Beaters Pay and HMRC

[Underdog]

No sure quite what you mean but full time employees can't do extra casual work for the same employer and receive a cash untaxed payment for beating. Any payment to them for beating would have to be included along with their usual pay and dealt with by PAYE.

yes...thats what i thought the text was emphasising. Making a distinction between the two types of employees.

It is sad that hmrc is cornering by deducting at source a low wage without any facility for claiming any expenses. That is why it makes no logic to me at all. To make such a deduction at source of pay should only apply on min nation wage amounts...supported in the text somewhat by LEL. Seems contradictory.

 

U.

[Underdog]

I have now read the hmrc page in full and have mis understood it partly.

I still however believe in my circumstances described earlier I should not be given a deduction in beaters pay by the estate.

 

It is all academic as I refuse to be under this burden for 20 quid.

I would rather do it for nowt than be subject to this nonsense.

Thanks for your patience.

 

U.

[ColinF]

 

I have now read the hmrc page in full and have mis understood it partly.

I still however believe in my circumstances described earlier I should not be given a deduction in beaters pay by the estate.

 

It is all academic as I refuse to be under this burden for 20 quid.

I would rather do it for nowt than be subject to this nonsense.

Thanks for your patience.

 

U.

 

It doesn't matter if the shoot deduct tax or not, the payment is still taxable. They either deduct tax and pay it for you, or you pay it yourself later, either way you will still pay the same amount of tax

[PhilR]

Bet you wish you'd never started this thread now Colin!

[Underdog]

Hmm..so it appears I owe in excess of twenty years tax!

 

How do you and stupid fair in that reguard? Been paying up have we?

 

U.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Underdog

[PhilR]

Hmm..so it appears I owe in excess of twenty years tax!

 

How do you and stupid fair in that reguard? Been paying up have we?

 

U.

I don't think it's that bad the tax man only goes back seven years IIRC. Still he's not going to know, unless you tell him, is he?

[AlistairB]

Hmm..so it appears I owe in excess of twenty years tax!

 

How do you and stupid fair in that reguard? Been paying up have we?

 

U.

Not sure about Phil, but 'stupid' doesn't get paid for beating, he does it because he enjoys it.

[Underdog]

Not sure about Phil, but 'stupid' doesn't get paid for beating, he does it because he enjoys it.

lol...very good.

I bow in the presence of super intelligent wise and knowledgable men.

Can I change my name.....fancy Baldrik!

[al4x]

I don't think it's that bad the tax man only goes back seven years IIRC. Still he's not going to know, unless you tell him, is he?

 

Ultimately that is the main thing and if he finds out then you will get a bill, the thing is the tax office is getting smaller and are they going to spend time looking at people owing them a few hundred for the year and its highly unlikely. It will be interesting as we have some estates locally letting people submit false ni numbers and dodgy addresses which I would imagine is probably far worse than simply not declaring.

[norfolk dumpling]

One very large shoot in Sth Norfolk run by a multi-millionaire has said they want nothing to do with the RTI system and will pay any penalty when it arrives. Ok but my worry (I'm not involved) is that if and when just one beater submits their return this could have a knock on effect for the rest of us.

[chesterse]

Instead of beaters getting involved in declaring their names, ni numbers and paying tax, would it be possible for a large commercial shoot to pay the tax for them and keep the beater's pay the same and at the same time maintain their anonymity

For example if the shoot normally have 10 beaters per shoot, being paid £25 each. The shoot would then pay say a token 20% tax for each beater, ie £5 for each beater = £50 per shoot.

Would this not be a simple way around all this cr*p?

[CharlieT]

Such an arrangement can indeed be done.

[norfolk dumpling]

Wasn't this how a past arrangement between HMRC and CLA worked? This was my understanding.

[r1steele]

Instead of beaters getting involved in declaring their names, ni numbers and paying tax, would it be possible for a large commercial shoot to pay the tax for them and keep the beater's pay the same and at the same time maintain their anonymity

For example if the shoot normally have 10 beaters per shoot, being paid £25 each. The shoot would then pay say a token 20% tax for each beater, ie £5 for each beater = £50 per shoot.

Would this not be a simple way around all this cr*p?

I know of at least 1 shoot that is going to be doing it in a similar way. Say the beaters were getting £20 per day last year and this year they will be effectively getting a pay rise of a few quid, then getting it deducted as tax from their pay packet, then they end up taking home £20.

[mark g]

Instead of beaters getting involved in declaring their names, ni numbers and paying tax, would it be possible for a large commercial shoot to pay the tax for them and keep the beater's pay the same and at the same time maintain their anonymity

For example if the shoot normally have 10 beaters per shoot, being paid £25 each. The shoot would then pay say a token 20% tax for each beater, ie £5 for each beater = £50 per shoot.

Would this not be a simple way around all this cr*p?

its not really about maintaining anonymity and the tax amounts involved are fairly small its the bookwork and hassle shoots and beaters would most like to avoid,

[chesterse]

 

 

its not really about maintaining anonymity and the tax amounts involved are fairly small its the bookwork and hassle shoots and beaters would most like to avoid,

By maintaining anonymity that's how beater's avoid it! Agreed we don't need the hassle.

[Underdog]

Just heard of two Welsh shoots taking beaters details and paying in full and the rest is up to the beater. No deductions at source...no diddly squat.

This is how I believe it should be and any other way is unreasonable and presumptous.

 

U.

[norfolk dumpling]

One of my beating jobs doing same ie no names no pack drill and cash. Tight-bottomed farmer however who hasn't increased rate for 10yrs. He probably won't this year either knowing what is going on elsewhere.

 

I just worry this will be quite popular and HMRC may just spot a hole in their numbers.

[ColinF]

 

Just heard of two Welsh shoots taking beaters details and paying in full and the rest is up to the beater. No deductions at source...no diddly squat.

This is how I believe it should be and any other way is unreasonable and presumptous.

 

U.

 

Shoots are entitled to treat payments to beaters this way, per the original CLA/HMRC agreement. It's obviously easier for the shoot, but the beater has to declare the income.

 

For shoots required to make RTI submissions, It would be much easier for beaters if the shoot ran a payroll and deducted tax at source, as the beater wouldn't need to complete an annual Tax return.

 

The only problem with the type of arrangement that CharlieT has, is that beaters who are non tax payers have no way of reclaiming the tax paid. As there are quite a lot of beaters who are retired, this could be an issue for some shoots.

[woody walloper]

if they charge you tax they have to allow you expenses ,every one claim for a jacket pair of wellies fuel for journey to and from shoot they would soon realise that they are on to a loser

[ColinF]

 

if they charge you tax they have to allow you expenses ,every one claim for a jacket pair of wellies fuel for journey to and from shoot they would soon realise that they are on to a loser

HMRC won't allow you to claim for any of the above against your beating income. It's not just beaters, it's the same for all employees.

Edited October 16, 2013 by ColinF

[norfolk dumpling]

The latest government data on unemployment showed a marked reduction with more doing p/t jobs - is this us and any other casual workers?? I'm now doing 2 taxed p/t jobs plus paying tax on my final salary pension. I should get a medal surely.

The latest government data on unemployment showed a marked reduction with more doing p/t jobs - is this us and any other casual workers?? I'm now doing 2 taxed p/t jobs plus paying tax on my final salary pension. I should get a medal surely.

[ColinF]

The latest government data on unemployment showed a marked reduction with more doing p/t jobs - is this us and any other casual workers?? I'm now doing 2 taxed p/t jobs plus paying tax on my final salary pension. I should get a medal surely.

The latest government data on unemployment showed a marked reduction with more doing p/t jobs - is this us and any other casual workers?? I'm now doing 2 taxed p/t jobs plus paying tax on my final salary pension. I should get a medal surely.

 

Why are you so surprised that you need to pay tax on your income?

[kitchrat]

This is a potential minefield!!! If beating ever gets classed as employment, it's game over. Minimum wage (£6+/hour), safety glasses, boots & hats, ear protection, hi-viz jackets, no barbed wire fences, all trip hazards in woods to be marked!!!!!

I could go on and on about how H&S has ruined many a way of making a living.

All because the big shoots try to get tax relief on beaters expenses......

[Davyo]

If your shoot does not op payroll or paye, you can call HMRC to get any additional income under £2500 included in your tax code providing you have an existing emp or pension.This means you can keep your beaters pay as HMRC will put a restriction in your personal allowance to collect the tax due on the beating pay through your emp or pension.However if you are fortunate to rec more than £2500 in addition income from beating you will then meet SA criteria and need to complete self assessment tax returns.Hope this makes sense.Basically you need to look at it as additional income no matter where it comes from.The same rules apply for any addition income from emp that does not opperate paye.Remember your personal allowance is 9440 for 13/14.People have also posted regardng claiming expenses, to do this you would have to register as a self employed beater and invoice the shoot for your services.Then you could offset any allowable expense against your income.Regarding allowable expenses and what is defined as allowable can get quite technical however HMRC have techs who can advise.

Before anyone asks,yes I do work for HMRC,the advise I am giving is general advise and within the public domain so within HMRC guidlines.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Davyo