Modern 410 shotguns for hunting, discussion

[matt fieldcrafter-uk]

Let me start by asking that this doesn't degenerate into a debate of how poor. 410 can be for beginners / ladies/ children's first gun .

 

 

I have read alot about this topic all over the world on different forums / articles . And offen there is two camps of thought .

1: " the best calibre in the world for handicap experienced shots "

2: "a bygone novelty that wounds more than it kills"

 

 

I'm in the first group , but accept if used wrongly can clearly be group two .

 

So lets move to the point we all understand. that with practice , patterning and establishing the correct loads and ranges the gun is as capable as any other shotgun .

 

My intrest lye with the new breed of .410 shotguns coming from the Turkish kennels through to the large established gun makers like beretta . And the much higher quality cartradges that are available today ( expensive I know ) but with home loading can be made at an affordable price ?

 

I love .410 and have had some great shooting with the calibre including cock pheasant (in flight)

Carrion crows, rooks and rabbit all of which where moving targets and killed cleanly , some with 9 gram loads of 6's .

 

My 410 has broken and been scrapped some months now and I miss it almost daily ,but before jumping in to buy another I want to hear from other shooters that enjoy the calibre , who perhaps have invested in the modern shotguns .

I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on the guns and cartridges of today . The results you can obtain and the reality of the performance once a match has been found .barrel length , choke , cartradge and load )

 

Things like barrel length ( is there an improvement in performance)

 

Who made the gun ( are the £1000+ guns worth that much more than the Turkish sub £600 guns )

 

I shoot everyday exclusively shotguns currently .

A good session shooting can be 40+ decoyed pigeons or an hours stroll for a rabbit and a magpie . The diversity is the enjoyment for me and I would probably pick up my .410 50% of my outings if I still had one .

 

I look forward to your input , iv heard anicdotes of very good clay shots hit 60 yard clays regularly through Guns like kreigoff's etc .

So even if you dont shoot .410 but know people or have seen others shoot them please comment .

 

All the best , matt .

[Cranfield]

I think the problem with the understanding and appreciation of the .410, is that too many people start with one as an inexperienced shooter.

They then get a little experience and move up the gauges as their experience increases, leaving the .410 behind.

 

I did this and soon forgot the .410.

It was only after returning to one after 20 years shooting experience that I really appreciated the capability of the little gauge.

Mine is a Gunmark Kestrel sbs, double trigger choked full and full.

Its great fun on skeet and I have shot decoyed pigeons and walked up game with mine.

I use Gamebore 14gm No9 shot for skeet and Gamebore 3" 16gms for live quarry.

 

I have seen examples of the Yildiz guns and they appear to be made to a good specification, but I have never owned one.

 

Having said all that, my main "serious" shooting is done with a 12 or 20 gauge, so although I enjoy my .410 it does take third place.

[bigman]

I have 2 410s both single barrel , husher power and the other a cheap folder love them both and as you say great for having a walk about with a perhaps getting a rabbit or 2 ,

If only I could find some other size shot rather than just 6s id really like to try some 5s and even BB

[ChrisAsh]

As you say many knock the 410 without really trying it out

 

As for range, the cartridges have the same shot and velocity as a 12 g so the shot goes the same distance and the same hitting power

 

The pattern is slightly smaller with less shot and rather sparser so clays and the like can stand a better chance of getting away through the pattern

 

Can easily break clays at 35-45 metres so dont understand the 20-25 metres people talk about

 

I have a remington 1100 410 at present but had a Yeldiz 410 last year and found it a nice gun but a bit light for clays as I tended to wiz through and have to stop the gun

 

I dont shoot live game just sporting and skeet

[matt fieldcrafter-uk]

Thank you for the response guys its good to know others enjoy the calibre too .

I have had my eye on a Remington 1100 for a while but the weight put me off , I hadn't thought of swinging through to fast with light guns .

Is yours 3" chambered ?

 

I don't shoot clays very often as I'm not very good at it and can't really afford to , but me my mrs and little lad have sessions throughing out plastic bottles or clays and we just don't enjoy it as much with out the .410 , but for me personally it's for hunting I enjoy most with the little gun .

I have thought constantly, latly that I would enjoy to try seriouse decoying with the .410 as alot of birds are clearly in range of the calibre .

And a member on here told me he used to shoot alot of pigeons with his .

Thank you again guys is love to here more about your guns and which carts you like and why !

[Guest cookoff013]

i used a 410 for the first time on clays 6 months ago, it was good but the cartridges were not ideal, 1/2oz #6

cook.

[robbiep]

I've only recently gone back to a .410, and it was a cheapo Webley/Scott bolt action, bought for fox dispatch in cage traps.

However, it has become my first choice if going for a mooch around the fields and hedgerows of an evening.

It's light, the cartridges are light and small (no bulging pockets with 10 shells), and it's very effective.

You need to pick your shots a lot more carefully with a .410 though, and the same is going to apply whether it is a £50 or £1000 gun. The cartridge doesn't magically become a lot more powerful out of a 686.

I'm shooting Eley fourlong, No 6 shot. I like fibrewads, and everything else on the market is plastic.

In terms of cartridge prices, I don't think they are too bad, really. The last 250 that I bought cost me £55, and I can get 1000 for £194

[bicykillgaz]

I love .410 just got rid of two, I'll eventually get a multichoke o/u when I can afford it.

 

I personally don't like full choked .410's as it limits you to 21/2" carts really, I had an anschutz bolt action 1/4 choke and use to decoy crows with fiocchi magnum 19g no6's and couldn't fault it, took some good 30+ yard shots and dropped them clean.

 

I don't think there that dear shot for shot its only if you start looking at weights you feel hard done by. Think I paid £60 for a slab of fiocchi.

[archiebald]

recently I bought an old .410 folding Belgian hammer gun and love it. its really light and looks like it could tell a few stories! today iv put 100 carts through it shooting cans and target cards at different ranges and dropped 3 pigeons with later on with it on their way to roost. one thing I did notice is that the shot seemed to drop over 30 yards and I had to aim above and cover the target with the barrel. I was using eley fourlong 2.5 inch carts is this normal?

[Underdog]

My two favourite .410's I owned was a Lincoln O/U and a Baikal O/U.

 

I opened them out to 1/2ish choke instead of the dreaded full!

 

I mostly used 1/2oz reloads of 7's shot.

 

I stuck to 8s ,7&1/2s and 7 in shot size because the pellet count helped down stuff better. Usually by head and neck strikes and by having a good dog, wings!

 

A long time ago I took a canada goose with one, just 1/2oz on a 25yd fast crossing bird, flicked through and dowed it stone dead. Checked the bird over and there was something like 9 No7 shot up the length of it's neck and head (IIRC).

 

I spent many a time decoying and I did no worse with well fitting .410 than anything else, in fact the lack of noise was a joy!

I went on at liest 3 pheasant days and bagged plenty! One gun was ill with a neck issue and contacted me to ask to borrow one of my .410s for the day and was amazed how well he did!

 

I love .410 and find it refreshing that it is still alive and doing well.

 

U.

[matt fieldcrafter-uk]

My two favourite .410's I owned was a Lincoln O/U and a Baikal O/U.

 

I opened them out to 1/2ish choke instead of the dreaded full!

 

I mostly used 1/2oz reloads of 7's shot.

 

I stuck to 8s ,7&1/2s and 7 in shot size because the pellet count helped down stuff better. Usually by head and neck strikes and by having a good dog, wings!

 

A long time ago I took a canada goose with one, just 1/2oz on a 25yd fast crossing bird, flicked through and dowed it stone dead. Checked the bird over and there was something like 9 No7 shot up the length of it's neck and head (IIRC).

 

I spent many a time decoying and I did no worse with well fitting .410 than anything else, in fact the lack of noise was a joy!

I went on at liest 3 pheasant days and bagged plenty! One gun was ill with a neck issue and contacted me to ask to borrow one of my .410s for the day and was amazed how well he did!

 

I love .410 and find it refreshing that it is still alive and doing well.

 

U.

This is the sort of post I'm looking for !

 

That's a great read and confirms my ideas that most .410 users just don't think to try it out on sporting days , or if they did are amazed how well they do !

As a teenager I had a friend who's family had farmed sheep on the belviour estate in liecstershire for a good few generations. .

The lad I was friends with Only shot a sxs English .410 ( god knows what it was worth )

I was always amazed how good he was with it against me with my 12 bore .

He had shot thousands of head of game with his gun , like you including geese duck and fox !!

 

Iv been looking into cartridges for .410 and I'm not sure how accurate the info was but it looks like there are some issues with there construction that hamper patterning .

For example .

 

The lack of crush zone on plast wads causing the lower portion of the shot to deform on ignition of the charge . This is believed to cause a lot of uneven pellets to scatter rather than fly true .

Now I know crush zoned are more common today but not in all carts .

The shot cup being to short for the high gram loads , meaning the top portion of the shot is in contact with the barrels causing more deformation of pellets . If this is true there could be as much as 1/4 of the payload is corrupted and not working to its potential . Given that max loads are 21 grams its a very small amount of shot and any waisted is just stupid .

I'm pretty sure this is now just anecdotal but I hear manufactures used to use very slow powder , then switched to fast powder to make shells inline with the sales pitch of higher velocity that they want us to believe will Improve everything !

When I continued to read on home loaders in the stages found a medium to slow powder in higher gram loads was the answer and performance improve greatly !

I believe Winchester fiochie and others now load slow/ medium powders .

I also read that the quality of shot is very important in .410 shells because there is so little of it and it pays to make sure it's good , so things like copper plated shot is what the upper end clay shots and serious hunters use in there gun to achieve the results they do !

 

 

How much of this you take on board and investigate is up to the individual and I think is based on how much of a geek you are ( I'm a geek )

 

I hope the .410 continues to gain in popularity and quality products keep coming as it offers well needed diversity .

 

 

 

 

As for 2.5" shells dropping in velocity over 30 yards the only time iv had that is with home loads that I developed to get a non silenced .410 as quiet as a hush power .

I did it but the range and power was only good enough for rats !!

[aister]

The gun that regret selling the most by far was a 28" side by side .410 choked 3/4 and full, I think it was a Rota Luciano. I loved that gun. It was so well balanced and it fitted me like a glove. I always used express 2 3/4" no6 as they seemed to kill just as well as the 3" shells. When using the gun a lot I could kill rabbits just as far away as I could with the 12, or put it like this, I had as many pricked rabbits that the dog had to run up with the 12 than I did with the .410. There was one outing with the .410 that I will always remember, I was out shooting rabbits on a bitterly cold frosty day when I spotted 3 mallard dropping in to a ditch up the valley. I hadn't had the gun that long and wondered whether I should bother stalking up to them or not. I thought I would give it a go, I got to within 25 yards of the ditch when up went the ducks along with the .410, the first shot took down 2 and the second shot bagged the the third, all dead. I was well chuffed. The best fun was shooting snipe with the .410, very challenging and I usually missed more than I connected with but a lot of fun.

[ChrisAsh]

My Remington is only 2.5 inch model, but pattered the Yeldiz with both 2.5 14 gram and 3 inch 19 gram using Lyevale and Gambore and found the Gamnebore 14 gram the best pattern,

 

Seems to be a opinion thet the 3 inch is overpowring the gun, 19gram probably better of with a 28 gauge gun

 

Just Cartridges seem to have quite a good selection of 410 cartridges for most occassions

[moorvale55]

I love the .410, it's a Hushpower Baikal, chambered for 3" cartridges and is fully choked. The first time it was fired it seemed loud for a silenced gun but after 30 or 40 rounds it became very quiet. It's ideal for sitting under a tree taking out rooks and crows, especially at this time of year when very young lambs are about as it doesn't spook the lambs. Some people regard them as a "pop gun", but I agree with one of the above authors, it has the same speed of shot and same range as a 12 bore, there's just less of it.

[Underdog]

Excellent post this.

 

I favoured slow powders in mine. I did ok with 3/4oz loads and H4227. It gave good patterns and speed.

H110 and A2400 were my other favs.

 

Winchester comp loads use to have a thin plastic wrap to protect the full charge of shot and I remember seeing the material advertised somewhere?

 

Thin card could do the same, muzzleloaders sometimes do the same in cylinder bored guns, done so myself and it does work.

It's the height of the shot colume thats the issue, the weight from accelleration on the bottom pellets is tremendous, that coupled with naturally higher operating pressure (giving the standing shot a serious kick up the back side)seriously squoshes them to the barrel wall.

 

All good fun.

U.

[welshwarrior]

I used and loved my folding 410 until it shoot loose I'm going to rebuild it in time. But I found a 1/4 or 1/2 choke best with shot size 7 or smaller. Larger shot like 5 patterned badly, 7 seemed to kill well on pigeon and rabbits as well as the odd wood cock for me.

 

I didn't find the 3" cartridges necessary a stuck to 2 1/2"

 

I still have a single barrel to teach children with 1/4 choke and 9s even novices can kill clays at sensible distances.

 

I've moved up to a 28 bore for me now but my orginal sbs folding 410 is still shouldered regularly and will be back in shooting condition soon.

[JohnfromUK]

I have an AyA boxlock non ejector s/s .410, chambered for 3" and choked 1/2 and full. I have occasionally shot clays with it, but never felt all that 'comfortable'. Its so light that I find it hard to get a steady swing. One problem I do find is that it leads terribly (usually use Eley Fourlong), especially just in front of the forcing cones making it a pig to get properly clean. Good little gun for squirrels, but otherwise, not a great favourite of mine. The pressures in a .410 are very high (compared to a 12) and I believe open chokes can be particularly cartridge sensitive to get a decent pattern. Most usually have quite a lot of choke ex-factory.

[decoy1]

i love using my little 410 it goes most places with me wen iam in the fields its a little bakel s/s 3" magnum

ive shot loads decoyed pigeons rabbits crows i use eley extra long

great little tool

[bigmanuk]

I have a good collection of guns and love my 410. Mine is an older investarm over and under but I love it. People under rate .410's, however if they took some time to have a proper go with one they would soon see how much fun they are.

 

I have had a go with the Yildiz .410 over and under and it is very good value for the money. i bought the 20gauge spzme in the end, but that was mainly because I fancied a 20gauge as didnt have one.

[matt fieldcrafter-uk]

There is a good number of us who like the .410 then !!

I think your shared enjoyment had made my discussion !

The problem is Remington 1100 or yildiz ??

[bicykillgaz]

If the 1100 is multi choke I'd get that but if not get the yildiz in multi choke. More open choked do wonders for the little .410

[ChrisAsh]

Sorry can't help with that as mine 1100 410 is about 25 years old and fixed skeet choke so don't know if newer guns are multi choke

 

Found this post yesterday about chokes, puts a new light on what people think of tighter chokes

shotgun_chokes_and_patterns_57650.pdf

Edited May 6, 2013 by ChrisAsh

[JohnfromUK]

The message is that those of us (and I am certainly in this group) who are 'average' shots should avoid too much choke - which will mainly benefit the minority who are well above average shots. I think this is a well known message. However, I believe very open barrels can also give very variable patterns. In a 12, I favour IC, 1/4 and 1/2. I'm not sufficiently knowledgable to be sure, but I suspect a similar, or slightly tighter choke would be best with .410?

[matt fieldcrafter-uk]

Thank you guys , weirdly I shoot tight choked guns by choice . The most open I use is 1/2 and that was a "wild " decision to go so open . I pretty much shoot 3/4 for everything and on my multi choke 3/4 and full .

Not as a show off thing I just shoot them better. . I find I have no belief of lethality with anything else and my eye is always drawn to longer shots I often don't pic close birds and wait for them to be heading away when I swing through when decoying .

I took my first snipe last year to a single shot at 25 yards after 4 other guns had missed both barrels .

It was only recently I learned that most favour a lot less choke than me .

 

Iv also always shot full on .410

 

I had not given much thought to it ?

 

I must admit if I went 1100 it was the full cooked guns I wanted .

 

Interesting article here

http://www.fourten.org.uk/TheTwoFacesOfThe410.pdf

Edited May 6, 2013 by matt . simmons

[silver pigeon 3]

A few months ago i bought a .410 for my 8 year old twins to use, its fine for them hitting slow incoming clays and the odd stationary target. I have recently been taking this gun when i have a mooch around our smallholding as the crows have been hammering the chicken feeders. In the last few weeks i have nailed a good number of crows and a few rabbits with it, it is a Baikal single barrel and is choked at 3/4. The cartridges i am using are SAGA 14g 7's and they certainly have a decent punch, dropping crows cleanly at 30 yards.

I wouldn't be swapping my 12 for one anytime soon but they certainly have found a place in my cabinet.