Do 20 Bores

[pavman]

Most of the guns on the syndicate I shoot have chosen to change to 20 Bores over the last 2 years. The reason being most of the gents are a little on the mature side and the lighter gun suits them better on some of the long walk ups.

 

However I have noted we seem to be getting more and more runners as opposed to clean kills, so much so that last sat we had to drop a drive as we had spent some time on the last two looking for pricked birds!

 

Now I am well aware that 28grms of well placed shot will drop all but a grizzly bear, but bearing in mind most of us are at best an average game shot, I prefer to take advantage of a little extra punch packed by 32 grms of Supreme Game in a 12 bore. I just wondered what the PW panel of experts think.

[Baldrick]

In all honesty, I see a lot more runners resulting from 12-bores used badly by Guns who can't admit that they're dismal, out-of-practise shots, than to 20-bores wielded by people using correctly fitting guns with a well-matched cartridge.

 

I use both a 12 and a 20, depending on what's required, but only when facing the very highest pheasants have I thought that a 12 with 28g+ loads would be needed.

[Cranfield]

Its my opinion that regular 12 gauge shooters who normally use 30-32gms No6 shot , then change to 20 gauge using 26-28gms No 6 shot, should adjust their range expectations accordingly.

There will be a lot less pellets in the pattern at 35 yards, with the smaller load cartridge.

 

There is also the matter of "swing", it does take some adjustment to the shooting action, to take account of the lighter(and sometimes shorter) barrels of the 20 gauge.

 

Some time spent on the clay grounds could help out in both situations.

 

As a side issue.

A lot of the "few times a year" shooters that seem to attend some driven game shoots, generally shoot very badly, mainly because they have only ever shot "a few times a year".

Not for them the clay ground practise, or some tuition, they are quite happy missing.

Fortunately, thats what they do ...miss, rarely do they get close enough to the bird to wound.

[Baldrick]

In all fairness most of the Shots I know that use a 20 for driven shooting, shoot all year round to keep their skill maintained. But there seems to be a weird sub-species of Gun that turns up at a shoot wielding a 20, or smaller calibre, evidently trying to make a point that he finds a 12-bore too easy, and then proceeds to shoot like a blind man.

[Dunkield]

I think the science of it says that a 20 bore has a narrower shot string, so you tend to either kill it cleanly or miss it completely

[Noddy without Bigears]

I'm a great believer in having as much lead in the air as possible, years gone by I used to shoot 32grm Fiocchi trap carts they were really hard hitting and probably accounted for a fair few clays which would have been missed by lighter loads. Out in the field I would always use 32grm game loads of various brands, on occassions when funds allowed 36grm loads. I grew up shooting where the 12 bore was considered the only gun to use, 20 bores were considered "ladies and childrens" guns (oops said something now ). But if you can't walk round a field carrying an extra 1.1/2 lbs of weight maybe they should take up scrabble.

[Highlander]

Most of the guns on the syndicate I shoot have chosen to change to 20 Bores over the last 2 years. The reason being most of the gents are a little on the mature side and the lighter gun suits them better on some of the long walk ups.

 

Two reasons...fashion and old farts. Firstly it's now almost de rigeur to own a 20 bore, BORE being the operative word here 'cause don't they like to talk about it The difference in weight has next to nothing to do with it especially for a man unless of course he's really a girlie

 

Secondly many pheasant shooters are once a year merchants who in most instances couldn't hit a barn if they were stood inside it. How many do you know who've never had a lesson or who would even contemplate the need for one? Yet they pick up a gun a few times a year and think they can shoot (maybe the odd exceptional shot can) when in reality they are abysmal shots and probably always have been. trouble is they've never acknowledged it and never will only now they can blame old age, bad eyesight, failing joints, slow reactions any damn thing bar the fact that they can't shoot! So what do they do...buy a 20 bore and then wonder why even more birds get away or worse. *****!

[Baldrick]

Ah, the good old "it's a kid's gun" willy-waving contest..... Noddy, if you are intent on using as much lead as possible, why limit yourself to 36g cartridges when you could use 50g+ loads? Or perhaps a 105mm Light Gun firing airburst may be the tool for those really taxing birds?

 

Stuart, you have a point, the margin for error is much reduced using a 20 with 25g loads. The need to make sure each shot with a 20 counts really pays off when I pick up my 12-bore though.

[Noddy without Bigears]

I totally agree with Highlander, if I could find a nice double barrel 8 bore which I could actually hold and fire both barrels while remaining standing, that would be my choice every time.

 

Thank you for your comments Baldrick but it is not a swipe anybody using 20 or lesser bores, it's just when I started shooting you did not consider anything but a 12 bore. With regards to having "as much lead in the air as possible" I'm a great believer in killing my quarry outright, I do not consider a winged bird a satisfactory shot and if an extra 4-6grms makes the differenece between a clean kill and a wounded bird I will take the extra grammes everytime.

[Whitebridges]

Quite a few people I know use 20 bores and there is only one who is an expert shot with one. He probably shoots driven pheasant 30 times a year and is an AA class shot. Generally mortals start off with a normal 20 bore load, realise it's limitations and start using 28g plus loads. Whats the point in that?

I've tried several different 20's and frankly I don't like them. For walked up pheasants 32 g of fives is a good load as you are often shooting them up the **** and the vital organ area is small. For normal driven pheasants 30g 7's or 6's is a good load. 20's do not knock 'em over like a 12 bore IMHO.

I don't want to get in to walked up hares really as this is off topic but I would ask anyone who is an average shot to use nothing less than 34g 4's with a bit of choke and not to take long shots. If you've heard a hare scream you will know what I mean. The brown hare is a big animal and can take a lot of shot.

[Baldrick]

No offence taken, Noddy, I just started out using a 20 when I was actually a nipper, and always shot blindingly well with it. So I never saw the point in following the flock that all used 12-bores for the sake of it. I use a 12 for some things like wildfowling, high pheasant and anywhere that real punch is needed, but I still maintain that a 20 is no less capable than a 12 in *most* situations, if you can exploit it.

 

Whitebridges, you're right, putting even a 28g load through a 5lb 20-bore starts to make you question the merits of a 12-bore. Manufacturers like Hull and Eley make 32g 20-bore loads, which are really unpleasant.

 

I'd never dream of shooting a hare (full stop) with a 20. If it had to be done with a 12, I would use Noddy's logic and use enough gun. Or a rifle.

[Cranfield]

I think the science of it says that a 20 bore has a narrower shot string, so you tend to either kill it cleanly or miss it completely

 

Apparently, if a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge both fired 28gms of No6 shot though 1/4 chokes, the patterns would be almost identical.

 

I read that somewhere many moons ago, when researching for a 12gauge -v- 20 gauge thread.

[Baldrick]

That's reassuring, Cranfield. Good stuff.

[mossy835]

i use 20 bore gauge reducers.in my 12 gauge they are very good i can hit pigeons over the top of the woods,saves me buying a 20 bore.

[lurcherboy]

I think Cranfield nailed this one

 

 

 

LB

[njc110381]

If you hit the bird properly, it will come down cleanly with most calibres of gun I would have thought. Some shots manage to hit game well with a 28 bore for all but the highest birds

[crowstopper]

I also find that most people i know who shoot 20's can shoot as well as people who use 12's, in fact i know a chap who never shoots anything bigger then a 20. he normaly shoots a 28 and he kills things cleanly and at good distance he shoots a lot better then a lot of other people i know. But you do of course get the bloke who shoots it 2 be different, mind you he normally says the sun was in his eyes whenever he has a shot. I think that a 20 in the hands of someone who can use it is just as effective as someone who is a good shot with a 12. but you will always get the guy who can not hit a barn door with it.

 

I'm a great believer in having as much lead in the air as possible, years gone by I used to shoot 32grm Fiocchi trap carts they were really hard hitting and probably accounted for a fair few clays which would have been missed by lighter loads. Out in the field I would always use 32grm game loads of various brands, on occassions when funds allowed 36grm loads.

 

I shoot a 12 most of the time noddy but reading your posts on 36g loads seems a little ott, 32 is a max i would say for game. Unless you want the bird turned into a puff of feathers and a tescos microwave ready meal. But i do agree with what you say in clean kills thats why i always buy the best ammo i can as i respect my quarry and feel its worth the extra few penny's a shot.

 

crow

[Noddy without Bigears]

36grms save me the trouble of gutting & plucking them, you just walk round a pick up the scraps of meat which has been left.

 

But I agree, they are a little OTT

[pavman]

If you hit the bird properly, it will come down cleanly with most calibres of gun I would have thought. Some shots manage to hit game well with a 28 bore for all but the highest birds

 

 

Chaps

 

as we all know a head shot will do the biz in just about any load, however there seems to be a growing fashion for 20 bores and many are taken up by folk who dont shoot particularly well with a 12, they then shoot lighter loads and as a result may reduce the chance of a clean kill and that results in more runners and wounded birds........not nice

 

At normal ranges I agree a 20 will do the job, but there is always a temptation for a long shot and a chance wounded bird as seen by me quite often this year. Its a hard one to bring up with the guys I guess

[Baldrick]

Pav, if I was going to offer constructive criticism to your fellow (somewhat incompetent) Guns, I'd steer them more towards shooting lessons and regular practise, rather than changing to a 12-bore.

 

I can never see the point in accepting invitations to shoot, or paying for my own, if I don't keep my eye in throughout the year. Being a **** shot just detracts from the day's enjoyment, and it is so easily remedied whether it's through changing to a punchier gun/cartridge or tuition.

[al4x]

We get it on our shoot and mostly its people getting older who like the lighter gun and think they swing it better etc and as has been mentioned they definitely like to talk about it. Personally most of them aren't any better if you give them a 12 bore so I don't think 4 grams of lead makes that much difference in the killling stakes.

On the other hand we've got a guy who can shoot who often shoots for fun with a .410 and 28b and very very rarely misses. If the shots in the right place it does the job. Looking at the pattern difference between guns a bigger pattern isn't necessarily better. Skeet chokes for pheasants is not on in my book so if you're shooting reasonably tight chokes then there is little difference between the 12 and the 20 on your average game shoot IMHO

[pavman]

Pav, if I was going to offer constructive criticism to your fellow (somewhat incompetent) Guns, I'd steer them more towards shooting lessons and regular practise, rather than changing to a 12-bore.

 

I can never see the point in accepting invitations to shoot, or paying for my own, if I don't keep my eye in throughout the year. Being a **** shot just detracts from the day's enjoyment, and it is so easily remedied whether it's through changing to a punchier gun/cartridge or tuition.

 

Balders

 

I agree with you, but without screwing a friendship or creating an atmosphere just how do you tell a gent he needs lessons??? its not like I am a super game shot myself like most I guess I am average despite being cross eye dominate. The shoot captain has dropped to a 20 and misses a fair few, most of what i hit is a clean kill.

 

I put in a little game keeping and get an extra day for my efforts, its a small shoot 1/2 walk 1/2 stand we put down 800 birds and get around 40 to 60 a day over 8 days, all the guys are good company and there is little or no chance of getting in on another shoot so its a tricky one not to upset the apple cart.

 

I just wondered what you guys thought of the comparison to 12 and 20 and runners and if we believe they are linked or not,

[ChrisNicholls]

I agree with you, but without screwing a friendship or creating an atmosphere just how do you tell a gent he needs lessons?

 

Quite simply, you say nothing. A shut mouth gathers no foot.

 

I visit a few different shoots in the coarse of a normal game season and have noticed the increase in the use of 20 bores. They get just as many runners as the 12 bore users in my observations.

[Baldrick]

Pav, unless a glaring opportunity for constructive and light-hearted criticism arises, for the sake of that extra day and general harmony, I'd side with Chris and recommend keeping quiet, no matter how strong the urge to pipe up. If said opportunity does arise, just ask if they've thought about clay sessions and or tuition, in order to maximise their enjoyment on the day?

 

How about organising regular clay shoots to keep everyone's eye in outside of the season, perhaps at a ground where there is a pattern plate? You could then iron out any fundamental gun fit issues? If money allowed, have a simulated game day?

 

I don't think 12 and 20s are linked re runners. It's the man behind the gun, rather than the gun itself. Almost all of the birds pricked on our shoot this last weekend fell to badly-fitting 12s, shot badly by obstinate and cack-handed Guns.

[pavman]

How about organising regular clay shoots to keep everyone's eye in outside of the season, perhaps at a ground where there is a pattern plate? You could then iron out any fundamental gun fit issues? If money allowed, have a simulated game day?

 

I don't think 12 and 20s are linked re runners. It's the man behind the gun, rather than the gun itself. Almost all of the birds pricked on our shoot this last weekend fell to badly-fitting 12s, shot badly by obstinate and cack-handed Guns.

 

a good point, interesting how many guns dont even have a fit, I often ask and am never surprised at the answer. My local smithy charges just £45 to bend a stock, i need 5/16 cast on in addition to an easy hit bead to compensate for the left eye dominance and right handed gun, without the fit and bead I really would struggle, seems some folk will spoil the ship for a penny of tar!