Clays -v- live targets.

[Cranfield]

Firstly, I must state that I am not a clay shooter and probably go to a clay ground no more than 3-4 times a year (mainly for a practise social).

Also, I have nothing against clay shooters, whether they be occasional ones , or clays only shooters.

 

Last Sunday I went to a clay ground near Dover and enjoyed myself, but the layout reminded me that what I was shooting, had little comparison with live quarry shooting.

 

I appreciate that I had to find my target, swing through, give the required lead and hit it.

But, my target was not behaving like a live bird.

 

In the field, I have to firstly ensure that its a legitimate quarry, then gauge the range and anticipate the flight of the bird, I usually have the time to do this.

Thats all done for you when clay shooting, because you don't have the time.

 

So, whats the difference that makes live quarry shooters miss clays ?

I believe its the speed of the clays and their size.

 

I regularly shoot high, fast pheasants, pigeons with the wind in their tails, driven partridge and have shot my fair share of turbo charged teal, but none move as fast as some of the clays I shot at on Sunday.

 

I found my mindset moving into an automaton mode, where I just fired fast and automatically, then looked for the next target.

That doesn't happen in the field.

 

The concentration levels on clays is much higher, due to the number of targets and the intensity, and when concentration starts to drop, you start to miss.

It can be quite tiring.

 

I also notice the layouts have become much more testing and specialised over the years.

There no longer seems to be the intention to duplicate "sporting" scenarios , at every stand.

A classic example is, some of the "on report" doubles (say, where the targets may be low going away, then a high crosser), if they occurred in the field, you would not attempt the second target, probably because it was on the edge of your "safe target" area.

 

These comments are not meant to suggest that live quarry shooting is more skillful than clays, or the opposite, but just that, in my opinion, they are quite different.

 

I will naturally strictly moderate any suggestions, that I am making excuses for my low score on Sunday.

[Lancs Lad]

If anything...........I find shooting clays a hell of a lot easier than shooting live birds.........

 

You must must be a **** shot on the clays.......

 

(lets see how long that stays there... )

[MC]

Cranfield,

 

I quite agree with what you are saying, although clay shooting is all about gauging distance, speed , angle of flight and practically every similarity between live quarry shooting. The only thing not the same is quarry identification.

 

I agree that you may not take the second shot if you had a low bird or rabbit and then a high crossing pheasant, or would you? if you thought it was safe and you get another for the pot.

 

If all clay grounds had direct representations of live birds, and were large clays then no-one would go. If you could hit everything you ever shot at then where is the challenge. I target shoot on a regular basis and the one thing that we all are trying to do is score 100 every time. The fact that we don't keeps us striving to get better.

 

I went Pigeon shooting a few weeks back which is something I don't do very often and found it hard. You do not get a second bird in the same place directly after missing the first one. You can do that at a clay ground.

 

You say that you got into an automation mode and fired then looked for the second bird and you would not do that in the field, yet you probably do every time there is more than a single pigeon in the air. You would pick the frist out and shoot it and if killed with the first shot you would look for the second bird and shoot at that. After all a "left and right" is something to talk about. especially if it is a testing two shots.

 

I think there is a great similarity between clays and game, and certainly anyone starting out shooting should spend time at clay shoots before shooting at any living animal.

 

I was on a shoot on saturday and there were a few guys who could hit a barn if they were inside it yet they were happily blasting away at pheasants. If they had spent a few hours at the local clay ground they would have hit them.

 

It is not about excuses, it is about how often you do it. If you shoot clays or game on a regular basis then you become good at it. If you don't practise you will only ever be inconsistent.

 

Somebody like George Digweed or Richard Falulds or Catamong will hit nearly everything they shoot at because they practise on a regular basis.

[Catamong]

I've noticed over the years that most good game shots can be top class clay shots, people like Phil Fussell, Phil Beasley, (yes, Will's Old Man) and David Olive spring to mind.

 

The reason they are good clay shots is because they shoot a lot of clays as well as a lot of game.

 

Most clay pigeons fly a lot faster than most pheasants and the window of opportunity to hit them is much shorter, a lot of quite competent game shots have hardly mounted the gun by the time the clay disappeared out of range. There is no excuse for this as you always know where the clay is coming from and at what angle and speed, so if you are awake you should be able to connect.

 

A lot of game shooters start with the gun butt waving around their kneecaps when calling "pull", this usually results in a late mismount and another missed bird. Serious clay shooters generally shoot most targets"gun up" to overcome this problem, I well remember a quote from George Digweed when I commented on his "gun up", he said "look Cat, this ain't figure skating, you don't get points for style", how true.

 

Cat.

[pin]

Two different things, one trying within its obvious bounds to be similar to the other (with sporting/compact I mean).

 

I find both very enjoyable (game/clays) and find clays an excellent way to stay sharp, focused and practice gun mount etc. The problem is any "ground" will have limitations as to the targets it can put on for safety and practicality reasons, a club clay shoot can usually have much more variation.

 

For example we do a pigeon flush at one of my shoots, 6 auto traps, some with the angles on, lots of birds in the air at once with the traps hidden from view. Now that simulates pigeon, really well.

 

Sometimes we shoot from inside a spinney which is close by, high crossing shots you can only pick up for a few seconds or so, I think that simulates roost shooting brilliantly.

 

I love both, I would take a day on the real pigeon over a day on the clays every day of the week - no question. I don't have that luxury so I practice clays for the reasons above.

 

I don't like commercial clay grounds, unless its the first time I have shot there (or they have varied the layout considerably since my last visit). If you shoot at the same place every week with the targets changing only every month I don't see the point - all these comments refer to sporting, mind.

 

DTL / skeet are good for reactions and staying sharp, too.

 

I think all game shooters should do the right thing and brush off the cobwebs with a few rounds of sporting before the first game shoot of the season at least, for my mind the odd round during the season too, to stay sharp and get the old mind and muscle memory working again

[Bradders]

I shoot clays on a regular basis, maybe twice a month but I only shoot the live pigeons on a very irregular basis, lack of land being the main reason....Although I was in a game syndicate for a few years till the channel tunnel rail link went through it!!

 

Anyway, to get to the point, my problem is I am a much bettter shot when I dont have time to "think" about the bird. My percentage hit rate is much better at clays because the shooting is almost instinctive where practices and a good gun mount works wonders, i start with the gun just out of the shoulder then mount when I see the target, with gun up I have trouble spotting the clay.

 

Live quarry on the other hand, I find that I have far to much time to spot, mount, aim, aim, aim and miss !!! basically I am thinking about the shot far too much rather than using "instinct". I find I am much more successful if I leave the whole thing as late as possible rather than track the bird from way out.

[throdgrain]

Ive always been a rough shooter, but in the last 7 or 8 months Ive got really into clays.

On wednesday last week I had a good rough day, not an enormous bag but 4 pigeons a rabbit a crow and a magpie, so quite varied

On sunday I went clay shooting, and to be honest I enjoyed it more. Its just what you like I suppose, but I enjoyed fireing 125 shells in a coupl,e of hours, enjoyed the bit of banter around the courses, just gnerally had more fun.

Just how you feel I suppose

[Cranfield]

I suspect the comments that those who shoot clays a lot, get good at it, are the most accurate.

Likewise, with live quarry shooting, practise makes perfect.

 

I am not convinced that being good at one, automatically makes you proficient at the other.

 

One thing that is for certain, I personally feel under more pressure shooting clays, than live quarry.

Whether its the hint of competition, being observed by other shooters (waiting their turn), or some other reason, I'm not sure.

 

With regard to having too much time sometimes, when shooting live quarry, I don't actually go into "shooting mode", until I judge the bird to be within range, then I shoot it quickly.

I find this helps, as does the game shot habit of not mounting the gun until the last moment, something that I agree doesn't work on the clay grounds.

 

I agree that all shooters should spend time on clays, before going after live quarry.

Also, I would support some kind of proficiency certification (like on the Continent), but thats another debate.

[Catamong]

I have found that if I ease up on the clays and shoot a lot of pigeons, my scores drop a bit when I go back to clays, they both require a very different technique.

 

Cat.

[Suffolk shooter]

I was on the shoot that Martin mentioned on Saturday and there were people there who, to coin the phrase "had all the gear, but no idea".

 

I found the birds (Pheasants) on Saturday to be easier than some of the clays us guys were shooting on the Monday madness day the other week. At no point did I see a bird like (for those who were there) the driven coming straight over the top or the going away/coming towards.

 

I feel that as echo'd by Catamong, each form of shooting, be it sporting, DTL, SKeet, ABT, Compact, Fitasc, Live Pigeon, Pheasant, Duck, Goose, Crow is different in it's own right.

 

For example, I know when I have a lot of time, I generally miss, I prefer the snap shooting style. I used to shoot gun up, but kept missing the site picture. Now I am competant enough to have gun down or just out of the shoulder (dependant on clay discipline) to hit most clays I see. And this transgresse into the field where nobody sits or stands with Gun up for a duck, pheasant, partridge etc.

 

Cranfield you have a point about clays not really simulating game anymore, I mean for those who have visited the Fenns at Braintree, Essex, Can anybody tell me that in the field they have seen a bird like the Battue off the Tower and taken a shot at it? Those who say yes on both accounts should be disgraced as this is far over the acceptable range of a normal load cartridge for any bird. However in terms of clays this is ok and practise makes perfect. The other thing is with clays you know where they're coming from and where there going to, you don't in the field.

 

I shoot regularly at Parkford, which Alistar Ford owns, (For those who don't know him, he has represented England at Skeet over 13-14 years). Now I love skeet, and talked at length to him about how much practise he used to do and he mentioned that he shoot 4-5000 cartridges a week in practise and that then didn't include all of the competitions he used to travel round the country to enter at the weekends. So say max 6000 cartridges a week, that's alot of practise which most normal people cannot comprehend possibly putting 1-2000 cartridges through their gun in a year. He is also a good game shot, but these days doesn't shoot as much. Jimmy Ling is another who has won a lot of titles in years gone by, but he is a farmer who was brought up with a gun and shooting being a way of life. If you get the chance to visit his shop, you can see the bags of pigeons he has hit over the years in the gun room, we are talking 3-400 at a time.

 

I think that each to their own in terms of clays and game, but without a doubt practise, practise, practise is the key to being successful at any level.

[the last engineer]

i have to agree with most of the comments here, different strokes comes to mind, there are many degrees of skill level in both clays and wing shooting, when all's said and done we all try to hit 100%, you have to admire as i do the people who excell at his/her sport be it skeet, trap, dtl, sporting, of which there are many games, not forgetting filed craft, proficiency in one field dosent make you a master of the other.

 

when you break it all down its about finding your sweet spot, where do you excell and where do you need to improove, in the field or at the range, each will enhance the other if practiced enough, or you have the choice to remain a solo participant and concentrate on one discipline and exceed at that.

 

me i love em all, not enough shells in this world to fill my boots, we all love to win, its the journey there right.

 

Martin

[Ferret Master]

Another difference between quarry and clays is that the clay will always be slowing down but quarry can and will change speed.

 

Personally I'm quite new to shotgun shooting and have been learning at my local clay club doing 50 sporting targets a week and I must say that lots of the targets that we use from the auto and manual traps resemble quarry very accurately.

 

FM

[njc110381]

After reading this, I'm getting a bit nervous of shooting live quarry. I'm shooting skeet at every chance I get at the moment, to try to improve my scores. Once I've mastered clays, I'm hoping I'll be a good enough shot to bring the birds down cleanly most of the time? I assume things just slow down a bit on live birds, I should be ok with that. I don't want to hurt anything if I can help it

[pin]

Both are targets to be hit, learning about lead etc is always only going to help (not so sure about skeet as the best discipline for this, try sporting). Live pigeon shooting is tough, the pigeon is a wiley beast and can be extremely quick, change direction very quickly etc.

 

Best advice would be go out with an experienced shot the first few times if you can, so you have that bit more confidence. You are going about things the right way, try not to over analyse things though

[Lord Geordie]

Another difference between quarry and clays is that the clay will always be slowing down but quarry can and will change speed.

 

Personally I'm quite new to shotgun shooting and have been learning at my local clay club doing 50 sporting targets a week and I must say that lots of the targets that we use from the auto and manual traps resemble quarry very accurately.

 

FM

 

Beleive me when you visit a clay ground with a bit of wind stirring up then the CLAYS can have a mind of their own too

 

Up down left right slow with a head wind and over the hill with a following wind.

 

While i agree with Cranfield that Clays are no comparison for live quarry it is STILL an enjoyable sport which DOES require skill.

 

Ok i know I haven't got the skill for 100% hits BUT i think it is perfect practice for novices on the likes of Skeet for crossing birds

 

DTL for walked up game

 

Grouse for driven

 

and ABT for reflex shooting

 

LG

[BTMS]

As Suffolk shooter says practice makes perfect.. Alistair Ford is a delight to watch shoot skeet. His brother Richard who I think is one of the best game shots I have ever seen, taught a lot of excellent shots including the world under 21 Olympic skeet champion.. I have had the opportunity and good fortune to shoot with both and picked up a lot of good tips. They gave up on teaching me DTL

 

shooting is mostly eyes and confidence with not too much thinking and waiting in between.

 

 

Brian

[ziplex]

After reading this, I'm getting a bit nervous of shooting live quarry. I'm shooting skeet at every chance I get at the moment, to try to improve my scores. Once I've mastered clays, I'm hoping I'll be a good enough shot to bring the birds down cleanly most of the time? I assume things just slow down a bit on live birds, I should be ok with that. I don't want to hurt anything if I can help it

 

That's probably the way to do it, but i've only shot clays 2 or 3 times total........if a get a call to go pigeon shooting with a friend I jump at the chance. Do I hit every bird cleanly?....no I don't and nor I doubt does everyone else but the few that are 'runners' are caught quick enough and despatched straight away. Having said that birds that I consider difficult/out of range for me are left well alone and I only fire at the ones i'm confident of hitting. I could shoot at everything in sight but I know my limits, having said that when I eventually get my own gun i'll practice at the clay grounds and i'm sure i'll take on more birds with confidence.

[henry d]

Another difference between quarry and clays is that the clay will always be slowing down but quarry can and will change speed.

Absolutely top reply IMO,as everyone at Bisley will know I couldn`t do "NAMAW" all at the clays,`cept the bunnies....100% ,I could have done 50 straight there

 

I can`t get myself enthused at clays,though others can and do........Horses and Courses !

[Noddy without Bigears]

Although clays & live are two different disciplines, they are one and the same thing, the common factor is that the target is moving usually within a 40-50 yards radius of the shooter. If you take aside whether it is live or not the sole object is to hit/kill that target. I've shot both over a 25 year period and it does not concern me in the slightest whether it is live or not my sole aim is to hit the clay/pigeon. If you have the basics of shooting you will hit either successfully. The one variable factor is consistency, you visit you local 50 bird shoot, you know you are going to shoot 50 birds, go pigeon shooting you cannot predict how many birds you will shoot, if any. When I was seriously into Clay Pigeon I would go through about 1000 carts a month but I would never come close to that amount shot at live pigeons. Through shooting regularly at clay shoots my shooting greatly improved as I was able to analize where I had gone wrong, in the field with live quarry you may not have the opportunity to do that, particularly on a quiet day. My main point is forget whether it's live or not, think of it as a target and your scores will improve in both.

[Shotgun-Sean]

Cranfield, i take it this was the Martin gorse shooting ground that you went to, i also have been frequenting this ground through out the year and must say i have to agree with you there is more to shooting live quarry its not just the shooting that appeals to me its also the fieldcraft and me verses the cunning woodie.

 

cheers sean