Kes Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 No BASC were not involved in setting the questions for this trial Do you know who the 'shooting organisations' were David? Or is it an incorrect use of the phrase ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 I think that the quote is taken out of context, not by you, but by the police in Durham. To the best of my knowledge none of the shooting organisations saw the wording on these pilot forms before they went to print Yes its true there is consultation still on going between BASC, Home office and the BMA at a national level and yes we know some pilots were going to be run. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 GCN by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 GCN by any chance? Is that Gun Control Network? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Indeed, all four of them! It's the just the sort of thing they would poke their nose in, GCN, Group of Complete Nutters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Has anyone considered ringing Durham constabulary to find out which shooting organisation representatives were involved in developing the questions for the pilot scheme? Whichever organisation it was, it is apparent their input was either ignored, or they endorse the current questions, or the police are telling porkies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 Yeah really - you should have seen the old forms - I will get you the date of the meeting if you want? Betwards - Durham initiated their first pilot last year...again if you want I will see if I can find out when they started their first pilot. I will look at that link in a mo So, if Durham didn't begin until last year what was BASC fighting for the years before that? Yes we are aware that Durham are sending out extra forms, as I have said before this is a voluntary pilot scheme. And before you ask there is nothing in law to stop them from sending our forms that are voluntary to complete, only the official application / renewal forms need to be completed and sent back. And failing to send back voluntary forms should not delay or prevent you application from being processed, and as I have said and member who has been told differently by their licencing authority should let me / BASC know as soon as possible so we can get onto it. David My question still remains - what are you doing to stop this? Many people will feel they should include them, even if they notice that they aren't legally required to, as I've said to you before. A great example of how people misunderstand these things has just been demonstrated in the very thread - people reading it that their application could be delayed if they don't send it in, when that isn't the wording used. There will be a lot of people who won't dare to not complete it just in case not doing so does cause a delay or outright refusal, mainly because these people have little understanding of what the law says, and in any event they just want a quiet life even if it costs money. So, what are you doing to stop this? why do I get the feeling that I have read the same thing over and over again the only thing that I can see regards this thread is that a few people certainly don't like BASC, in my eyes David answered the questions clearly 17 pages ago , I,ve never read a more clear answer from him, atb Evo The only thing I keep reading again and again are posts saying just this - why do you bother with them? I've asked BASC straight questions, just because David quotes my post in a reply and mentions something that is vaguely related to the same topic does not mean the question has actually been answered. I've asked the exact same question more than once, yet every response has skirted round it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 For goodness sake I have repeatedly told you what we are doing!! I have listed it in bullet points on single lines. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 why do I get the feeling that I have read the same thing over and over again the only thing that I can see regards this thread is that a few people certainly don't like BASC, in my eyes David answered the questions clearly 17 pages ago atb Evo And around we go,David fair do's to you,i personally would have just given up,do people not realise you are not the president of BASC and don't have all the answers,or are not privy to every intricate going on. Get the kettle on Evo ,i have bought some chocolate hobnobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 David has explained very clearly, but I'll try summarising it (as I see it, from his posts). I'll use simple language, and a large font. BASC can do nothing to stop this, because it is a pilot. The additional forms have NO legal requirement to fill in, and this is now (after BASC's input) made clear on the letter that goes out with the forms. You can ignore the additional forms, fill them in, burn them, send them back blank, use them as free loo roll, do whatever you like with them. If a force insists on you supplying these forms with your application, then you should contact BASC. BASC will then get in touch with the force concerned, because this is not supposed to happen. If a force continues to insist on these additional forms WITHOUT GOOD REASON, then BASC will go down the road of a judicial review. If, on the other hand, someone has a prior or existing medical/psychological condition that is relevant, then the force can insist on a medical or GPs report. There is nothing in the legislation to say who is responsible for the cost of supplying a GPs report, if one is required by past/existing conditions. As such, some forces are requiring the applicant to pay. This is not unlawful. David has made all of these points (repeatedly). If some people are just too thick to get it, then, as I see it, they are being : 1. Deliberately obtruse and obstructive. 2. Dense. In either of those cases, I'd wonder if such an personal attitude is really suitable to holding FAC/SGC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBLATCH Posted May 30, 2014 Report Share Posted May 30, 2014 I think that the quote is taken out of context, not by you, but by the police in Durham. To the best of my knowledge none of the shooting organisations saw the wording on these pilot forms before they went to print Yes its true there is consultation still on going between BASC, Home office and the BMA at a national level and yes we know some pilots were going to be run. David yep i agree with david going back to last year when http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/257014-medical-required/ after enquiries found it to be a long road to follow and very misleading,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 David at basc, you'll never win your point on here as some just cannot read anything other than what they post, just thank the Lord your not a police officer or a cat!!!! The shooting community will continue to be fragmented and loose their voice as long as people have ####s. I suspect many on here will see the day it all ends and we wish we stood together as one for a short while at least rather than moaned about our individual little bits. Keep up the good work, at least someone is trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Been out shooting for a couple of days have I missed anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Been out shooting for a couple of days have I missed anything Have no idea; were you not keeping score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) David at basc, you'll never win your point on here as some just cannot read anything other than what they post, just thank the Lord your not a police officer or a cat!!!! The shooting community will continue to be fragmented and loose their voice as long as people have ####s. I suspect many on here will see the day it all ends and we wish we stood together as one for a short while at least rather than moaned about our individual little bits. Keep up the good work, at least someone is trying. I don't think it's about winning your 'point', but frustration at the ineffectuality of our shooting organisations to resolve this issue to a satisfactory outcome in favour of shooters. Yes, the shooting community is fragmented, and you're possibly right; there are many on here who will see the day it all ends, and the annoyance comes from knowing there is nothing we can or will do to stop it. It is the 'individual little bits' which make the whole, and if those individual 'bits' aren't fought over then 'bit' by 'bit' the whole is eroded. There must be some on here who belong to the CA, SACS, CPSA, NSRA, BFSS, NGO (don't bother, Alasdair Mitchell is now at BASC; I spoke to him some time ago ) NRA etc etc. Has anyone asked any of these organisations what they are doing in response to this issue? Has their commitment to this only gone as far as a letter on their website? Were they one of the organisations consulted by Durham prior to the pilot scheme, or one of the organisations involved in the 5 years this has apparently been ongoing? Or is no one interested? It's ok ridiculing me (I'm a big boy now; I can handle it) for e mailing BASC and claiming I dreamed the response ( time will tell ) , or simply taking the easy option by coming on here and ridiculing those who are giving BASC a hard time, but apart from that what are YOU doing about it? Or are you just not bothered, or can't be bothered? Have you contacted your own organisation, even if it's BASC, and talked to them? I don't mean simply ask them what they are doing and meekly take what they tell you at face value then hang up, I mean demand to know what they're doing and what they're prepared to do? If you really press them you'd be surprised at what you can be told, I assure you. Anyone? Edited May 31, 2014 by Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 So another thread that started out with a simple question goes astray.some have asked what basc are doing to get the gp report payment/supply thing sorted and have been told many times that dialogue is underway with the authorities. But obviously that is not enough for some.so we have a situation where a few forces are offering applicants the option of sending in a GP report not mandatory but voluntary. Perhaps the wording on the forms was a little difficult for some to understand.so in reality you had the chance to help speed up your application as we all know doctors can take weeks to answer letters.all this leaves the police to check is if you have any criminal record which they can obviously check in a very short time.so this could/should mean that turn around times need only be say four weeks at most.yes there will be a cost but as they say it is your preference. And let's get in the real world boys you cannot be refused a certificate for not supplying a completely voluntary letter.my last renew took almost five months due to volume of work apparently. Basc will be doing all they can to resolve or limit this as it is not in their interest for shooting to disappear as they would have no members.and that means no jobs.atb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 If, on the other hand, someone has a prior or existing medical/psychological condition that is relevant, then the force can insist on a medical or GPs report. There is nothing in the legislation to say who is responsible for the cost of supplying a GPs report, if one is required by past/existing conditions. As such, some forces are requiring the applicant to pay. This is not unlawful. Yes the police can get a medial report by contacting the applicants GP - the applicant gives them permission to do this. But no, they cannot require the applicant pays, regardless of whether there is anything relevant in that persons history. Correct, there is nothing in the legislation to say who is responsible for supplying a GP's report, which means that a demand by the police for the applicant to pay is unlawful. Do you actually fully understand the term unlawful? For goodness sake I have repeatedly told you what we are doing!! I have listed it in bullet points on single lines. David Which is? Your posts have actually given the impression that you have stopped trying to change anything with Durham as they're not now acting unlawfully, so what are you doing to try to resolve it? And my other question again? If BASC has been fighting these demands for 5 years, but Durham didn't start this until last year, what was BASC fighting before that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Yes the police can get a medial report by contacting the applicants GP - the applicant gives them permission to do this. But no, they cannot require the applicant pays, regardless of whether there is anything relevant in that persons history. Correct, there is nothing in the legislation to say who is responsible for supplying a GP's report, which means that a demand by the police for the applicant to pay is unlawful. Do you actually fully understand the term unlawful? Which is? Your posts have actually given the impression that you have stopped trying to change anything with Durham as they're not now acting unlawfully, so what are you doing to try to resolve it? Bedwards1966, I actually think I would do better by beating my own head in with a rock, but to repeat again.... The police forces are not demanding anything, the information that they have asked for is voluntary. This is not unlawful, this is just asking somebody for something, but with no obligation for them to do anything. Given that the police are doing nothing unlawful, as asking people to voluntarily supply information is not against any law, there is nothing for BASC to resolve. The police can ask what your favourite colour of pants are, but so long as they don't make the supply of that information a condition of your application they are doing nothing wrong. BASC can ask them to stop, but that's all, the police are perfectly entitled to say no. As we have seen from people posting the exact wording of the request, it is stated it is voluntary, the information from BASC say it is voluntary, don't give them it. If people choose to still provide information that is their choice as an individual. 2 very simple question to you: What do you reasonably expect BASC to do as a representative body, with no position of standing in law in respect to this particular issue, in terms of being able to compel the police to do anything? How do you expect them to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontastic Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Anyone? Come on David answer the man's question, scully is getting impatient as he has waited all off 13 minutes for you to reply. Don't you know you're not allowed a life and are supposed to be on here 24hrs a day so you can reply to people's questions straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Come on David answer the man's question, scully is getting impatient as he has waited all off 13 minutes for you to reply. Don't you know you're not allowed a life and are supposed to be on here 24hrs a day so you can reply to people's questions straight away. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Bedwards, I will try to answer you questions one at a time. When a GP writes a report, there is a cost for doing so. Historically the invoice for these reports was passed to the police Approximately 5 years ago the police started trying to pass the costs for GP reports onto the applicant as a matter of course This is what BASC have been fighting against Do you understand this part of the post yes or no? Secondly, I say again, the additional forms being sent by Durham are part of a voluntary pilot study. Applicants do not have to fill in the forms If any applicant, who is a BASC member, thinks their application is being delayed or stopped because they did not fill in the forms they must let us know and BASC will take this up with the senior officer in charge of firearms licencing. Do you understand that part of the post yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 Well, of course you can read it that way if you want to. However, it is worded very clearly. It clearly says that IF you CHOOSE to enclose the additional form, your application MIGHT be speeded up. It says absolutely nothing else at all. That couldn't really be any more clear. What's clear, is you've had no dealings with Durhams FLO/FAO......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 This topic has run its course and the questions have been answered many times. The old proverb, " there is none so blind as those that will not see", springs to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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