]

Well said - that man. :good:

[tweedledee]

totally agree, policing has to change with the times, there should be a harder stance taken. the criminal elements in todays society have no fear of police.....

[Vince Green]

totally agree, policing has to change with the times, there should be a harder stance taken. the criminal elements in todays society have no fear of police.....

 

For the most part its the courts they have no fear of........with good reason