kent Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Well posted. As I see it, we have three choices. We can ignore any useful cross referencing to lead and spend several decades finding out how steel performs (as we did with lead) before we reach a conclusion. We can engage in testosterone fueled arguments laughingly called a debate and get absolutely nowhere. The stupidity of this option is only exceeded by the clown who originally said, "just go up two sizes for steel from lead". Or we can use reason. Kitchrat said, "A larger pellet will also penetrate less well.... (than lead) (my brackets). There's the problem which only when known can a solution be found. Although lead and steel cannot be compared like for like, never-the-less, there is a link. Ballistically speaking, unlike bullets which can have various different profiles, all shot is a sphere which is fortunate that it makes calculating the BC for any given pellet size of any given material quite straight forward and which makes number crunching quite simple. A few months back we nearly had a table pinned on this site which would have put PW to the fore regarding the understanding of steel shot capability.But sadly, this was not to be. If we settle for production shot of, say, 1425 ft/sec MV for both lead and steel, it is simple to show that a steel No 3 performs as a lead No 6. This is because the (lack of) penetration of the steel shot even though its energy is higher is not backed by the necessary velocity. Similarly, it can be shown that with the lead having the same MV but upping the steel to 1600, a steel No 5 will perform as a lead No 6. This knowledge has been available for over 20 years, and probably far longer, that I know of. The earliest that it appeared in the UK as far as I'm aware was in 1996 (but I knew it was coming). Again, to my mind, it seems that we've wasted a lot of time and hot air. If you take the energy of any shot size and divide it by the shot's cross sectional area, you will obtain its Energy Density. Should any different shot material/size produce a like figure, then you can be reasonably sure that their terminal ballistic performance on any given target will be pretty much the same. Our friends across the pond take it a stage further and deduct what is termed the Threshold Energy - that required to punch through feather and skin (0.4 ft/lbs for mallard for example) before doing the calculation. Anyone enjoying number crunching might like to give it a go. Using Imperial measurements can be a pain because of the number of decimal places involved so metric units are far easier. If you do have a go but hit a problem with finding the velocity of any given pellet at any given range, I can help. NB The shot sizes detailed above are English to avoid any manufacturers' differing ideas. The Bumble Bee says Nah, you can estimate but you cannot calculate dead. One needs to go and shoot some stuff coz there are people out there killing pigeon just fine and Ducks and Geese are falling every season. I have one mate who kills more Pintail, widgeon etc. in a season with number 5 clay shells than many fowlers even get to see and yet the numbers say it aint true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Gents, When I was invited by actionpigeons to shoot on his permissions, we used steel, with my 20 gauge, I noticed very little difference in kill/wounded ratio, then again, I was shooting in the 35 yard range. Mark Do we need the BC, spherical form factor, muzzle velocity before we believe you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highbird70 Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Do we need the BC, spherical form factor, muzzle velocity before we believe you? Errrmmmm you lost me at...BC, I'm no scientist, my theory its very much based on a very basic formula, as follow: If the cartridge goes BOOOOMMM= good one, birds go down= great cartridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Do we need the BC, spherical form factor, muzzle velocity before we believe you? Kettle pot, pot kettle, surely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead eye alan Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 My head hurts I can not take all this in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Errrmmmm you lost me at...BC, I'm no scientist, my theory its very much based on a very basic formula, as follow: If the cartridge goes BOOOOMMM= good one, birds go down= great cartridge as above. what is this all about. I and the small group I shoot with use nothing but steel, and we dont have a problem killing pigeon Edited April 17, 2014 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) what is this all about. I and the small group I shoot with use nothing but steel, and we dont have a problem killing pigeon Of course you don't have a problem. What it's all about is providing the information for the few (I don't care if it's just one person if he benefits from the info') that might like to know why they can kill a pigeon at some 30 yards with a 71/2 shot steel cartridge. Or, alternatively, work out the effective range of any other shot for any given species. After all, it's hardly rocket science, is it? Edit: PS Oh, to answer the OP question - lead. Edited April 17, 2014 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Kettle pot, pot kettle, surely! Not really its theory, as the military put we also need "real world data" BOOOOMMM= good one, birds go down= great cartridge. Basic but effective and what is more dead birds and low rates of wounding are total evidence just like the bumble bee can be seen each summer in flight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Not really its theory, as the military put we also need "real world data" BOOOOMMM= good one, birds go down= great cartridge. Basic but effective and what is more dead birds and low rates of wounding are total evidence just like the bumble bee can be seen each summer in flight Theory is what you seem to spend most of your time spouting - usually bearing no relationship to the topic in hand. When it comes to practical applications, it's more often than not what your "friend" has achieved, hardly ever yourself. Surely, what usually happens is that theory is put to the test - it's how the military get there big bangs not simply plucked from the ether in the vain hope that it might just work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Theory is what you seem to spend most of your time spouting - usually bearing no relationship to the topic in hand. When it comes to practical applications, it's more often than not what your "friend" has achieved, hardly ever yourself. Surely, what usually happens is that theory is put to the test - it's how the military get there big bangs not simply plucked from the ether in the vain hope that it might just work. wait for it..... Edited April 17, 2014 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitchrat Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Well posted. As I see it, we have three choices. We can ignore any useful cross referencing to lead and spend several decades finding out how steel performs (as we did with lead) before we reach a conclusion. We can engage in testosterone fueled arguments laughingly called a debate and get absolutely nowhere. The stupidity of this option is only exceeded by the clown who originally said, "just go up two sizes for steel from lead". Or we can use reason. Kitchrat said, "A larger pellet will also penetrate less well.... (than lead) (my brackets). There's the problem which only when known can a solution be found. Although lead and steel cannot be compared like for like, never-the-less, there is a link. Ballistically speaking, unlike bullets which can have various different profiles, all shot is a sphere which is fortunate that it makes calculating the BC for any given pellet size of any given material quite straight forward and which makes number crunching quite simple. A few months back we nearly had a table pinned on this site which would have put PW to the fore regarding the understanding of steel shot capability.But sadly, this was not to be. If we settle for production shot of, say, 1425 ft/sec MV for both lead and steel, it is simple to show that a steel No 3 performs as a lead No 6. This is because the (lack of) penetration of the steel shot even though its energy is higher is not backed by the necessary velocity. Similarly, it can be shown that with the lead having the same MV but upping the steel to 1600, a steel No 5 will perform as a lead No 6. This knowledge has been available for over 20 years, and probably far longer, that I know of. The earliest that it appeared in the UK as far as I'm aware was in 1996 (but I knew it was coming). Again, to my mind, it seems that we've wasted a lot of time and hot air. If you take the energy of any shot size and divide it by the shot's cross sectional area, you will obtain its Energy Density. Should any different shot material/size produce a like figure, then you can be reasonably sure that their terminal ballistic performance on any given target will be pretty much the same. Our friends across the pond take it a stage further and deduct what is termed the Threshold Energy - that required to punch through feather and skin (0.4 ft/lbs for mallard for example) before doing the calculation. Anyone enjoying number crunching might like to give it a go. Using Imperial measurements can be a pain because of the number of decimal places involved so metric units are far easier. If you do have a go but hit a problem with finding the velocity of any given pellet at any given range, I can help. NB The shot sizes detailed above are English to avoid any manufacturers' differing ideas. Good, sensible post, may be beyond some member's comprehension!! (Mine inc??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 wait for it..... He's going to have to work harder. He's critical of my post but all he's done so far is to confirm the validity of the third sentence of the first paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Theory is what you seem to spend most of your time spouting - usually bearing no relationship to the topic in hand. When it comes to practical applications, it's more often than not what your "friend" has achieved, hardly ever yourself. Surely, what usually happens is that theory is put to the test - it's how the military get there big bangs not simply plucked from the ether in the vain hope that it might just work. Well they do say that the guilty are the most vociferous at accusing others of the crime committed. now if I was a lot older and less able than I am now physically and had to live in a suburban bungalow instead of a shooting lodge in the middle of prime shooting territory were I only have to walk outside to test a theory (for all but pigeon) and an active member of three NW wildfowling clubs your point might be a very valid one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 to test a theory (for all but pigeon) Talk about shooting oneself in the foot! Game, set and match. I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Talk about shooting oneself in the foot! Game, set and match. I rest my case. Go back to the beginning a post I already made. Pigeons are not harder to kill than widgeon or harder to hit than teal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) I use lead or steel, have the same success/failure with both. Most importantly, far more then the bollistics, is enjoyment ... l gauge my shooting as a pastime regards a pleasurable days shoot. How pointless bickering between grown men"who claim its dedicated and an interest" is beyond me ...why not grow up, get your gun out and go shooting. If you haven't anything to do, take up volunteer work or clean out the gutters or something useful. Even the entertainmet value, laughing at bickering men, runs thin .. its pathetic really! People lve met off this site have mentioned the dross on PW spoils an otherwise good site ... bicker via PM's and grow up. Edited April 17, 2014 by hoggysreels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Have a look at richg posting about steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsh man Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Well done hoggysreels , its alright proving a point but at times it get boring to read about P W members trying to out smart each other, well that's what it looks like to me. I know some of you haven't got many pigeons to go after but the country side is at his best now so get out there and enjoy it while it lasts instead of putting facts that half of us cant understand or don't want to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitchrat Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I use lead or steel, have the same success/failure with both. Most importantly, far more then the bollistics, is enjoyment ... l gauge my shooting as a pastime regards a pleasurable days shoot. How pointless bickering between grown men"who claim its dedicated and an interest" is beyond me ...why not grow up, get your gun out and go shooting. If you haven't anything to do, take up volunteer work or clean out the gutters or something useful. Even the entertainmet value, laughing at bickering men, runs thin .. its pathetic really! People lve met off this site have mentioned the dross on PW spoils an otherwise good site ... bicker via PM's and grow up. You're not wrong there!! My excuse for getting involved in the slanging matches is that I've been laid up with a hip replacement for the last 5 weeks, so slanging on PW makes a change from watching antiques, home repair and cooking programmes on TV. However, I was fit enough to get out yesterday, (disappointing 14 but with my leg handicaps that's OK) - (don't tell my surgeon), so I can get back to real life now!! Over and out!! Kitchrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Fast recovery .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 You're not wrong there!! My excuse for getting involved in the slanging matches is that I've been laid up with a hip replacement for the last 5 weeks, so slanging on PW makes a change from watching antiques, home repair and cooking programmes on TV. However, I was fit enough to get out yesterday, (disappointing 14 but with my leg handicaps that's OK) - (don't tell my surgeon), so I can get back to real life now!! Over and out!! Kitchrat did you use lead or steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocknee Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 All my pigeons go to feed birds of prey, i get a good price for them frozen, collected and no grading. Blimey you must have loads of birds of prey where you are if as you posted previously shooting 661 in a week or two all go to feed birds of prey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 Fast recovery .. As my wife says "tiz a miricul cure dis shootin" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead eye alan Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 As my wife says "tiz a miricul cure dis shootin" Pure gold from she who must be obeyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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