let's defend shooting and countrysports

[Gordon R]

compo90 - like others - I will leave the debate, because I don't think the thread is going anywhere. You have nothing concrete to offer, other than the odd ill thought out pipedream.

 

Incidentally, you have to have a business reason to go outside a secure Government network. Saying hello to a Pigeonwatch colleague won't really hack it. Your other little examples are juvenile, to say the least.

 

I said I had my doubts that you are indeed in the Police Force. Adding "the filth, fuzz and rozzers" to you existing list, increases my doubts.

[Kes]

Doesnt anyone see the thread of common sense in what Compo is saying ?

If shooters dont try something new they risk the same old approach which has conclusively been shown to fail. We are a minority, there is truth in that, we argue amongst ourselves - this thread proves that.

The 'greatest good of the greatest number' is a philosophy that drives many organisations based on subscription and even democracy. Fieldsports comprises many seperate exclusive interests. We all know each would, to some extent sacrifice the other to survive. I see nothing wrong in aspiring to something that is able to argue for the whole majority, even angling. All valid points made about media and publicity, even more reason to create a large enough organisation to BE heard. It requires new thinking. Shooters do need to reinvent themselves as a pressure group. The messages we are supplying are good but perhaps supplied in the wrong way. Self policing BASC has done or at least the guidelines and Codes of Practice - policing that on the ground would add considerably more weight. JMO.

Before we criticise, we should perhaps recognise that Wildfowling has its special needs - as does driven pheasant shooting - lead shot needs to be enforced or we get wildfowlers blaming gameshooters for the slide into non - toxic.

I see nothing wrong with the principles but it cannot be said that we are 'winning' with a lead ban likely, with RSPB defining shooting on one hand and quietly as beneficial but fantasising about the shooting industry and predator control when it is a small number of gamekeepers who should be prosecuted, by shooting organisations.

I share a concern that we will pass on dust to a future generation - very expensive dust.

Criticism is fine but not when its cynical and careles and rude. There is some good in this suggestion , as we all know, better to concentrate on the sense than deny it for the sake of a failed 'staus quo'.

Just MHO

[compo90]

Kes

 

I love the way you put it

 

And gordon, I will still send you an email if you want proof I'm old bill........ I just won't put it on a public forum

[kent]

I am all for removing some of the Bods from BASC at present over the GL thing alone, I tend to agree we could save costs with a merger and just like most orgs and charities are top heavy and bottom light "a few too many people pulling way too high a cost from the real issue". I have yet to see a good salary advertised for a job at basc say but I wonder if a higher salary over a single big org couldn't land us a better guy than Ali (have a look at his past) and the fact he hasn't shot before becoming the head man at the countries biggest shooting association - strange you think? .

There are some facts here but its too much a rambling complaint for the sake of it, class, discipline bias, policing, anti infiltration. Time to leave it be

[compo90]

Kent let's get it back on topic. I like what your saying.

 

The class issue is true and needed though as that's the way the opposition are painting us and we need to redress the balance before it topples their way.

[Scully]

This will be my last word on this thread (hooray I hear you cry) as I can't seem to get through to the OP on any level. I have no idea how many organisations we now have as representatives of shooting/hunting in this country.

For arguments sake let's say we started with one, in a time when rationing was ongoing and MRS Higgins was pleased with any scraps of meat she could get whether it was farmed, poached, shot or stolen with which to feed her 6 kids. Time moves on, and there are a few rumblings at the AGM amongst those who feel club funds are being diverted to fund Harry and his pheasant rearing, for the benefit of Rupert and his chums, when Gregory and his chums feel the shed above the high tide mark could do with a new roof and a new stove. Gregory and his mates lose the vote, and do so again next AGM, so decide to form their own group. Now we have two groups.

At about the same time some blokes who aren't interested in either wildfowling nor pheasants have formed their own group and stalk deer in the woods and highlands. Now there are three organisations. Rupert is now Chairman of his wildfowling organisation, Gregory is chairman of the pheasant shooting group and Henry is the chairman of the deer stalking association. Time moves on.

A small group of handgun shooters have been in existence for a while and decide they are such a small number they would be better off under the wing of a bigger organisation, so amalgamate, but agree to abide by the rules and regulations of the auspicious NRA which had in the past been patronised by none other than Queen Victoria. What possibly could go wrong?

We now have five organisations.

Time goes by with as much boring regularity as this post. Some of Ruperts group aren't happy with the way the birds are reared, and feel sidelined when ignored, so with unresolved grievances intensifying into resentment some of Ruperts group defect and form their own group.

We get to the late 20th Century and we have the NPA, the NRA, BFSS, BASC,CA, SRA, BDS, NGO,CPSA, PSGA, MLAGBNI etc etc.Within these organisations there are sub groups also.

Then, out of the blue, someone goes ape**** with a gun. All those organisations who have nothing to do with that type of firearm trip over themselves in their desperation to distance themselves from those firearms and those who own them, and happily sacrifice that group of shooters to ensure their particular discipline is saved.

There are many people in these organisations who depend on their places within these organisations for their income. Now, for whatever reason, someone suggests we have ONE organisation to represent all shooting/hunting organisations. In theory, great. In practise, how? Who puts forward the proposal at each organisations AGM and who seconds it? Those who depend on their role within their organisation for their income will certainly be reluctant for the move.

The CE of BASC is reluctant to form a coalition as it may mean he is no longer in charge, so resists the move. As does the CE of the CA, and as the CE of the NRA doesn't want to be associated with those rambo types who shoot PSG, is mortally affronted at the mere suggestion and refuses to even attend the meeting.

So tell me Compo90; how do you propose to persuade the board of the CPSA to amalgamate their association with that of BASC, or the CA or the NGO? You haven't answered one question I've asked of you yet, so tell me, how do you propose to do this?

Perhaps what we need, is another shooting organisation, one to cover all aspects and disciplines of shooting in the UK? Oh, hang on a minute.......

Edited May 5, 2014 by Scully

[compo90]

Scully, good post, best you have done yet.

 

I see the problems, and don't know the route of the journey just the end destination that we need to get to, or there won't be a journey at all.

 

I am not in possesion of the answers, just the questions.

[Kes]

If we need a new way of thinking, toffs and plebs doesnt come into it as I see it.

Angling includes very expensive salmon fishing etc but most anglers coarse and sea fish on small budgets - they all regard themselves as fishermen/women.

I'm not commenting about BASC other than to say I would give a free hand to a shooting CEO whose business plan is first approved by elected advisors who have a major say in extending (or not) a very short term contract to be CEO.

Knowing the right people is or should be less important than knowing how to unite fieldsports and fieldsportsmen and women.

The PM is a deer stalker isnt he ? I dont recall a sportmans as PM for a fair while. Seeds need to be sown now. Confidences respected and blind alleys avoided.

Perhaps, as in all organisations, its easier to look for efficiencies in structure rather than replan and redirect service delivery, sadly that misses or compromises new ways of changing an organisation which matter more.

Partnerships are also difficult because of entrenched interests but here - of absolutely crucial importance. Not just on specifics but on ALL initiatives but its obvious where that would lead, Selling that needs someone with vision to sell unity of purpose before organisational interests. Members interests first, last and always

An Elected 'Governing' Council setting direction is a compromise from the first minute, in any organisation.

Approval to broad directions and targets should be enough to free a CEO to act. This is just my opinion.

Many like CA, SACS, CLOA, BFSS, BASC and the status quo, many others like to rubbish any suggestions - each to his own will get us nowhere - that, we all know..

Whichever shooting / Countrysports organisation grasps the essential truth of Unity of Purpose and acts on it will win the biggest membership and lead the others - in this enterprise alone, size doesnt matter, personal commitment does.

 

What started the NI peace process - not an easy transition but the end result is rather spectacular - for those who live and work in NI.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kes

[compo90]

Kes another good post, there are loads of problems but I think the gain is bigger than the losses will be

[Gordon R]

My last words - ( as with Scully) - absolutely clueless.

[double10]

To save shooting as a sport...surely we need some teenage lad who has won a bunch of comps to talk to the papers and tell his story? clay shooting or target but perhaps also argue the angle that England used to be one of the best, that it is part of our heritage and culture to shoot? also show just how easy/cheap it can be to get into shooting, that you don't need to be wealthy or of a high social class to shoot.

 

I guess hunting is somewhat a more difficult angle to argue but what about showing examples of crop damage, infestations etc etc

[Glenshooter]

I know she's not a lad but would Amber Hill do? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/shooting/24102032

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/sports-personality/25383616

 

 

Young Sports Personality: Shooter Amber Hill wins BBC award

Shooter Amber Hill has been named the BBC's Young Sports Personality of the Year.

In 2013, the 16-year-old from Berkshire became the youngest winner of a senior World Cup in skeet shooting.

Previous winners

2012: Josef Craig (swimming)

2011: Lauren Taylor (golf)

2010: Tom Daley (diving)

2009: Tom Daley (diving)

2008: Ellie Simmonds (swimming)

2007: Tom Daley (diving)

2006: Theo Walcott (football)

2005: Harry Aikines-Aryeetey (athletics)

2004: Andy Murray (tennis)

2003: Kate Haywood (swimming)

2002: Wayne Rooney (football)

2001: Amy Spencer (athletics)

Hill finished the season ranked number one senior in Great Britain and number five in the world.

She pipped athlete Dina Asher-Smith and golfer Charley Hull , who were also shortlisted for the prize by an expert panel.

[ack-ack]

My last words - ( as with Scully) - absolutely clueless.

 

Dat is because yoo doo not belleeve eey is da babaylon innit?

[norfolk dumpling]

We are all still thinking shooting only whereas I strongly feel we need to get angling (huge nos fish) involved hence why I suggested head of CA as a possible spokesperson - agreed not right image but they are involved with all (most) fieldsports and I like the way most hunts have a good mix of social classes. The celeb chefs do a good job as they bring together the act of killing and eating and enjoying the whole experience. Perhaps Hugh F-W might be a better spokesperson - he seems to be on every channel.

[compo90]

Huge furry whippingtool would be a good suggestion, if he isn't vegetarian at the minute.....

 

And what norfolk dumpling said is the the gist of what we need, inclusivity..... The CA would need to get anglers on board and the stand together or fall apart rational would work with the majority of people

 

Double10 and glenshooter she would be ideal, pretty young lass would get the attention of male and female alike and would be the type of person to show fieldsports has a future

 

Gordon what are you clueless about? The need for the fieldsports organisations to get proactive? To merge and represent a united front? The need to educate the public and stop us all being stereotyped as rich and priveledged which isn't thr truth and is potentially fatal for our sports when propogated and fed

[spinach]

That's it when going for inclusivity get an Old Etonian on the job.

This whole farce is sounding like The life of Brian, are you the people's front of Judea, **** off were Judeas people's front!!

I might have got the names wrong but you get the jist.

John.

[compo90]

Spinach I was being a bit sarcastic about hugh didn't you see that?

 

And old etonians do hunt and shoot, we need to show inclusivity and the diversity of hunters and shooters, we need to fight the stereotypes not replace them...... Show all types of shooters not just allow the opposition to portray us all as "toffs" (I actually hate that word)

 

Huge furry whippingtool and that olympian bird and me and you we all need to be shown to the public as shooter..... ALL ....... Regardless of whether the gun they use cost several thousand pounds or my single barrel 12g that cost me a tenner (I double its value by inclding 25 cartridges)

 

Too much emphasis has been put on a single leader, we need an organisation made up of ALL the current organisations and although that would inevitably mean one person in charge there would need to be several ranked spokespeople (this is where the true diversity could be shown)

[Penelope]

Like wise, I didn't see any rioting either. The only violence I saw was from the police in Parliament Square.

 

Hell, folk were even picking up rubbish as they went and it wasn't dropped by marchers either.

 

What a daft statement.

Everyone from the police to the media reported that those attending were impeccable of manners and behavior and that the streets of London were left cleaner than they have ever been.

 

Did you see any antis marching, because I didn't.

[Penelope]

I'd like to know where this 100,000 at Parliament Square came from? As that was the only time any violence erupted, mostly perpetrated by the lot you purport to work for.

 

Not arrest anyone, imagine a couple of hundred old bill

100000 people protesting

10 trouble makers attack a couple of coppers.

The 10 blend into the crowd, the crowd are sympathetic to the 10 as they think they are on the same side

Public disorder ensues as the police try and extract the 10.

That's what anarchists and anti's do at all sorts of marches.

And being in uniform doesn't remove being scared when it all kicks off and you are outnumbered.

[compo90]

Penelope, that was your experience, we all see different things on the same walk.....its about perspective...... Can we leave these arguments and move the topic forward regarding unity and fighting the good fight.

 

Trust me the tactic used is well known, opposition blend in really well and only do enough to get it to "kick off"..... Just because you didn't see any typical anti's within the ranks doesn't mean they weren't there, hell they are probably also reading this.

 

Back on topic what's your thoughts on representing the diversity of shooters and how you think the representative organisations should be merged/joined/affiliated? And what pr they should be doing to grasp the bull by the horns?

And the figures were examples, god I don't know how many were there, and I am poor at judging numbers in a crowd.....examples please understand weren't quotes, just examples for examples sake

[Scully]

I'll tell you what, despite all your exceedingly naive ramblings, if you get the BBC to explain to you why there was no mention of Amber Hill on Newsround (a TV magazine dedicated to a younger audience) after winning the BBC's Junior Sports Personality of the Year Award then I may, just may, start to take you seriously.

Even our shooting organisations let that enormously biased piece of non-recognition pass them by. Good luck.

[compo90]

Scully

 

How will I get them to do that? If the representative organisations can not get that how will one man?

 

This is what I am saying the organisations that we all fund need to co-operate, merge or something, join together and get on the offensive. I pm'd you to try and keep your sniping at me off this thread, I also apologised for my half of the argument, you didn't reply.

 

The defence of our sport would include demanding such recognition but again would need to be done on a bigger scale and with a lot more clout.

 

As I said before, I don't know all the answers, just the questions that need asking........ It is a destination we need to reach together, I don't know the direction or the journey but see somewhere we all need to get to together.

[scutt]

Random thoughts over a if only we could teach each other to be tolerant within fieldsports parliament and public yep pipe dream but should we try ? well yes at all levels grassroots must admit to once being cagey about what I do in my spare time but as you get older you get bolder so now I in small ways try. I take shooting mags in to work and leave them in the rest room and then answer any remarks made .offer to bring in game to try and when someone shows willing I will take them out and about.I know this ain't enough so I to would be happy if we had an umbrella org.Plus= points more clout and joined up thinking bad points= more layers of jobs for the boys paid for by the unwashed and toffs alike unless we start a new group of our own only joking.would it be feasible to get all these orgs to sing the same tune should we place pressure on them to at least show the powers that be that we can unite when we have to.One leveler have all the orgs charge the same for insurance at a basic level and all membership fees the same you never know we could end up with fewer but stronger bodies to represent us.

Edited May 6, 2014 by scutt

[spinach]

Ok I hadn't picked up, not sure I've ever seen his name spelt correctly outside of his press office.

I fish , shoot game, vermin and clays and beat and ride I know my place!!

You are right about antis being invisible on the March, but the real problem came from too many people for the police to feel comfortable.

I said that there was just not enough reason for the press be that the BBC ,broadsheets or red tops apart from perhaps the Telegraph for stories to be picked up and no matter how loud or energetic a press officer is ,if there's no leaning to pick up the story they won't.

We are by majority white male and mixed class with heavy sprinkling at the top and bottom of the pile and that makes us invisible.

That's why the CA have Fieldsports Britain etc as our last stand will be filmed by both sides on YouTube!!

The antis and feminising of society that is going on has the upper hand and is ascending we still have the law. (just)

On the whole I'd rather live now than a hundred years ago in the hayday of hunting,even if its just for central heating and sick pay!

The world is moving on without us and it has been doing that steadily for all of your life and most of mine.

You speak as you hunt with your heart.

You are honest ,your web site is brave especially showing two deer with explanations that show you know the rules , but you are a dying breed in the age of the Internet not many on here would show even if they had humanely put down deer and show it as part of the hunting and shooting scene, which it definitely is . Perhaps we should all stand and shout with our hearts as you do, but I still believe there just isn't the will to be heard out there.

So rather than call you names I'll thank you for maybe helping my children have a few years of choice .

John

[compo90]

Scutt, that's a good idea, pressure from below on the organisations as you describe may help, it may not but it is worth trying!

 

Spinach, yes I do speak from my heart, too much sometimes and thanks for your comments, those little things all help, making your work mates associate you with shooting is good, they will have a face to put to it and will not believe the stereotypes so easily....... As I said before I supply one colleague with rabbits, he is african by origins, and have another colleague who is indian and fancies making a woodpigeon curry, all small steps help, I too introduce people to fieldsports and shooting and do as much as I can at that level