Flashman Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 My apologies, I feel that those who need better education should get it. With regard to areas of urban deprivation it is well known that by intervening in a young person/child`s life at an early stage will reap many times the amount put into their education, but the fact of the matter is a council will disregard a failing school (generalisation alert) and put money into their flagships, such as Grammar schools or Community Campuses. IMO the education system needs to move on from the idea of depositing of information and needs to apply a system similar to what Sir ken Robinson talks about below, there is a longer, better and less graphic but more entertaining version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U No apology needed, I didn't realise we were away with the fairies, writing about a utopian country where all services were free, funded by a solvent State. Labour hosed all the money away pre-2007 on gimmicks, so moan at Ed Balls if anybody. Back in the real world, I have yet to read how strikes help any pupil, never mind those who most need extra help. There's an irony in the thought that teachers haven't learned the basic rule of industrial action - you must really, really inconvenience the people who matter, so breadwinners and decision makers - not housewives, in order for a strike to succeed. Tube workers, airport staff, gas & electricity are all important. The people who look after other people's kids don't have the same clout. When allocating what little money is available from the public purse for public servants, bleating about pensions and working conditions pales into insignificance when one considers what squaddies earn for the service they provide. That's where the money is better spent, particularly on retraining, healthcare, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 My apologies, I feel that those who need better education should get it. My kids go to "oustanding" state schools (primary and secondary) and having looked at the system I have worked out what makes a good school and let me assure you it's not the teachers. The answer is the parents or rather parents that give a ****. The demographic of the catchment to our local state schools is such that those schools on the whole are filled with children from families that work hard and want to get on, and as a result there's well behaved children (or better behaved children), well run schools and good academic results better than the nearest two private schools. It's not luck - to get into the right primary school we had to plan and make sacrifices (albeit small in comparison to what was at stake); Sundays were scarificed and we went on the parochial role to get into the right primary school. We held off moving house until our eldest had made it into the local secondary school and then were able to move out of catchment (with 2 siblings who could then follow). Like most things in life, the education system is what you make of it. Saying that everyone should automatically have the same as a right is utopian nonsense. It's a game. Given that anyone can get into any C of E school simply by sacrificing Sunday mornings (for example) and getting sufficient Church attendance to go on the parochial role, one would have thought that all the Churches connected to high performing primary schools would be banged out every Sunday - it being noted that those schools are normally feeders into the higher achieving secondary schools. They're not though are they? Discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgguinness Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) My kids go to "oustanding" state schools (primary and secondary) and having looked at the system I have worked out what makes a good school and let me assure you it's not the teachers. The answer is the parents or rather parents that give a ****. . I think the standard of teaching is very important to the quality of the education that a student receives. After all it is the teacher that inspires, motivates and engages the students when they are in the classroom, not the parents. It is the teacher that creates inspirational and exciting lessons that ignite the minds of the students. Good teachers do this, and there are plenty that do not. Just the same as you experience exceptional service in shops, restaurants and all other areas of work. Yes, I agree that effective parenting is very important in allowing the behavioural standards of their children to be set and maintained, showing and maintaining standards in respect to others. Just because students and their parents live in a smart area and are well healed doesn't automatically ensure well behaved and respectful off spring. The inspection process, over the years has not been a true reflection of the school, with too much emphasis on the leadership and management. This has now changed with the new common inspection framework, with the emphasis now being much more on the teaching and more importantly the learning that is taking place in the classroom. Previously some teachers would wheel out the same old "outstanding inspection lesson" when an inspection was due and it was very much a smoke and mirrors display of "watch me teach". Hopefully the new CIF will address some of this. Edited July 23, 2014 by jgguinness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I suppose this thread reflects one of this countries ills and that is a complete loss of respect for teachers . If the parents among us have these views then what hope for the kids ? There is an agenda to denigrate the public services and it has been executed most effectively reading these depressing posts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgguinness Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Exactly Vole. This sums it up nicely: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Never taught a day in life but having had a parent and having niece and nephews teaching I believe them to be people of integrity . I am a health care lifer and am getting the same kicking the teachers get . You really want education run on imported staff like you have in health ? Race to the bottom is ok when you make stuff to put in a box but not when kids are the product . I am a product of 1970s schooling and it was a brutal experience with failure the end product . However much you dislike it teachers are much better . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Exactly Vole. This sums it up nicely: +1, this is so true! when i was at school, i would have rather have got the cane than my parents being informed of my behaviour! not that i wasn't an angel at school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I suppose this thread reflects one of this countries ills and that is a complete loss of respect for teachers . If the parents among us have these views then what hope for the kids ? There is an agenda to denigrate the public services and it has been executed most effectively reading these depressing posts . Teaching has become more of a job then a vocation for many. Exactly Vole. This sums it up nicely: Heh - a teacher at my sons primary who moved to teach at a private school says this is 10x worse there. They are paying after all! I think the standard of teaching is very important to the quality of the education that a student receives. After all it is the teacher that inspires, motivates and engages the students when they are in the classroom, not the parents. It is the teacher that creates inspirational and exciting lessons that ignite the minds of the students. Good teachers do this, and there are plenty that do not. Just the same as you experience exceptional service in shops, restaurants and all other areas of work. . Good teachers tend to end up at good schools which are the ones with good students and good parents...... I'm sure there are exceptions, but that tends to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I suppose this thread reflects one of this countries ills and that is a complete loss of respect for teachers . If the parents among us have these views then what hope for the kids ? There is an agenda to denigrate the public services and it has been executed most effectively reading these depressing posts . There's no agenda from me, just a bit of perspective. We are forced by law to pay for public services even if we choose not to avail ourselves of some of them and make private provision at our own expense: therefore we are entitled to criticise. We own these services. Not governments, not trade unions, not political parties, not civil servants: us. I haven't lost my respect for teachers. I'm the son of a teacher. But I have lost respect, insofar as I ever had any, for the top-down, centralising state, its incontinent use of other people's money, the corrosive politicisation of everything it touches, its assumption that the adult population are babies who must have their thinking done for them, its vested interests, bureaucratic intransigence, monumental waste and inefficiency and its presumption of superior moral purpose over all private enterprise. Our beloved public sector has racked up unfunded pension liabilities in excess of £1.2 trillion yet the performance of our national health and education systems has been sliding steadily down the international league tables for twenty years. It is scarcely advocating a race to the bottom to question why teachers feel they need to strike to add to this burden our children will inherit nor to ask when we might expect to see some results from the debts we have amassed. Edited July 23, 2014 by Gimlet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I would not say that a salary of about £34k is particularly grand for a graduate profession. Really......... not even when virtually everyone has a degree in something or other. Tell me how much a department head and then headteachers earn .............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Lost the thread....lol. Edited July 23, 2014 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 If you can read this, thank a teacher. In my case, thank parents who taught me to read and instilled a passion for reading. I can only recall two genuinely engaging teachers in my 11 year education Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westmids1987 Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Our beloved public sector has racked up unfunded pension liabilities in excess of £1.2 trillion yet the performance of our national health and education systems has been sliding steadily down the international league tables for twenty years. It is scarcely advocating a race to the bottom to question why teachers feel they need to strike to add to this burden our children will inherit nor to ask when we might expect to see some results from the debts we have amassed. Just a note regarding pensions in the nhs,i believe i have read in several places that nhs pensions actually recieves more money then it pays out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Ok . Lets have our kids taught , streets policed , wars fought , sick treated and scraped off the road , house fires put out by an under paid under class who , Gawd bless em will do it out of their yearning to serve the public . Simples . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Ok . Lets have our kids taught , streets policed , wars fought , sick treated and scraped off the road , house fires put out by an under paid under class who , Gawd bless em will do it out of their yearning to serve the public . Simples . You're being ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adzyvilla Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Ok . Lets have our kids taught , streets policed , wars fought , sick treated and scraped off the road , house fires put out by an under paid under class who , Gawd bless em will do it out of their yearning to serve the public . Simples . Dont be rediculous..... they will never get off their fat lazy benefit scrounging ***** long enough to do any of those things. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vole Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Exaggerating to make a point but not completely ridiculous . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Yes I have. If you signed up to "conditions of Service" for your job and agreed to pay a certain percentage of your wages every month, (around 11% a month?) for X amount back as a pension when you retire. Then 15-18 years later, the "Government" changed the laws so your employer could screw you over, and tell you they want another 3-5% extra towards your pension per month, and oh and by the way, you will get a third/half what we agreed to pay you all those years ago. Would you be happy? Just another thought.... Jamie Edited July 23, 2014 by jam1e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Never taught a day in life but having had a parent and having niece and nephews teaching I believe them to be people of integrity . I am a health care lifer and am getting the same kicking the teachers get . You really want education run on imported staff like you have in health ? Race to the bottom is ok when you make stuff to put in a box but not when kids are the product . I am a product of 1970s schooling and it was a brutal experience with failure the end product . However much you dislike it teachers are much better . +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yes I have. If you signed up to "conditions of Service" for your job and agreed to pay a certain percentage of your wages every month, (around 11% a month?) for X amount back as a pension when you retire. Then 15-18 years later, the "Government" changed the laws so your employer could screw you over, and tell you they want another 3-5% extra towards your pension per month, and oh and by the way, you will get a third/half what we agreed to pay you all those years ago. Would you be happy? Just another thought.... Jamie Similar circumstances for everyone with a pension - uncertainty. I'm paying NI but fully expect to be means tested out of a state pension. Watch this space. Private pension holders have been slowly screwed over too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 My kids go to "oustanding" state schools (primary and secondary) and having looked at the system I have worked out what makes a good school and let me assure you it's not the teachers. The answer is the parents or rather parents that give a ****. ........... Discuss. No problem, you do not live in a sinkhole estate and can afford to move to wherever you want to get your children better educated, unfortunately those on the breadline do not have the luxury that you do they have to get on with it in a school catchment area that they have no control over. You can want as much as you like to get a better education but the plain facts are that if an area is run down then the school is likewise run down as the corporate arms of the council withdraw to make the best of the schools that are not in these areas. Parents who do not give one are forced into this due to being both powerless to do anything else and blind of what their options are or could be due to a system that denies them a way out of grinding poverty because it sits there and molly koddles them with a benefits system that is not much worse than the minimum or zero hours contracts they are likely to get. Have a read of Freire`s Pedagogy of the Oppressed and anything about Michel Foucault`s discourses on education and power with an open mind. The people who look after other people's kids don't have the same clout. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, broad generalisation I know as there are many "Tim Nice-but-Dim" types in high earning jobs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) You didn't read my post. My children go to schools outside of the catchment to where we live because my wife took a bullet to go to church on Sundays so they could get into the right state schools. I reckon anyone can have a go at that plan. As for the sink estates, Grammar schools were traditionally the way out for the bright kids with aptitude but the left did for the majority of the Grammar schools. Edited July 23, 2014 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 You didn't read my post. My children go to schools outside of the catchment to where we live because my wife took a bullet to go to church on Sundays so they could get into the right state schools You mean a state funded school which selects students based on religious discrimination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 You mean a state funded school which selects students based on religious discrimination Yes, but religion doesn't discriminate so jump in I remember one of mine telling his year 2 primary school teacher that he didn't believe in god, she said 'you don't have to believe in god to work here, but you do have to to come here' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 No problem, you do not live in a sinkhole estate and can afford to move to wherever you want to get your children better educated, unfortunately those on the breadline do not have the luxury that you do they have to get on with it in a school catchment area that they have no control over. You can want as much as you like to get a better education but the plain facts are that if an area is run down then the school is likewise run down as the corporate arms of the council withdraw to make the best of the schools that are not in these areas. Parents who do not give one are forced into this due to being both powerless to do anything else and blind of what their options are or could be due to a system that denies them a way out of grinding poverty because it sits there and molly koddles them with a benefits system that is not much worse than the minimum or zero hours contracts they are likely to get. Have a read of Freire`s Pedagogy of the Oppressed and anything about Michel Foucault`s discourses on education and power with an open mind. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, broad generalisation I know as there are many "Tim Nice-but-Dim" types in high earning jobs... Must try harder, Perhaps detention will generate something more than this flimsy rant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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