srspower Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 I made this for my younger viewers, not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs, but I thought you might like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victorismyhero Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) I have to disagree with your results, which are in large due to faultu methodology you are compring a very light .410 load at 12.5g with a substantial 32 gram 12ga load. If you wanted to make any sense of this it would have been much fairer to compare the 19g .410 load with a 21g 12 guage lode. I use a .410 with 19g eley extra long regularly for rabbiting and at 20-25 yards its devastating..under 20 yards it liquidises em... It is true you need greater accuracy since the pattern is much more restricted in diameter, especially if its choked as tight as a ducks **** (like my norica bolt action) but hey...accuracy is what its about..... Edited September 15, 2014 by victorismyhero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedd-wyn Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 Excellent video once again. Very benificial You remind me of that Alan Partridge fella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 Shutting one eye is not a good demo, as you mentioned it is for your younger viewer's then there is a good chance they will follow suit!! No eye dominance excuse's please.......... TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted September 15, 2014 Report Share Posted September 15, 2014 I'm not criticising, just passing comment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a .410 as a starting gun for kids. I know a bloke that was taught using a .410 on skeet (from a young age) and is now a good clay shot. I think you should be focusing more on the cartridges than the gauge/calibre itself. My favourite .410 load is 19gm of 7.5. You'll find your patterns far more acceptable at 30 yards and still kill cleanly. I have shot some nice pigeons with this load. I hope to record a video at some stage of pigeon shooting with the little gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Thanks chaps ... really enjoyed that ... do you think you might in the not to distant future do a comparison, same format, but 12 bore vs 20bore .. using the same weight cartridges .. l'd like to see the results ...excellent video .. well done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveyg Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Interesting pattern test results,keep the video's coming lads.. As always 10 out of 10 for effort and enthusiasm ........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Interesting pattern test results,keep the video's coming lads.. As always 10 out of 10 for effort and enthusiasm ........ Totally agree . Keep it up lads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 thanks for this. 410 a good starter gun for younger smaller framed kids...literally no recoil with 9-12g loads....and in single barrel can weigh very little. only other thing in this video I hate to see is YELLOW 12 gauge cartridges.....I wish RC would drop these from their range of shells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'm confused What does pellet penetration have to do with bore size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Depends where in the Argos catalogue you were aiming for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 If you are going for a .410 aren't there only 2 sensible options ... 1 A 3 inch chamber gun 2 A hushpower type quiet version Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Me not sensible on option 2. My 410 is a S/S with 3" chambers,not hushpower. Its quieter than the 12 bore. They all sound quiet with the ear defenders on though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) My point is comparing an eley fourlong to a rc with about 200 fps difference in speed and a different size and quite likely density of shot is never going to be fair, has nothing to do with bore size but rather cartridge selection. Pick cartridges of the same speed and shot and guess what? Both will perform to the same penetration regardless of bore size! As a starter gun using it 'like an air rifle' is quite possibly what's required (desired even) there's nothing wrong with that. Ask an experienced 410 shot what they're capable of and most will tell you out to 25 yards or so they are a gem. Edited September 16, 2014 by Paul223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 My point is comparing an eley fourlong to a rc with about 200 fps difference in speed and a different size and quite likely density of shot is never going to be fair, has nothing to do with bore size but rather cartridge selection. Pick cartridges of the same speed and shot and guess what? Both will perform to the same penetration regardless of bore size! As a starter gun using it 'like an air rifle' is quite possibly what's required (desired even) there's nothing wrong with that. Ask an experienced 410 shot what they're capable of and most will tell you out to 25 yards or so they are a gem. I don't think anyone will argue with that. I presume most would pick that up from the apples and pears in the vid. Most .410's also seem to be over choked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srspower Posted September 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Thanks for the feedback! I chose the rounds I did because they are the most commonly obtained and affordable. Heavier loads in the 410 would of influenced the result but even then they still put a young shot at a disadvantage. Seems to me a 20 bore gives you the best of both worlds :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 I think 25 yards is tops unless you get a great combination of gun and shell, I also think you cant compare with just two loads and chokes. Way more use full for flying or running prey than an airgun yet an airgun outclasses a .410 at sitters, I am using a .410 for a lot of my vermin shooting now and will treat myself to a nice double .410 once the whole non toxic debate has settled for the little bit of walked up rough shooting I do. Big down point is teaching younger guys (the vid was aimed at them right) that is ok to shoot were you cannot see (like though a hedge) for this reason alone I should withdraw it forthwith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srspower Posted September 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 The hedge has a bank behind it a good couple of metres to the level of the other field, which is why we used it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) I'll start with the positive bit: anything educational that you guys are doing to help newcomers along, to see how different gauges work is a great thing. However... I have to disagree with your results, which are in large due to faulty methodology I have to agree with victorismyhero - your methodology is flawed in several places which I would have expected you to address. Unfortunately, from my point of view at least, your approach is lazy and only propagates the prejudices surrounding the .410. As an enthusiastic user of the .410, I find this hugely frustrating - the .410 is a perfectly capable gauge within it's limitations, if you make the best of it, but at no point did you explain why you'd chosen that gun, what choke it had or why you'd chosen the Eley cartridge and what the specification of the 12 bore you were comparing it with was. In the interests of being constructive, here are some things I would have mentioned or said differently: Firstly, give us the information we need to make a judgement about your tests. You don't have to distract viewers with it by mentioning it in your talk - just put a caption up on the screen that says "RC Sipe 32g #6" or "Investarm .410 IM Choke" or something so that those of us who want to analyse what you're saying rigorously can do so. At the start of the video, you stated that the .410 has a "smaller" pattern than the 12 gauge, supposedly because the cartridges contain less lead. Hearing this immediately raised my hackles and later in the video, your results actually show this assertion to be false - you do acknowledge this point when you're looking at the patterns, but it's a mixed message, so consistency in what you've said between start and finish would have been better. I would have liked to hear you say something along the lines of "the .410 tends to pattern sparsely because fewer pellets cover the same area as would be covered by a 12 gauge pattern through equivalent choke at equivalent range" which would have been the correct explanation. Further to the above, I hoped you would emphasise that pattern size is to do with choke constriction, muzzle velocity and the range at which the pattern is shot, but that it has next to nothing to do with the diameter of the tube the shot comes out of. Ok - you will get a marginally higher number of "fliers" due to pellet deformation against the barrel walls in a smaller barrel, so the .410 pattern may be marginally larger (through equivalent choke at equivalent range), but the difference is small enough that it is very hard to demonstrate without shooting 100's of patterns. The penetration test was, as others have said, a bit of a red herring. Use the same shot at the same speed and it'll penetrate the same. Of course, the dense centre of a 12 gauge pattern will also cause "stacked" pellets (impacting on top of each other) on a far more regular basis than the .410, so you'd expect to see a few holes in the 12ga phone book that were much deeper than the majority. No way of separating these out I think. The reason I used the word "lazy" above is that I would have liked to see a different approach to the .410 in general. Rather than saying "this is how it is" and repeating the same old tired experiments, why not ask "how can we make it work better for us?" and make a video about that (part II?). It looks like you're using an Eley Fourlong 12.5g cartridge filled with #6 shot. Have you ever noticed how every .410 cartridge in England is filled with #6 shot? Ok - so that's not quite the case (some of them even have #5 ), but it does seem to be the prevailing approach. Why does no-one ever seem to question this? Have the magazines and internet all brainwashed us into believing that a shot size appropriate to a 12 gauge is also going to be appropriate to a .410? In my opinion, #6 is just too big for the .410. #5 certainly so. Yet most of the cartridges sold for the .410 have 11-14g of just those sizes in them. Way too much pellet energy - way too little pattern. #7 shot would give a better balance between pattern and energy and get more out of the gun. #7½ might do even better. We know both of those shot sizes will kill pigeons etc. because hundreds of people on this forum use them every week to do just that. Through a reasonably tight choke, 14g of either #7 / #7½ will produce a killing pattern (120 pellets in 30" circle) at 40 yards and retain the energy to do so. On the other hand, there will almost never be enough pellets in a #6 cartridge - only 19g through a (very) full choke will do it. You aimed this at younger viewers and yes, a 20 bore would be better, but for those who are stuck with a .410, wouldn't this kind of approach be really valuable to them - "how can I get the best out of what I've got (stuck with)?". People call the .410 a "25 yard gun" because they don't think about how to maximise it's potential. They just use the same old #6 they use in a 12 gauge and expect the same results, then get frustrated because gun, cartridge and choke won't perform for them. Tell them that they don't need to get frustrated and carry them along whilst you show them how to avoid it, and you're onto a winner. I look forward to part two. Nonetheless, well done for making the effort to inform people - I can very much applaud that. Edited September 16, 2014 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Might be worth mentioning this on the video as it is being used as training for young shooters. The importance of backstops and knowing where your shot is going should always be emphasised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Well said Mr Neutron619, we have a small bore day on our shoot, couple of years back I decided to use the 410 on a regular shoot day and one of the other guns who would not turn out to the small bore day said to me that he thought I was being cruel, saying that the 410 would not kill clean, I politely pointed out I'd had picked 3 cleanly killed birds for 4 shots with one of the faster birds requiring some extra lead to connect hence the fourth shot, then asked him how many of the 4 birds for his 11 shots he had managed to pick ! Edited September 16, 2014 by Paul223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'll start with the positive bit: anything educational that you guys are doing to help newcomers along, to see how different gauges work is a great thing. However... I have to agree with victorismyhero - your methodology is flawed in several places which I would have expected you to address. Unfortunately, from my point of view at least, your approach is lazy and only propagates the prejudices surrounding the .410. As an enthusiastic user of the .410, I find this hugely frustrating - the .410 is a perfectly capable gauge within it's limitations, if you make the best of it, but at no point did you explain why you'd chosen that gun, what choke it had or why you'd chosen the Eley cartridge and what the specification of the 12 bore you were comparing it with was. In the interests of being constructive, here are some things I would have mentioned or said differently: Firstly, give us the information we need to make a judgement about your tests. You don't have to distract viewers with it by mentioning it in your talk - just put a caption up on the screen that says "RC Sipe 32g #6" or "Investarm .410 IM Choke" or something so that those of us who want to analyse what you're saying rigorously can do so. At the start of the video, you stated that the .410 has a "smaller" pattern than the 12 gauge, supposedly because the cartridges contain less lead. Hearing this immediately raised my hackles and later in the video, your results actually show this assertion to be false - you do acknowledge this point when you're looking at the patterns, but it's a mixed message, so consistency in what you've said between start and finish would have been better. I would have liked to hear you say something along the lines of "the .410 tends to pattern sparsely because fewer pellets cover the same area as would be covered by a 12 gauge pattern through equivalent choke at equivalent range" which would have been the correct explanation. Further to the above, I hoped you would emphasise that pattern size is to do with choke constriction, muzzle velocity and the range at which the pattern is shot, but that it has next to nothing to do with the diameter of the tube the shot comes out of. Ok - you will get a marginally higher number of "fliers" due to pellet deformation against the barrel walls in a smaller barrel, so the .410 pattern may be marginally larger (through equivalent choke at equivalent range), but the difference is small enough that it is very hard to demonstrate without shooting 100's of patterns. The penetration test was, as others have said, a bit of a red herring. Use the same shot at the same speed and it'll penetrate the same. Of course, the dense centre of a 12 gauge pattern will also cause "stacked" pellets (impacting on top of each other) on a far more regular basis than the .410, so you'd expect to see a few holes in the 12ga phone book that were much deeper than the majority. No way of separating these out I think. The reason I used the word "lazy" above is that I would have liked to see a different approach to the .410 in general. Rather than saying "this is how it is" and repeating the same old tired experiments, why not ask "how can we make it work better for us?" and make a video about that (part II?). It looks like you're using an Eley Fourlong 12.5g cartridge filled with #6 shot. Have you ever noticed how every .410 cartridge in England is filled with #6 shot? Ok - so that's not quite the case (some of them even have #5 ), but it does seem to be the prevailing approach. Why does no-one ever seem to question this? Have the magazines and internet all brainwashed us into believing that a shot size appropriate to a 12 gauge is also going to be appropriate to a .410? In my opinion, #6 is just too big for the .410. #5 certainly so. Yet most of the cartridges sold for the .410 have 11-14g of just those sizes in them. Way too much pellet energy - way too little pattern. #7 shot would give a better balance between pattern and energy and get more out of the gun. #7½ might do even better. We know both of those shot sizes will kill pigeons etc. because hundreds of people on this forum use them every week to do just that. Through a reasonably tight choke, 14g of either #7 / #7½ will produce a killing pattern (120 pellets in 30" circle) at 40 yards and retain the energy to do so. On the other hand, there will almost never be enough pellets in a #6 cartridge - only 19g through a (very) full choke will do it. You aimed this at younger viewers and yes, a 20 bore would be better, but for those who are stuck with a .410, wouldn't this kind of approach be really valuable to them - "how can I get the best out of what I've got (stuck with)?". People call the .410 a "25 yard gun" because they don't think about how to maximise it's potential. They just use the same old #6 they use in a 12 gauge and expect the same results, then get frustrated because gun, cartridge and choke won't perform for them. Tell them that they don't need to get frustrated and carry them along whilst you show them how to avoid it, and you're onto a winner. I look forward to part two. Nonetheless, well done for making the effort to inform people - I can very much applaud that. This is the point I was trying to make. My best kills with the .410 have been with 19gm of 7.5 (pigeon shooting). I will post pictures of some pattern testing one day. It is a bit more of a challenge to kill with the .410, but what's wrong with that? 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Underdog Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Done plenty with the .410. Geese too back when....fox too. 1/2oz of #7 was plenty. Lost count of the pheasants! Underestimated. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedd-wyn Posted September 16, 2014 Report Share Posted September 16, 2014 Totally, 410 is coming out with me tonight, always the first choice Anybody shot rabbits with no7's? Or 7.5s? I've only ever used 6s but di the job hust fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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