Nigel Farage

[old rooster]

I've lost count of the number of times we asked for sensible comments on those topics, but we were ignored by a small group of members including you, who dragged them into the gutter time and time again. In the end, the site owner was forced to act as he has responsibilities where the content of the site is concerned.

As one of the main culprits in forcing the situation to this point, you should perhaps take it up with Teal rather than constantly referring to it on here, becauase I doubt I am the only person reading your posts and thinking it strange that you are one of those most to blame and yet seem unable to see or accept it.

This thread is about ukip, not religion so stop trying to derail it.

I didn't realise that my previous posts on this thread had caused issues? You didn't choose to complain until I made an unemotive single line response to another posters comments.

 

Had a realised that expressing very valid concerns over other issues had caused so much trouble I would not have done so.

 

I will refrain from posting further.

[Fisherman Mike]

if you want to get any further down you will need to remover the base of the barrel.

 

KW

Now don't get Personal ...you will endanger the longevity of this thread ..after all you've spent the last 20 odd posts trying to convince me that UKIP supporters were better than that.

 

You have your political agenda and I have mine ..lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Fisherman Mike]

In todays Telegraph phone in, Nigel Farage said that the war against drugs has been lost and he is in favour of legalisation of certain drugs.Is this a vote winner,what do you think?

No never irrespective of who or which party supports it.

[shaun4860]

See, we can play nice

 

[Fisherman Mike]

i dont say much on politics....cause i dont understand most of it....apart from the lying cheating thieving.********* scumbags and scumbagesses that inhabit the house of conmen

 

but what i will say there are some disturbing parellels to be observed between 1930's germany and UK now..including the inequality we experience as a nation.....sucessive govts always intend to rectify...but somehow are always frightened to do so.......most people dont vote..

 

what would happen if...................................they did vote !!

Are you saying Nige is Adolf reincarnate ??

[Cottonseed]

In todays Telegraph phone in, Nigel Farage said that the war against drugs has been lost and he is in favour of legalisation of certain drugs.Is this a vote winner,what do you think?

 

He might be on a roll just now, but IMHO he dropped one with that statement. I read a Daily Mail article in a forum link in which the DM were remarkably calm about this usurper Farage. That bodes well, but the Mail is prejudiced and blind about the drugs debate, especially about cannabis. For them there is no debate--cannabis=the devil and all his works. Vast numbers of the British public have no experience of drugs in any shape or form and little knowledge of the subject, yet refuse to listen or attempt to understand the issue. Many, many possible UKIP voters will change their minds now he has said this. Even a few on here.

[Psyxologos]

 

Sounds to me like you've been briefed by Clegg's spin doctors. Your arguments are exactly the same.

 

The same arguments that were pulled to pieces by 'King Nige' over the last two debates.

 

Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to how the NHS has thrived under mainstream parties? If, indeed there is a social economic and educational underclass in the country as you suggest, maybe you could tell us who's fault that is? It sure as hell isn't UKIP's is it? Which parties have overseen, indeed encouraged the growth of this underclass?

 

On a more personal note, I believe, (and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong), that you are of Greek descent? How do you feel the Eu has benefited your country?

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Thanks for your response. Please let me address each of the points you raise:

 

1. In all honesty, I lost all respect for Nick Clegg the day he agreed to a coalition with the conservatives. The fact that what i said sounds similar to what he says is probably because him and I share a broadly similar stance to the EU. I say broadly because I do disagree with him in a few fundamentals. But this is a long story for another thread.

 

2. The NHS has not thrived. It has not sunk either though, and this is despite politicians from all parties playing chess on the backs of the people who work for it and those who use it. Broadly speaking, I do not identify neither do I agree with any of the major parties' policies on the NHS. The important thing that many people forget though is that the NHS is here, it is funded (underfunded, to my opinion) by taxes and it is available to everyone. Thankfully there is no US style health system where people are dumped outside emergency departments so they can get rudimentary treatment and then rushed outside the door unless they can afford hospitalization.

 

3. I believe there is a social economic and educational underclass in the country. Do you not think so? As for who created it, well. My opinion is that it was a combination of 'efforts' both from Thacher-like minded people (Conservatives) that sold off most of the infrastructure as well as effectively killed heavy industry and mining, and the vote hunting policies of Labour that somehow promoted university education as the solution to all problems (therefore giving rise to 'degrees' such as Beckham studies) putting a negative connotation on manual (blue collar) work which in turn gave rise to a million other issues. Additionally, the creation of a benefit culture gave the newly created social economic and educational underclass no reason whatsoever to go to work. All they had to do is have children at the age of 17 and get a flat, and a living allowance. Generally speaking humans are looking for the easy solution, which unfortunately means that there was very few moral, ethical or practical obstacles to the creation of a collective culture of relying on benefits and avoid work at all costs.

 

4. You are correct. The EU has been mixed blessings for most countries. Through the imposing of universal pricing, common agricultural and fishing policies, the 'donation' of subsidies to farmers so they DO NOT grow crops (oh, yes, it is true) and the pressures on legislation on almost every aspect of life the EU has done damage. On the other hand, there are huge advantages to every country within the union. First and foremost the peace in the last 70 years. I see the formation of the EU as the sole most important contributor to that. Also, and I know most people here will disagree with me, the free movement within EU is a HUGE advantage. To me, who grew up in another country but got educated here and subsequently created a family and established myself as a scientist is great. Knowing that tomorrow I can, if I want, move to any of the other 27 countries is a great advantage. I have benefited greatly from the EU free movement, and I believe that the EU has benefited from me making use of this. The same way British people have been given a choice to spend their summer holidays at the south of Europe instead of only Blackpool, IOW or Ramsgate (all beautiful places that i have as a matter of fact lived for 3+ years in each) or even spend their later years as 'ex pats' instead of only having Australia or New Zealand as their only option. Believe me, there are people in Spain who complain about the elderly, most often obese and sometimes very ill British people 'riding on the Spanish NHS' which of course have free access despite having never contributed. It works both ways, you know.

 

In a nutshell...

 

EU is far from perfect, but omphaloskepsis is dangerous and definitely contrary to progress. Social, economical and intellectual. I feel that we could better use our mental capacities and physical strength trying to improve what we have rather than concentrate on demolishing it and revert back to illusions of grandeur and imperial glory. In my eyes, this is what Farage does, and if I am honest, he is not even very good at it...

Edited April 4, 2014 by Psyxologos

[overandunder2012]

In todays Telegraph phone in, Nigel Farage said that the war against drugs has been lost and he is in favour of legalisation of certain drugs.Is this a vote winner,what do you think?

probably theres a lot of people out there that would rather not be labelled as criminals he also said this was his own view and not ukips but then nigel is ukip without him there is no ukip

Blimey nearly choked on my bong.

Edited April 5, 2014 by overandunder2012

[Gimlet]

 

Thanks for your response. Please let me address each of the points you raise:

 

1. In all honesty, I lost all respect for Nick Clegg the day he agreed to a coalition with the conservatives. The fact that what i said sounds similar to what he says is probably because him and I share a broadly similar stance to the EU. I say broadly because I do disagree with him in a few fundamentals. But this is a long story for another thread.

 

2. The NHS has not thrived. It has not sunk either though, and this is despite politicians from all parties playing chess on the backs of the people who work for it and those who use it. Broadly speaking, I do not identify neither do I agree with any of the major parties' policies on the NHS. The important thing that many people forget though is that the NHS is here, it is funded (underfunded, to my opinion) by taxes and it is available to everyone. Thankfully there is no US style health system where people are dumped outside emergency departments so they can get rudimentary treatment and then rushed outside the door unless they can afford hospitalization.

 

3. I believe there is a social economic and educational underclass in the country. Do you not think so? As for who created it, well. My opinion is that it was a combination of 'efforts' both from Thacher-like minded people (Conservatives) that sold off most of the infrastructure as well as effectively killed heavy industry and mining, and the vote hunting policies of Labour that somehow promoted university education as the solution to all problems (therefore giving rise to 'degrees' such as Beckham studies) putting a negative connotation on manual (blue collar) work which in turn gave rise to a million other issues. Additionally, the creation of a benefit culture gave the newly created social economic and educational underclass no reason whatsoever to go to work. All they had to do is have children at the age of 17 and get a flat, and a living allowance. Generally speaking humans are looking for the easy solution, which unfortunately means that there was very few moral, ethical or practical obstacles to the creation of a collective culture of relying on benefits and avoid work at all costs.

 

4. You are correct. The EU has been mixed blessings for most countries. Through the imposing of universal pricing, common agricultural and fishing policies, the 'donation' of subsidies to farmers so they DO NOT grow crops (oh, yes, it is true) and the pressures on legislation on almost every aspect of life the EU has done damage. On the other hand, there are huge advantages to every country within the union. First and foremost the peace in the last 70 years. I see the formation of the EU as the sole most important contributor to that. Also, and I know most people here will disagree with me, the free movement within EU is a HUGE advantage. To me, who grew up in another country but got educated here and subsequently created a family and established myself as a scientist is great. Knowing that tomorrow I can, if I want, move to any of the other 27 countries is a great advantage. I have benefited greatly from the EU free movement, and I believe that the EU has benefited from me making use of this. The same way British people have been given a choice to spend their summer holidays at the south of Europe instead of only Blackpool, IOW or Ramsgate (all beautiful places that i have as a matter of fact lived for 3+ years in each) or even spend their later years as 'ex pats' instead of only having Australia or New Zealand as their only option. Believe me, there are people in Spain who complain about the elderly, most often obese and sometimes very ill British people 'riding on the Spanish NHS' which of course have free access despite having never contributed. It works both ways, you know.

 

In a nutshell...

 

EU is far from perfect, but omphaloskepsis is dangerous and definitely contrary to progress. Social, economical and intellectual. I feel that we could better use our mental capacities and physical strength trying to improve what we have rather than concentrate on demolishing it and revert back to illusions of grandeur and imperial glory. In my eyes, this is what Farage does, and if I am honest, he is not even very good at it...

 

 

A sensible post. And i actually agree with a lot of it, particularly point 3. However, though there is much to get stuck into with social policy, education and the NHS, these subjects are us off-topic. The issue is Nigel Farage and Britain's relationship with the EU.

Other than Mr Farage's tendency to a Mr Toad style of dress with his flat caps and Edwardian tweeds I don't understand this portrayal of him as an imperial throw-back. There is nothing insular, backward-looking or isolationist about Ukip's objections to EU membership on the grounds of trade. Quite the opposite. The EU's share of global trade is in steady decline and has been for twenty years. Partly this is because of its innate bureaucratic intransigence and protectionist instincts but also because so much of the outside world has simply caught up and moved on. Global commerce is too fluid to be engaged with as a monolithic bloc, particularly when the members of that bloc represent wildly differing economies and markets. If the purpose of "Europe" were the maximisation of trade potential, the last thing on the list of requirements would be either currency or political union. The key to an agile, fast reacting and resilient economy is flexibility. The inherent character of the EU as a top-down monolithic superstate works entirely against flexibility. Indeed, it is the EU's over-regulated, protectionist, bureaucratic unwieldiness that is the imperialistic anachronism, not the loose, elastic trade relations advocated by Ukip. The world beyond old Europe and the west has caught up with us and moved ahead and it has done so by pursuing the devolved and deregulated flexible economics of the modern world which Mr Farage would like to see at work in Britain, not the old centralised rigidity of the past imposed by Europe. But then, I don't believe the purpose of the EU is the maximising of trade potential. It strikes me it is engaged in precisely the kind of old-world empire building that we should be leaving behind.

The second point of disagreement concerns free movement. The key to why this is not working for Britain is, again flexibility. Ukip's position is emphatically not that of the insular isolationist little Englander of cliche. But there is a difference between free movement and chaos. Ukip doesn't want to pull up the drawbridge and throw stones from the battlements. It wants Britain to have the freedom to control its borders in its own interests. That doesn't mean shutting them, it means manning them intelligently. At the moment, we have almost no control at all which is in nobody's interest. We want traffic to move freely and efficiently around our roads. That will not be achieved by tearing up all rules of the road and allowing virtually anyone at all to drive where and how they like. But that is the position the EU has placed us in. Bigotry has nothing to do with opposing this invidious state of affairs. I enjoy perfectly harmonious relations with my neighbours. I have done business with some of them and I would happily trust them with the care my property in my absence. That doesn't mean we should knock the wall through and live as one. That would harm our friendship not enhance it. I would never turn anyone away from my door on the grounds of their colour or their culture. But I would expect them to observe the courtesy of knocking and awaiting an invitation to enter. The EU has kicked our door off its hinges. The dismay millions of people feel at watching all and sundry troop across the threshold as if the place was their own is not bigotry and it is not confined to Britain. Millions of ordinary people in EU member states right across the continent feel exactly the same. How peace, harmony and economic stability can be served by such a policy is beyond me. What is in the EU's interest as an aspirant single-government superstate is not in Britain's or any other country's interest as a self-governing democratic nation desiring peaceful and productive relations with its neighbours.

And that brings us to the subject of peace. I don't believe the EU has been the protector of peace in Europe. I credit the people of Europe with more intelligence. They have tried total war and they didn't like it. They are not likely to repeat it. But I do know that when people are denied access to a democratic voice; when they are denied a say in their own governance; when their opinions go unheard; when they are in effect suppressed, deeply unpleasant things rise to the surface and that is dangerous. The idea that only by living in an undemocratic sovietised bloc can the children be supervised sufficiently closely to keep them from fighting is insulting. And it is inaccurate. People rarely start wars: politicians do. History is littered with the debris of such failed experiments.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Gimlet

[Flashman]

There's an awful lot of guff being posted - succinct replies that come to the point cannot be beyond the wit of man?

 

Nigel's a populist public speaker. We all like to bash a foreigner: we've done it to the Scots and Welsh, then the French and finally the Hun - twice. Bashing the EU is an extension.

 

I worked abroad, HK & China, and my company applied for a working visa in the normal way. I didn't need special treatment or freedom of movement, just a skill required in the host country.

 

And don't bother relying on local social services, health or try breaking the law. Comply or depart at speed.

[Gimlet]

There's an awful lot of guff being posted - succinct replies that come to the point cannot be beyond the wit of man? Nigel's a populist public speaker. We all like to bash a foreigner: we've done it to the Scots and Welsh, then the French and finally the Hun - twice. Bashing the EU is an extension. I worked abroad, HK & China, and my company applied for a working visa in the normal way. I didn't need special treatment or freedom of movement, just a skill required in the host country. And don't bother relying on local social services, health or try breaking the law. Comply or depart at speed.

 

Fair comment.

Except wanting out of the EU isn't quite the same as having a good old game of bash Johnnie Foreigner. Bit more to it than that. Its about how we govern ourselves as a nation and whether we continue to exist as a nation at all. Quite important to a lot of us, on both sides. Hence the guff.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Gimlet

[Fisherman Mike]

 

Fair comment.

Except wanting out of the EU isn't quite the same as having a good old game of bash Johnnie Foreigner. Bit more to it than that. Its about how we govern ourselves as a nation and whether we continue to exist as a nation at all. Quite important to a lot of us, on both sides. Hence the guff.

The conservatives are being very coy over the apparent surge in UKIPs popularity...They don't seem to be worried at all. What are they up to ? Perhaps its because they realise that votes won for UKIP will undoubtedly be votes lost for Labour and Liberal Dem as hardened voters desert their party in favour of UKIP.

 

I doubt there will be many Tory defectors. Europe wont be the issue which wins the next election and like it or not ( and I didn't agree with it at the time) the coalitions austere measures to generate a recovery in the economy are definitely working. If this continues and is buoyant at the point of the next election the ebullience of the public will be reflected in the ballot and I predict the Conservatives will win a handsome majority. After all we are a very insular and desirous race and history dictates that we vote with our pockets.!

 

So in essence in the short term if you defect from Labour, Lib Dem, Green or even Monster Raving Looney to UKIP you will only be bolstering the Conservative majority.

 

What will happen with Europe if and when the conservatives win the next GE ?.... I would imagine they might just table a referendum ending with the withdrawal of Britain from the EU thus rendering the incumbent Euro politicians superfluous..That would be political strategy worthy of the great Churchill himself.

[ditchman]

Are you saying Nige is Adolf reincarnate ??

 

 

no not at all................its just that who ever one has voted for ..........they never honour the promises they ran on and you voted for......farage is mild compared to other people who might use him as a platform, and once in position will play on peoples hysteria......lets face it , there are a hell of a lot of people out there, who have never voted.....the great disolusioned.............and you have seen or read about what happens next...

 

its just an observation thats all.....im not posting to pick a fight or to be ridiculed..

[Fisherman Mike]

 

 

no not at all................its just that who ever one has voted for ..........they never honour the promises they ran on and you voted for......farage is mild compared to other people who might use him as a platform, and once in position will play on peoples hysteria......lets face it , there are a hell of a lot of people out there, who have never voted.....the great disolusioned.............and you have seen or read about what happens next...

 

its just an observation thats all.....im not posting to pick a fight or to be ridiculed..

Nor me..just having a joke at your posts expense.

[Thunderbird]

history dictates that we vote with our pockets

 

 

 

We do indeed

 

And a close second and third is probably a balance of inherited/received opinion and the 'least worst' option.

 

Remember the Douglas Adams quote:

 

• "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see...."

  "You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"

  "No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

  "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

  "I did," said Ford. "It is."

  "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"

  "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

  "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

  "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

  "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

  "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."

  • Douglas Adams, in So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish (1984) Ch. 36.

[Fisherman Mike]

 

 

We do indeed

 

And a close second and third is probably a balance of inherited/received opinion and the 'least worst' option.

 

Remember the Douglas Adams quote:

 

• "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see...."

  "You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"

  "No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

  "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

  "I did," said Ford. "It is."

  "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"

  "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

  "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

  "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

  "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

  "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."

  • Douglas Adams, in So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish (1984) Ch. 36.

 

Never a truer word.

 

Are you a fan of Adams work ?... I am...met him once at a literary festival..

 

I really think he would have become one of the great literary humourists of the 21st Century had he not been taken prematurely.

[islandgun]

so how do you get rid of the lizards? and does being a lizard always corrupt

[welsh1]

so how do you get rid of the lizards? and does being a lizard always corrupt

By changing the system,and therein lies the rub,what do you change to, and will it be any better or worse than what you have a present .

[Thunderbird]

Never a truer word.

 

Are you a fan of Adams work ?... I am...met him once at a literary festival..

 

I really think he would have become one of the great literary humourists of the 21st Century had he not been taken prematurely.

 

I agree Mike, taken before his time, always seems to happen to the good ones (e.g. Bill Hicks)

 

The ridiculous futures he envisaged have, arguably, started to happen!

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

Mike - " I doubt there will be many Tory defectors as they have managed to turn round the economy and it may be ebullient before the next election?"

 

No doubt Cameron is hoping this as you do.

 

History proves you wrong - how many times have Labour managed to go into the red and the Tories turned things round - and then the electorate have booted the Tories out!

 

Cameron is regarded by many (as is Cleggie) as a public school twit, and personalities do count......

 

All labour need is a softly, softly we will look after you and promise you lots of dosh approach, and things could probably revert again

[islandgun]

By changing the system,and therein lies the rub,what do you change to, and will it be any better or worse than what you have a present .

Changing the system would be great, shame we can't have people in government who are there by merit I.e. economists, academics, scientists, entrepreneurs, etc not sure why we can't vote on major issues individually and online (membership to EU press the red button for yes, green for no). sorry for the rambling just waiting for me beef to cook and no emails to answer

[ack-ack]

Nige is running against Damo in folkestone next year. Should be interesting.

[pavman]

The conservatives are being very coy over the apparent surge in UKIPs popularity...They don't seem to be worried at all. What are they up to ? Perhaps its because they realise that votes won for UKIP will undoubtedly be votes lost for Labour and Liberal Dem as hardened voters desert their party in favour of UKIP.

 

 

I agree with a lot Mike however I predict that UKIP will do well in the Euro MEP vote and the Tories will take note as they have been and make sufficient promises and perhaps even change to placate enough in a general election..... however they don't have a majority and I really think the Liberals have shown themselves to be quite simply not up to the task and far to keen to make hand outs claiming our diverse mix makes us more efficient and enriched.... yea right

 

Crocodiles and Alligator's look very similar but put them in the same pond and see what happens!

 

Britain was once the greatest trading nation on planet earth with our Royal Navy leading the way and what have we done with our wealth and power on a global scale ........ that's right we cant do diddle squat without some finger from Brussels getting poked in our pie....

 

Nelson must turn in his grave every time Clegg opens his mouth!

Edited April 7, 2014 by pavman

[kdubya]

The obscene continuing backing by camemoron of miss piggy's truffling at the trough is playing right into Nige's hands

 

 

KW

[Gordon R]

Agreed.