Mentoring Condition

[stumpy69]

I have just heard form someone that Police Scotland Aberdeen division are insisting on mentoring conditions for new FAC applicants, I thought this was now a thing of the past.

When I got my FAC (22LR and 243) I was asked if I knew someone who could mentor me because I had zero rifle experience I got a call the next day to say it would be beneficial to me to go out with the mentor for the first few times but they would not put it as a condition on the certificate. Does this mean they are going backwards now all the old FEOs have been replaced?

[Redgum]

I don't see requesting mentoring for a complete novice a step backward, a few hours out with someone of experience can only be a good thing.

[bostonmick]

I would think that all new grants should have a period of mentoring.but having said that there are a few I have seen that could do with it now and they have held fac for years.

[Davyo]

What are the conditions of the mentor? who would be the best mentor.

a) FAC holder who has held licence for 10yrs but only uses a 100 rounds or less a year. Or a FAC holder who has held licence for 2 years and uses rimmy at 1000 plus round a year.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Davyo

[reggiegun]

My son had me as his mentor on his ticket, his ticket was open. We sent back after 12 months to have the mentoring condition removed and they did so but then closed his ticket.

 

Reggiegun

[Whitebridges]

Is it an option to go on a proper firearms training course instead of having a mentoring condition? Get a certificate by the course supervisor that says you have completed the training and are a safe gun.

[kent]

The big issue with this is nobody mentors the mentor, there are some right clowns who think they know what they are doing. I see compulsory training looming on the horizon and don't expect our shooting orgs to block it too hard as it could be too good an earner for them. Personally I am sick and fed up of Quals, give me someone who can actually do the job any day of the week

[Kes]

Another one which should be dealt with by our shooting organisations.

 

How many thousands of shooters have had to learn themselves, very carefully, read up and then obtain and use a rimfire or centrefire ?

AND, how many people died or were injured as a direct result of that policy?

Is mentoring justified therefore in the public interest - sorry, not in my book, not by a very long and completely uneventful way.

 

Is the police service a risk-averse culture - I am afraid it is, peopled mainly by those who think anyone shooting is a potential criminal or at best a gun-nut.

Time this 'pick and mix' service was eradicated.

 

I was asked to have a mentor because I had no experience of gralloching - only theory, I had used a CF for years.

[kent]

Gosh they have become the food std agency now have they

[Scully]

My son had me as his mentor on his ticket, his ticket was open. We sent back after 12 months to have the mentoring condition removed and they did so but then closed his ticket.

 

Reggiegun

Did you ask why?

[apache]

Personally I am sick and fed up of Quals, give me someone who can actually do the job any day of the week

Said no patient to a heart surgeon, ever.

 

The sensible applicant will get some experience before applying for their FAC. If you make it easy for the police things will go in your favour.

 

If you apply with zero experience, for public safety then there should be some sort of supervision/mentoring.

 

Going out a handful of times and getting some real life experience is not particularly onerous in the grand scheme of things.

 

[i get asked to sign a few FACs, so I have asked a few guys to come out with me, so I have a decent answer for the old question about the applicants knowledge and experience with firearms].

[Scully]

The big issue with this is nobody mentors the mentor, there are some right clowns who think they know what they are doing. I see compulsory training looming on the horizon and don't expect our shooting orgs to block it too hard as it could be too good an earner for them. Personally I am sick and fed up of Quals, give me someone who can actually do the job any day of the week

 

Another one which should be dealt with by our shooting organisations.

 

How many thousands of shooters have had to learn themselves, very carefully, read up and then obtain and use a rimfire or centrefire ?

AND, how many people died or were injured as a direct result of that policy?

Is mentoring justified therefore in the public interest - sorry, not in my book, not by a very long and completely uneventful way.

 

Is the police service a risk-averse culture - I am afraid it is, peopled mainly by those who think anyone shooting is a potential criminal or at best a gun-nut.

Time this 'pick and mix' service was eradicated.

 

I was asked to have a mentor because I had no experience of gralloching - only theory, I had used a CF for years.

My points exactly. I never had a mentor and have no shooting qualifications whatsoever, yet I was approached by my FEO to mentor my nephew when he applied for his FAC at the age of 18, which I had been doing since he was about 9. Anyhow, I phoned BASC for advice who said there was nothing they could do but if mentoring condition wasn't removed after 6 months to call them again. Nephew decided against FAC so that was that.

Shooters have been administering mentoring in various guises for generations without any threat or danger to themselves or the general public; shootings safety record is exemplary.

'Risk aversion' with the fear of personal blame as a consequence certainly plays its part in the licensing procedure (hence the instigation of the GP's report request) which our shooting organisations are both unwilling and unable to oppose for obvious reasons, which is why I think there will be a time when qualifications are a mandatory part of the licensing process. Retrospective also? Let's face it, what qualifies the mentors.....years and years of experience? Hang on a minute.............

[Redgum]

The big issue with this is nobody mentors the mentor, there are some right clowns who think they know what they are doing. I see compulsory training looming on the horizon and don't expect our shooting orgs to block it too hard as it could be too good an earner for them. Personally I am sick and fed up of Quals, give me someone who can actually do the job any day of the week

 

you'd best move down under then kent, I worked out there for a few years, when I changed jobs I asked my hopefully new employer if he wanted me to get me qualifications sent over, his reply was 'nah, if I think your crip after a week then I will pay ya and you can bogger off back ta blighty'. Not sure if it would work for brain surgeons though. When in Rome though, we are bound up by red tape but ta be honest its nothing new so we have to expect and be prepared.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Redgum

[bostonmick]

The big issue with this is nobody mentors the mentor, there are some right clowns who think they know what they are doing. I see compulsory training looming on the horizon and don't expect our shooting orgs to block it too hard as it could be too good an earner for them. Personally I am sick and fed up of Quals, give me someone who can actually do the job any day of the week

 

maybe there is an opening for you as an instructor/trainer.along with the other pw experts.easy money

[HDAV]

I don't see requesting mentoring for a complete novice a step backward, a few hours out with someone of experience can only be a good thing.

 

But out with who? Who is qualified to mentor? How many trips? How many shots? With what? at What?

 

It has been dropped from the guidance get SACS on the CASE!

 

 

Kent I know what you mean just been told that to work on certain sites a CSCS card and specific site induction is no longer enough now an extra certificate (£££ to training company) is required to be able to get to the place to do the job your trained to do!

Edited August 14, 2014 by HDAV

[Whitebridges]

Is it an option to go on a proper firearms training course instead of having a mentoring condition? Get a certificate by the course supervisor that says you have completed the training and are a safe gun.

 

I hope someone will tell me i'm off my rocker box? In truth is it more about shooters being too tight to pay for training and they would rather spend money on a gun and kit.

 

Believe me if you have attended a proper training course and put the proof in front of your firearms officer with your paperwork it will hold you in a good place in terms of getting the grant(s) you applied for.

 

I would like to add that I have not had the need to do this.

[Kes]

 

I hope someone will tell me i'm off my rocker box? In truth is it more about shooters being too tight to pay for training and they would rather spend money on a gun and kit.

 

Believe me if you have attended a proper training course and put the proof in front of your firearms officer with your paperwork it will hold you in a good place in terms of getting the grant(s) you applied for.

 

I would like to add that I have not had the need to do this.

The last statement is my point - if you are Ok after no training and no mentor presumably why not others ? Why change - no evidence basis to it whatsoever.

Shows how much law is understood by FEO's when they asked me to do mentoring so I could learn gralloching - it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it since any meat would be for my own consumption. Also how is 4 stalks a guarantee of good gralloching skills when 1 in 3 stalks results in an enjoyable walk ?

[kent]

The first time I ever saw the word mentor on a FAC I had to phone the cops and ask what was expected of me as a mentor, the answer was Do you have deer on your own certificate? This says it all I think.

[kent]

Said no patient to a heart surgeon, ever.

 

The sensible applicant will get some experience before applying for their FAC. If you make it easy for the police things will go in your favour.

 

If you apply with zero experience, for public safety then there should be some sort of supervision/mentoring.

 

Going out a handful of times and getting some real life experience is not particularly onerous in the grand scheme of things.

 

[i get asked to sign a few FACs, so I have asked a few guys to come out with me, so I have a decent answer for the old question about the applicants knowledge and experience with firearms].

Mmm, knowing a few i recon if you even dared ask you would get a right old telling and likely be the last in line for the OP. I actually i agree and am far happier to take someone out for experience before they apply than i am to hand hold after the fact. I have never had anyone restricted further than a closed cert after giving them a written reference which is normal and imo good practice. That said its not a requirement in law- I mean we have food hygiene come up here!

Quals are really getting on my wick at present, it seems we think of a new one every week in all forms of work and life yet still standards continue to drop. I pose the question is it because we assume someone can because they have a bit of paper?

[Cranfield]

Keep the debate polite please, no personal insults, everyone is entitled to their opnion.

[apache]

I pose the question is it because we assume someone can because they have a bit of paper?

I take your point. The thing is, if you have done a recognised course and got your bit of paper, you have shown (or learnt) the correct way of doing things. Ignorance becomes no excuse. If you knowingly deviate from what is 'correct' or even what is safe, then you alone take the consequences.

 

I have said on here and other shooting forums: I don't believe that courses should be compulsory, but I do believe they should exist and be a viable way into shooting for those new to the sport. I don't want someone out there with a gun and no bloody idea on safe practice. I suspect none of us do.

[SneakyD]

The thing is, if you have done a recognised course and got your bit of paper, you have shown (or learnt) the correct way of doing things. Ignorance becomes no excuse. If you knowingly deviate from what is 'correct' or even what is safe, then you alone take the consequences.

 

The problem with this, is the presupposition, that if you haven't done a recognised course and got your piece of paper, then somehow you are absolved of responsibility.

 

In my opinion if a person shoots a deer, fox, rabbit, squirrel or pigeon that happens to have a group of children as a backstop, then whether or not the shooter has a piece of paper is irrelevant, they alone should take the full consequences.

[andrew f]

Gun safety should be drilled into your brain before you even handle a rifle or shotgun by your mentor the most of it is common sense and knowing your perm what hedges have a good bank or where the roads and houses are. I saw these rules for 12 years before handling my dads 22. and taking bunnies while being watched. I live by these rules so should old and new shooters alike.

 

1. Always Keep The Muzzle Pointed In A Safe Direction

2. Firearms Should Be Unloaded When Not Actually In Use

3. Don't Rely On Your Gun's "Safety"

4. Be Sure Of Your Target And What's Beyond It

5. Use Correct Ammunition

6. If Your Gun Fails To Fire When The Trigger Is Pulled, Handle With Care!

7. Always Wear Eye And Ear Protection When Shooting

8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting

9. Don't Alter Or Modify Your Gun, And Have Guns Serviced Regularly

10. Learn The Mechanical And Handling Characteristics Of The Firearm You Are Using

 

Edited August 15, 2014 by andrew f

[bostonmick]

Most clay pigeon clubs (the decent ones) before you become a member you have to attend a few weeks so they can watch you to see that you have some common sense when in company and around guns a good thing in my opinion.at the moment all you really need is someone to sign and say you can shoot over their land and an almost gun Virginia can roam the countryside with a lethal weapon.mentoring/training has nothing to do with firing the gun it is about thinking safety before you take a shot.it need not be anything to intense a one day awareness course at a ground like Bisley.it would go a long way to dispelling some of the wrong perceptions held by the public.

[Kes]

Most clay pigeon clubs (the decent ones) before you become a member you have to attend a few weeks so they can watch you to see that you have some common sense when in company and around guns a good thing in my opinion.at the moment all you really need is someone to sign and say you can shoot over their land and an almost gun Virginia can roam the countryside with a lethal weapon.mentoring/training has nothing to do with firing the gun it is about thinking safety before you take a shot.it need not be anything to intense a one day awareness course at a ground like Bisley.it would go a long way to dispelling some of the wrong perceptions held by the public.

You really think the public see's past GUNS to safety. I think thats nieve. I also think that everyone was coached by Dad or Grandad (fishing and shooting) in the times before paper and "it wasnt my fault". My Dad taught me to love shooting. Safety I managed by myself, CF's I also managed by myself. What is needed and mostly applies is people who shoot having a conscience, integrity and care for their fellow man - even if that fellow man (or woman) couldn't give a toss about shooting and just simply hates guns.