chrisjpainter Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Firstly, I'm glad this hasn't been closed yet! So far we've had A LOT of opinions and a lot of contradicting ones at that, but nothing has got nasty and personal, which is a nice turn up for the books! Secondly, I'm not sure whether I would want to live in a 'Christian country'. Speaking as a committed Christian, I can see the overwhelming temptation might be to say, roll out the bible as law and get the cattle prods on anyone who tries to leave a church. But the message of Christianity is about freedom. If you read it and study it, it teaches that God has given humanity the freedom to act as it chooses, but that freedom has consequences. The bible teaches that He has made himself known to us, through creation and his word but most importantly through Himself on earth as Jesus. What we do with that knowledge is up to us. We can choose to accept it, or we can choose to deny it, but the core is that we are FREE to make that choice for ourselves. For a state to impose a religion on its people is crying out for two things to happen: Firstly that religion, whether Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinudism or any other religion becomes in danger of being distorted to suit the political aspirations of the state. Secondly it creates a minority of hardliners who associate the state and the perceived false religion as one and the same thing. Thus religious conviction becomes politicised. This is exactly what has happened in a lot of Muslim countries, but it's not limited to Islam. In many ways, the Crusades and the 'conquests' of Central and South America are indicative of the results when the state gives religion a mandate far beyond its origins. Every true Christian should be appalled by the actions of the crusades - they were as barbaric and humane as anything we have seen in the modern era, and it is not true Christianity. And that sentiment is echoed by millions of Muslims world wide as their faith becomes political, not religious. The Muslim communities were so quick to make the distinction between Islam and 'Islamism'. The murder yesterday was symptomatic of Muslim teachings becoming distorted, politicised and then radicalised. You could tell that in what the perpetrator said. He danced around shouting that God is great, but in his tirade to the public, true religion was irrelevant; it was all about politics. The Bible is not a political manifesto and reading it closely, proves that. The Jews, expect the Messiah - the one who would save them and who Christians believe is Jesus - to be a political figure, so when he came preaching a message of forgiveness and not Anti-Roman rhetoric, they misunderstood him. Similarly, the New Testament writers never brought politics into their teachings. The writers wanted to show that Christianity was not about state law and politics; they claimed it was bigger than that, dealing with the fundamental problem of a fallen world, and a just but loving God. The Bible really does say this, that cannot be doubted. Whether it is right to make such claims is a matter for us all to decide on our own. I believe it to be true and make no apologies for that, but just as I have been given the freedom to choose to believe, so should anyone else be free to assert that it is all a pack of rubbish. If I was running the country, I would still want that decision to be yours. I'll happily debate the subjects of suffering in the world, or the bible's teachings on slavery or judgement, but the minute I want to force you to believe the same as me, it becomes a Religion of Me and not God. Turkey's getting itself in a mess because it enforces secularism too strongly - all religion is becoming suppressed. My opinion is that the government should stick to governing and let the synagogues, churches and mosques worry about religion. Likewise religion should stick to religion. Then we would be truly free to disagree, yet still be happy to live in one country. I'm for a beer & a bacon sarnie !! AMEN. Edited May 23, 2013 by chrisjpainter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Firstly, I'm glad this hasn't been closed yet! So far we've had A LOT of opinions and a lot of contradicting ones at that, but nothing has got nasty and personal, which is a nice turn up for the books! Secondly, I'm not sure whether I would want to live in a 'Christian country'. Speaking as a committed Christian, I can see the overwhelming temptation might be to say, roll out the bible as law and get the cattle prods on anyone who tries to leave a church. But the message of Christianity is about freedom. If you read it and study it, it teaches that God has given humanity the freedom to act as it chooses, but that freedom has consequences. The bible teaches that He has made himself known to us, through creation and his word but most importantly through Himself on earth as Jesus. What we do with that knowledge is up to us. We can choose to accept it, or we can choose to deny it, but the core is that we are FREE to make that choice for ourselves. For a state to impose a religion on its people is crying out for two things to happen: Firstly that religion, whether Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinudism or any other religion becomes in danger of being distorted to suit the political aspirations of the state. Secondly it creates a minority of hardliners who associate the state and the perceived false religion as one and the same thing. Thus religious conviction becomes politicised. This is exactly what has happened in a lot of Muslim countries, but it's not limited to Islam. In many ways, the Crusades and the 'conquests' of Central and South America are indicative of the results when the state gives religion a mandate far beyond its origins. Every true Christian should be appalled by the actions of the crusades - they were as barbaric and humane as anything we have seen in the modern era, and it is not true Christianity. And that sentiment is echoed by millions of Muslims world wide as their faith becomes political, not religious. The Muslim communities were so quick to make the distinction between Islam and 'Islamism'. The murder yesterday was symptomatic of Muslim teachings becoming distorted, politicised and then radicalised. You could tell that in what the perpetrator said. He danced around shouting that God is great, but in his tirade to the public, true religion was irrelevant; it was all about politics. The Bible is not a political manifesto and reading it closely, proves that. The Jews, expect the Messiah - the one who would save them and who Christians believe is Jesus - to be a political figure, so when he came preaching a message of forgiveness and not Anti-Roman rhetoric, they misunderstood him. Similarly, the New Testament writers never brought politics into their teachings. The writers wanted to show that Christianity was not about state law and politics; they claimed it was bigger than that, dealing with the fundamental problem of a fallen world, and a just but loving God. The Bible really does say this, that cannot be doubted. Whether it is right to make such claims is a matter for us all to decide on our own. I believe it to be true and make no apologies for that, but just as I have been given the freedom to choose to believe, so should anyone else be free to assert that it is all a pack of rubbish. If I was running the country, I would still want that decision to be yours. I'll happily debate the subjects of suffering in the world, or the bible's teachings on slavery or judgement, but the minute I want to force you to believe the same as me, it becomes a Religion of Me and God. Turkey's getting itself in a mess because it enforces secularism too strongly - all religion is becoming suppressed. My opinion is that the government should stick to governing and let the synagogues, churches and mosques worry about religion. Likewise religion should stick to religion. Then we would be truly free to disagree, yet still be happy to live in one country. AMEN. yeah very well said i haveno problem with people who go to church and know a good few church goers and also a vicar very well they all accept my belief that to me there can't be a supreme being as i accept their right to their own opinion on the matter. one thing that strikes a cord for me with you post about all religions being suppressed is the gay marriage toss that the government are wasting so much time on how can they force a church to allow gay marriage when its against that religions beliefs?? are they going to enforce this with the muslims as well as the christians? be an interesting one for debate. i am also impressed this hasnt descended into a egotistical custard pie fight Edited May 23, 2013 by beeredup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitey10765666 Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 If he shows me a sign i will believe him, seeing that that is never going to happen i will only believe in what i can see hear smell touch etc, there's a lot of Christians in my family and boy what a bunch of hypocrites.seen the light born again muppets, kill you as good as look at you some of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikky Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 there is no god or gods,each to is own......religion is the biggest cause of conflict on the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Funker Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 i can not belive in this day and age that anyone in the western world can belive there is a god. religion was started many years ago,to keep the masses in line and make the churches rich now we have science that tells us where we all came from evolution. i belive in no high and mighty,wont go in a church of any sort,even for a wedding or funeral,dont want any part in it. if every one thought the same as that,world would be a better place for sure but thats just my view. +1 You saved me the trouble of typing it. Religion = Control. It never ceases to amaze me that sensible people continue to believe in a thousands of years old fairy tale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 there is no god or gods,each to is own......religion is the biggest cause of conflict on the planet. Do be careful... To say 'There is no God' means you have proof. Whilst I am atheist, I can't go around chanting that it's a fact that there's no higher being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unapalomablanca Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) There's a running theme in many threads discussing how the country is being 'over-run by muslims'. The results of a survey were published recently (I can't find a link) which showed that 10% of those under 20 in the UK identified as muslims, yet the population of Christians ageing and reducing. Those who are calling for something to be done to defend "Our Christian country", when was the last time you went to church? What do you _really_ know about the message of Christianity? Serious question. Nial. you dont have to be a christian to be angry at the destruction of your country. Some people just want to be amongst people, with the same mindset and values. Edited May 23, 2013 by unapalomablanca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Thanks for some considered replies guys. Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikky Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Do be careful... To say 'There is no God' means you have proof. Whilst I am atheist, I can't go around chanting that it's a fact that there's no higher being. atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary ... www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. a•the•ist (ˈeɪ θi ɪst) n. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being. you cant be an athiest then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary ... www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. a•the•ist (ˈeɪ θi ɪst) n. a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being. you cant be an athiest then I can deny and disbelieve the existence, but you or I cannot PROVE that there isn't a higher being. You are not reading what I am writing. If you say that you know there isn't a God, you might as well join the other side who say that God exists... There's no 100% justifying proof on either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 If he shows me a sign i will believe him, seeing that that is never going to happen i will only believe in what i can see hear smell touch etc,... Do you believe in love and hate? Neither is detectable to the senses. Do you believe there was a war with Napoleon? If you do you relied on a book or other information that told you what happened and faith in that book means to you that it happened, you will also have an idea based on the information in that book of who Napoleon was, his brilliance on the battlefield. Same goes for the Bible, Jesus was foretold, lived, died and rose again, verified not just by a single book (really 66 books/texts) but eye witnesses and other reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I can deny and disbelieve the existence, but you or I cannot PROVE that there isn't a higher being. You are not reading what I am writing. If you say that you know there isn't a God, you might as well join the other side who say that God exists... There's no 100% justifying proof on either side. Then you are agnostic Billy, not atheist. atheism requires no proof nor does faith.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 you dont have to be a christian to be angry at the destruction of your country. Some people just want to be amongst people, with the same mindset and values. Hear, Hear, ATB Flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillfrbs Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 That's because you are unable debate or speculate a theory or a possibility ? come on give us the answer mankind & science has been looking for ? . what you don't have it . Blast & dam ! you ain't got ether ! & you thought you were smart ! dinosaurs rulled the earth millions of years before any so say god and mankind ,science has told us this FACT not religeon which is FICTION .why do you think there are so many different so say gods,because back in the start of time people did not travel the world like today.and belived in what was preached to by there peers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) i must admit in these modern times i am surprised so many intelligent adults still go for the god story im not saying theres no truths in the bible but i thinks its more a history of man more than anything else, Edited May 24, 2013 by overandunder2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 i must admit in these modern times i am surprised so many intelligent adults still go for the god story, It's called having faith. I think the analogy that Henry makes with love is a good one. It's hard for love to be scientifically proven and therefore are you saying that an inteligent person shouldn't feel love? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 TBH i don't, Love and hate are just two made up words that have been used to identify what are real biological and chemical reactions in the body to certain stimulus, in other languages they will be called different things but you can do scientific objective tests on hormone levels etc. to see that the reactions within the body are real. Having faith is very subjective and the existence of a supreme being cant be proved, not until the aliens come anyway and zap us all away. Arguing that something is real just because of witnesses and books means that you should also believe in the loch ness, ghosts, the dandy and the beano. That being said you have to respect the individuals right to believe in what ever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glb8686 Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I'd love to know how many parents have discouraged their child from his/her imaginary friend to then goto church on Sunday and talk to their own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 I'd love to know how many parents have discouraged their child from his/her imaginary friend to then goto church on Sunday and talk to their own lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 dinosaurs rulled the earth millions of years before any so say god and mankind ,science has told us this FACT not religeon which is FICTION . Science cannot prove or disprove God, fact. TBH i don't, Love and hate are just two made up words that have been used to identify what are real biological and chemical reactions in the body to certain stimulus, in other languages they will be called different things but you can do scientific objective tests on hormone levels etc. to see that the reactions within the body are real. If it is only biological and relies on chemicals, why do so many people still feel that they have lost something so tangible many decades later? Sex, yes I can understand that as a biological/chemical process, not love. Arguing that something is real just because of witnesses and books means that you should also believe in the loch ness, ghosts, the dandy and the beano. Just being pedantic, apart from people dressed in a suit or the statue in Dundee, no-one has seen Desperate Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 It's called having faith. I think the analogy that Henry makes with love is a good one. It's hard for love to be scientifically proven and therefore are you saying that an inteligent person shouldn't feel love? nope of course intelligent people feel love and i wouldnt dispute that and to some faith is very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oli Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 If it is only biological and relies on chemicals, why do so many people still feel that they have lost something so tangible many decades later? Sex, yes I can understand that as a biological/chemical process, not love. - Memories are also just biochemical/electrical reactions within body, all our feelings are. Just being pedantic, apart from people dressed in a suit or the statue in Dundee, no-one has seen Desperate Dan. - But people see god all the time do they? By calling me a pedant arent you now just doing what you criticise people on here for all the time, not considering their pov and being a little bit insulting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Good God I thought this post would get pinned last night ! Anyway atheism is a dead end . Edited May 24, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Good God I thought this post would get pinned last night ! Anyway atheism is a dead end . Absolutely Pole Star.. so get out there and enjoy your one shot, chance in a billion existence and stop worrying about what's next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Absolutely Pole Star.. so get out there and enjoy your one shot, chance in a billion existence and stop worrying about what's next! I don't worry about it mate I've lived an exciting life & nearly been killed more than once & even had my last rites at the age of 23 ! & I for one don't believe its the end ! & who knows it might just be a fantastic journey other than a last journey in a bloody dead meat van ! Got some great friends on the other side & it will be good to em again . ps I hope I can still have a beer & a bacon sarnie when I get there ! Edited May 24, 2013 by Pole Star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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