Cost of Aircraft Carriers now up to £6.2bn

[keg]

Reading the papers today, the cost of the two new carriers has gone from £3.6bn at signing of the contract to £6.2bn now. Some are claiming that part of the increase is because VAT wasn't budgeted for.

 

If this is the case then the negociators on both sides need investigating. BAE should have pointed out that the quotes were ex VAT and whoever signed at the MOD should have asked. That's assuming the story is true.

 

If not what excuse can BAE provide?

[Lord Geordie]

Whisky costs more than Ale!

[keg]

This is true. On saying that, on investigating further, as we have changed the type of aircraft we plan to use on the carriers, a precision lamding system has been ordered for each carrier at £200million per vessel.

 

That explains a small part of the increase but not the rest!

Edited November 10, 2013 by keg

[bruno22rf]

I cannot help but wonder what "new" type of aircraft we are going to use? With a fair amount of RAF pilots being made redundant and ever increasing cuts in spending I can imagine the service raiding museums for obsolete aircraft-wait a minute-they have done that already. Air superiority gliders perhaps.....

[evo]

lets be honest ,,do we need them

 

a lot of money for something that will sink in seconds (hope not)

 

we could build a few of them if we didn,t keep giving money away to other countries and I thought the ship building is dying

 

cammell lairds has virtually stopped in the Wirral, as far as I know they only service ships now not build them,, a total shame

 

Evo

[station]

Whisky costs more than Ale!

Oh, how poignant an answer - very good !

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I cannot help but wonder what "new" type of aircraft we are going to use? With a fair amount of RAF pilots being made redundant and ever increasing cuts in spending I can imagine the service raiding museums for obsolete aircraft-wait a minute-they have done that already. Air superiority gliders perhaps.....

 

 

F35 will be entering Sqn service in 2016 at RAF Marham.

[Dekers]

Reading the papers today, the cost of the two new carriers has gone from £3.6bn at signing of the contract to £6.2bn now. Some are claiming that part of the increase is because VAT wasn't budgeted for.

 

If this is the case then the negociators on both sides need investigating. BAE should have pointed out that the quotes were ex VAT and whoever signed at the MOD should have asked. That's assuming the story is true.

 

If not what excuse can BAE provide?

 

I suspect the contract will run to several hundred, if not thousands of pages. The contract will have been written and scrutinised by some of the best legal brains in the country, on both sides, and I suspect the final cost will be a chunk more than £6.2bn.

 

History tells us clearly there are very few Government contracts that come in on budget, with them commonly being out by 200-300%, a final figure of £10bn would not surprise me.

[Chris Bb]

To win a Government contract like this you have to come in cheap at the initial bid. The trick is to include caveats whereby any change in the specification results in an increase to the price. Complicated things like ships will always evolve as the design is refined, thus you just keep upping the price.

 

It's all a huge game, paid for by us.

 

From experience, if you do agree a fixed price contract with BAE they are bloody expensive.

[huntsman]

I can tell you why

The plans for the carriers have been changed so many times you would not believe

I personally know one of the engineers on the project 1 section being built at camel laird and the other sections at Rosyth or Govan ship yards

during which time the plans had been changed,the pipe work installed the ships section ready to go,suddenly its all changed.

 

The sections already to leave the yard, had to be cut up and cut out to install new steel reinforcing,this should have been to be installed at the initial design and build stage , pipework ripped out and reinstalled,this went on more than 3 or 4 times

the engineers were tearing their hair out, BAE could not make up there minds to the final drawings.

 

so no wonder the bill went through the roof

Edited November 12, 2013 by huntsman

[bruno22rf]

Mmmmmmm-the "new" F35 eh? First flown in 2006 and there are serious concerns over its small weapons capability and reliability not to mention the fact that it is up to the Americans just how stealthy our version is-they have been clear in stating that it will not be built to the same spec as the aircraft they will use (if, in fact, they use them-with the high cost and limited ability of the F35 suggestions are already floating around that maintaining the current fleet of F16/18's would be a far wiser, and cost effective, way to go) .The development costs on this AC are spiralling and I can see that many of its investors (and many countries are involved) will be getting worried about now-I certainly would not want to be building a Ship designed specifically for the plane

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Mmmmmmm-the "new" F35 eh? First flown in 2006 and there are serious concerns over its small weapons capability and reliability not to mention the fact that it is up to the Americans just how stealthy our version is-they have been clear in stating that it will not be built to the same spec as the aircraft they will use (if, in fact, they use them-with the high cost and limited ability of the F35 suggestions are already floating around that maintaining the current fleet of F16/18's would be a far wiser, and cost effective, way to go) .The development costs on this AC are spiralling and I can see that many of its investors (and many countries are involved) will be getting worried about now-I certainly would not want to be building a Ship designed specifically for the plane

 

 

The USNavy flies very few F16s and then only from ground bases in the Aggressor role!

 

Their F18s are rather long in the tooth apart from the recently built G models which are not designed for the same primary role as the F35s we are getting.

 

We fly neither!

[Grayson]

Should of got one from Ikea, would of cost couple of £100 and comes with an allen key.

[clakk]

arent there some fairy swordfish knocking about in private hands we could use say 3 per carrier sounds about right for the goverments budget n ideas

[ferguson_tom]

Couldn't care less to be honest, the people doing the work are mainly british people on british soil and keeping a lot of people in jobs. More money is wasted every year by the government on less important things such as supporting other countries with aid who have their own space programs.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

arent there some fairy swordfish knocking about in private hands we could use say 3 per carrier sounds about right for the goverments budget n ideas

 

 

No!

[bruno22rf]

TIGHTCHOKE-I did not say that WE flew either AC-which is a shame because they are both world class weapons platforms. My reference was intended to underline the fact that the main customer for the F35 and the nation largely responsible for its design and build, is having concerns over its worth, and lets not forget that they are keeping the best ones for themselves if the AC goes into service. Nice one ,Grayson-you made I larf

Edited November 11, 2013 by bruno22rf

[TIGHTCHOKE]

TIGHTCHOKE-I did not say that WE flew either AC-which is a shame because they are both world class weapons platforms. My reference was intended to underline the fact that the main customer for the F35 and the nation largely responsible for its design and build, is having concerns over its worth, and lets not forget that they are keeping the best ones for themselves if the AC goes into service.

 

 

They WERE world class but are both very old now, the F35 will be a genuine leap forward for our capabilities!

 

It's a wonderful piece of kit!

[kdubya]

Couldn't care less to be honest, the people doing the work are mainly british people on british soil and keeping a lot of people in jobs. More money is wasted every year by the government on less important things such as supporting other countries with aid who have their own space programs.

is about right, scrapping foreign aid would have just about covered the cost of two, seeing as it will be £12.162billion in 2014/15.

 

 

KW

[keg]

Agreed, I fail to see how a country needs foreign aid when it can put a rocket into space on its own, which is more than we can do...

[kdubya]

Agreed, I fail to see how a country needs foreign aid when it can put a rocket into space on its own, which is more than we can do...

we did it years ago! never hear of Dan Dare pilot of the future?

 

KW

[keg]

I remember Dan Air! although I know we had a rocket testing facility on the Isle of White.

[Grayson]

TIGHTCHOKE-I did not say that WE flew either AC-which is a shame because they are both world class weapons platforms. My reference was intended to underline the fact that the main customer for the F35 and the nation largely responsible for its design and build, is having concerns over its worth, and lets not forget that they are keeping the best ones for themselves if the AC goes into service. Nice one ,Grayson-you made I larf

Glad I could bring a smile to someones face today!!

[Paddy Galore!]

6.2 billion!? i reckon i could build one or two for that , you should see what i knocked up in the shed last weekend

[HW682]

Should of got one from Ikea, would of cost couple of £100 and comes with an allen key.

 

Funny you should say that because I was thinking that with a population of 60 million, 6bn works out at a cost of approx £100 each per person.

What's the expected lifespan? 20 years say makes it £5 each a year.

 

 

Quite cheap really. I reckon we should get a couple more. A bit like guns... you can never have too many

Edited November 11, 2013 by HW682