rich_morris Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) HI, I wonder if anybody has any experience of the guns on the market with high combs and ribs for sporting shooting. Like the Caesar Geurini Summit Impact, or the Fabarm STL, or even the Blaser Supersport I had been shooting a 687 for a number of years, and had started getting headaches after shooting (got the same with air rifle), and after a bit of advise, and trying guns out, swapped to a B725 which seemed to fit a bit better. The headaches are caused by stress/tension in my neck. I solved the problem when shooting air rifles by fitting an adjustable butt plate, and comb. I am ok with the B725 for a round of 50 clays, but things start to hurt when I get to 100. The headaches the next day can be quite severe. I was wondering if anybody else has had similar problems, and overcome them with a more head up shooting position offered by thee type of guns. I have had a couple lessons, and was told there is not too much wrong with my mount. (I do occasionally find my right eye shifting over to the RHS of the rib though) Was also considering a gun fitting session, but not sure if the alterations of the existing stock could be so dramatic. I do have a longish neck... Any thoughts or opinions/help are appreciated... Rich Edited September 7, 2014 by rich_morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I would go to Dr feelngrope and get your neck / spine checked first. I was having dizzy spells some years ago, after checking this and that plus a ct scan I went to a osteopath and found a problem with my neck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browning123 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I used to suffer with bad headaches following shooting, cured the problems by going down from 32gram to 28gram cartridges for all my shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Thanks both, My wife is a Phsyiotherapist - basically she has said I have poor posture, an its made worse by the shooting position. I have exercises to help, but these generally involve adopting the opposite position to shooting shotgun. I already shoot 24g and 21g cartridges. I had the same problem with air rifle, with no. real recoil. Its a tension in the back of neck thing. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I have a long neck and when I had my gun I was recommended to have a comb raiser fitted, as without it I was tilting my head to one side when gun mounting. Raiser was fitted to the gun and then it was adjusted to me when I collected it, so no neck problems. It might be worth trying a removable comb raiser to see if that helps or having a look in the mirror when gun mounting to see if you are tilting your head to one side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a303 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I used to often suffer with headaches / migraines when pigeon shooting. In my case it's down to poor mount, shooting whilst sitting down and recoil. Used to have serious migraines toward the end of the day and the next day too. Almost gave up pigeon shooting because of it. Eventually got to the bottom of it by making sure I stayed hydrated throughout the day along with taking more care with my mount and swopping from a benelli m2 to a gas auto. Wearing sunglasses whilst focusing into the sky / distance all day certainly helped too. Hope any of this helps, I know how this can affect the enjoyment of the sport. As previously mentioned if you have had your neck checked out, get your eyes checked and your gun mount checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 loriusgarrulus - Thanks, Might try a temporary comb raiser, it cannot hurt to try. Do you have fitted an adjustable comb - I did wonder about that, and notice you can get 725 with one now. Do you not end up shooting higher, seeing more rib? a303 - My Eye site is fine (at least with contact lenses), the cause is related to muscle and nerve tension in the back of my neck. I get it with a few other activities too. I get a real headache like somebody has hit me in the back of the head - can be real bad the following day. I am really interested if the high comb, high rib guns, really do make for a much more 'head up' shooting posture. It helped with my air rifle but that was a quiet severe mod, and wouldn't suit the free movement required for shotguns. When I bought my B725 the gunshop suggested a monte carlo style stock, but had nothing other than an old Trap Miroku to show me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a303 Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Rather than buying one to try, why not adapt your 725? Tape thick cardboard cutouts to the top of your stock and fabricate a rib extension to raise it a equal amount. Could use a length of wood cut to the same width as your rib attached with tape. I'd assume you would measure the height of the rib in relation to the comb height and providing you kept the ratio in relation to how much packing you used between the rib and the comb, would it not shoot to the same point of impact?!? It would look a mess but it would answer your questions about a high rib sporter...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuddster Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 I've shot the impact and the fabarm velocity semi auto with it's raised rib. Have to say I'm a fan of both they really do keep your head when sighting for targets. Only targets I couldn't get to we're high over head birds that seem to be out of line with the rib. I have raised rib citori trap gun that I use for DSL,bat and pigeons when I fancy it. It's a cheap alternative to CG etc. Also check out the new raised rib sporter/trap gun from BettinsoliI ......multi choke and retails around £1100. Go for it. F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biketestace Posted September 7, 2014 Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 Im about to put My high rib Fabarm c1 up for sale, my wife fancies a new 725 ! (spooky) PM me for details, Bta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) Yes my Winchester has the adjustable comb. It was fitted to the gun before I collected it along with shortening the stock and a kick-eze pad fitted. Total cost of adjustments was £280 by the gunsmith at Doveridge where I bought the gun new. When I collected it they adjusted the comb height to fit me. When I bought my Falco 410 I checked the stock and pull against the Winchester and it was a fair match without adjustment. There are lots of comb raisers on Ebay from about £8 upwards. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=stock+raiser&_sop=15&_from=R40&_osacat=7301&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xcomb+raiser&_nkw=comb+raiser&_sacat=7301 Edited September 8, 2014 by loriusgarrulus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Im about to put My high rib Fabarm c1 up for sale, my wife fancies a new 725 ! (spooky) PM me for details, Bta Thanks. I really want to try something before committing to another gun purchase. A local gunshop has a s/h CG with high rib and comb. I might see if they will let me try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Loriusgarrulus - thanks, I will check ebay out... Im about to put My high rib Fabarm c1 up for sale, my wife fancies a new 725 ! (spooky) PM me for details, Bta Is the gun yours or your wife's. How do you get on with it, and find the high comb/ rib? Why are you selling it? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of the HR/HC configuration was to minimise visual interference by the gun and reduce muzzle flip by lowering the barrel axis with respect to the shoulder. Isn't that why trap shooters use them? Surely, if your gun fits reasonably well and your mount is reasonably okay then your head should be close to upright anyway. I've tried a couple of CG Ascent models and they fit me just the same as other 'standard' Italian guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of the HR/HC configuration was to minimise visual interference by the gun and reduce muzzle flip by lowering the barrel axis with respect to the shoulder. Isn't that why trap shooters use them? Surely, if your gun fits reasonably well and your mount is reasonably okay then your head should be close to upright anyway. I've tried a couple of CG Ascent models and they fit me just the same as other 'standard' Italian guns. You may well be right, but I was under the impression that the stock shape meant that relative to your shoulder, your head was in a more upright position, rather than pushed forward into the stock. The comb steps up from the butt, rather than a slope. As a consequence the rib has to be higher otherwise POI would change? I thought trap shooters use them for the better shooting position, and undisrupted filed of view too - but again I may be wrong on that. Hence my question. Edited September 8, 2014 by rich_morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuddster Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 Only way is to pick one and try. Words can't spell out a sight picture so try one and see. F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted September 8, 2014 Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) Neck tension and headaches or shooting fatigue are commonly caused by poor gun fit and mount. Raising the comb so that the head can be held in a relaxed position without any need to stretch the back neck muscles which happens when there is a low comb, or a low mount in the shoulder. Simply placing the butt higher in the shoulder allows the head to be more upright, or comb raising does the same. As reflected by others, dropping load size, and very importantly, also looking a the powder type in cartridges, does make a big difference. The headaches come from the shock waves from recoil. A tensioned neck will transport them to the fluids around the brain and induce headaches quicker than if the head is relaxed. Similarly, progressive powder burns give the gun a "push" rather than a "wack". As a generalisation, cheaper cartridges use more explosive powders that detonate mainly in the chamber and give sharp recoil, while progressive powders such as AA Vectan, accelerate the load up the barrel and less perceived recoil. In combination with other solutions, its well worth both trying other cartridge brands - and avoid cheapest in the range - i.e. Express English Sporter is the budget load and kicks like a mule, while HVE is not much more but a much smoother cartridge. Lastly, go lighter in your loads. Less to push out the barrel means less recoil, so a 24g shock wave will be less than 28g one. Many people, including myself, have found their score rates go up with lighter loads, as recoil fatigue has serious impact on the simple ability to put the shot load in the right place. Far better to put 21g where it should be, than spray the sky with 28g that goes everywhere but on the target because you are flinching in anticipation of recoil. Edited September 8, 2014 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 clayman - thanks, I am already using 21g loads, and get similare headaches with air rifle shooting, where there is much less recoil. I will try some sort of comb raiser, to see if that helps. And maybe try a more upmarket cartridge too. Rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retromlc Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I have tried many guns and might be the same as you long neck etc,I had problems with placing head to far over the comb,not seeing clays as my head was cranked down and sometimes neck ache if I shot all day,to try and get round it I have bought too many guns to solve the issues,even had a Perazzi stock fitting.i thought about it a lot and tried a Fabarm STL HR,I bought it straight away and my shooting has improved.try one first but for me it was the right direction,i have even put my Perazzi up for Sale as I want to concentrate on the STL HR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 It sounds to me like a gun fit mount issue I suggest you see a competent instructor who understand gun fitting. It may not be the gun it may be use mounting it incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 It sounds to me like a gun fit mount issue I suggest you see a competent instructor who understand gun fitting. It may not be the gun it may be use mounting it incorrectly. I tend to agree, it's more or less what I posted above. Some people like high ribs because they shoot better with them, but the alignment of the head and eyes to the top of the rib shouldn't be any different from a standard gun. If your head isn't close to upright with the current gun it's because of poor fit or mount and a HR/HC gun won't automatically solve anything. You might need nothing more than an adjustable comb installed on the 725. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 retromlc - thanks for your comments, that is interesting reading. I will have a look at an STL, or similar, but may take some other advice first. welshwarrior - you may be right. A local ground is offering gun fitting (all inclusive whatever that means) at £175, which seems quite steep. I did have a lesson there 12 months ago to check out my mount and technique. They didn't spot too much that would have an impact, and I think suggested that a gun fitting session may not be worth it until I am familiar with the gun, and mounting/shooting in a consistent way with it. I assume on the basis that an inconsistent shooting style would make it difficult to fit a gun. As I only shoot once or twice a month at the moment, due to work and other commitments, I wasn't sure if that counts as consistent enough, although I have been shooting for a few years. The neck pain is a recent (getting older I guess) thing, and means maybe I cannot adapt to the gun as easily as I used to. I can mount the gun ok I think, but it requires (I am guessing) moving my head down and forward to the comb. Which is way I wonder if a high comb, relative to the butt pad/shoulder would help, and keep my head more upright. I assume, a higher comb, relative to the shoulder aslo needs a higher rib? I will enquire a bit more about a gun fit assessment. Thanks both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I tend to agree, it's more or less what I posted above. Some people like high ribs because they shoot better with them, but the alignment of the head and eyes to the top of the rib shouldn't be any different from a standard gun. If your head isn't close to upright with the current gun it's because of poor fit or mount and a HR/HC gun won't automatically solve anything. You might need nothing more than an adjustable comb installed on the 725. Westward, - thanks for your input again. I think the I was looking at it like this. My gun fit may not be correct/ideal, and what I need to do about that is raise the comb, relative to the butt pad, and my own shoulder, to allow my head to be more relaxed/upright. I assumed (maybe incorrectly - i bow to those with more knowledge here) that that would necessitate a raise if the rib to not affect the POI. Therefore, relative to my shoulder, both the comb and the rib move up. Not affecting the sight picture, but allowing my head to be higher. All theoretical I know. I was thinking that a monte-carlo style stock , or adjustable comb, might acheive the first part of that, ie raise the comb relative to my shoulder. The raised rib I assumed was a natural consequence. You cannot change one reference sighting plane, without moving another with it. I would certainly be happy if a comb rasier, or adjustable comb on my 725 would solve the problem. Need a prefessional to look at it I think! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I can mount the gun ok I think, but it requires (I am guessing) moving my head down and forward to the comb Your not consistent then and quite likely have an issue with gunfit as you are making yourself fit around the gun. £175 is about right for a shooting ground, where are you in the country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_morris Posted September 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 I I can mount the gun ok I think, but it requires (I am guessing) moving my head down and forward to the comb Your not consistent then and quite likely have an issue with gunfit as you are making yourself fit around the gun. £175 is about right for a shooting ground, where are you in the country? I am in mid Bedfordshire. The price for fitting was a ground near markyate. I shoot there or A1 when I can. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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