johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 For no reason other than I was gifted a chrono we fired a pile of cartridges over it just to see the results! Hope it make interesting reading! The chrono was 1m from the muzzle, all shot in 12g were fired through a benelli with 1/4 comp-n-choke. Cartridge Velocity Test Light Game Cartridges 1430fps Cheddite Free Shots 30g 1378fps Rio Game 30g 1300fps Gamebore Velocity 29g 1285fps Mirage T2 Game 28g Medium Game Cartridges 32g no5 1437fps Clever/Mirage Xpert Game 1409fps Rio Royal 1404fps Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 1336fps RC Sipe 1330fps Gamebore Black Gold 1309fps Viri/FOB 1306fps Rottweil Tiger 1288fps Gamebore Pure Gold 1287fps Lyalvale Supreme Game 1284fps Eley VIP 1277fps Hull High Pheasant Extreme 1225fps Hull High Pheasant Heavy Game Cartridges 1387fps Mirage HV 36g 1349fps Rottweil Waidmannshiel 36g 1327fps RC JK6 T5 36g 1309fps Cheddite Percorso 36g 1291fps Gamebore Pigeon Extreme 34g Semi Magnum 2.75" Cartridges 1406fps Mirage Royal Winter 40g 1353fps Cheddite T5 42g 1351fps RC 40 1349fps Rio Mini Magnum 40g 1299fps Victory Mini Magnum 40g 1207fps Lyalvale Super Game 42g 1171fps Gamebore Buffalo 42g Magnum 3" Cartridges 1322fps Cheddite Magnum 50g 1288fps RC 50 1252fps Mirage Magnum 50g 1238fps Hull Solway 50g 1226fps Fiocchi 50g 1184fps Gamebore Mammoth 50g 1181fps Lyalvale Max Game 50g Super Magnum 3.5" 1321fps Gamebore Mammoth 62g Steel Game 2.75" 1413fps RC Atomic Steel 32g 1399fps Mirage Steel 32g 1396fps Gamebore Super Steel 32g 1382fps Rio Blue Steel 32g 1372fps Bornaghi Steel 36g 1282fps Cheddite Steel 34g Steel Game 3" 1373fps Eley Lightening Steel 36g 1336fps Gamebore Super Steel 36g Steel Super Magnum 3.5" 1428fps Gamebore Mammoth Steel 42g Clay Cartridge 1470fps Cheddite Mach 3 HV 24g 1383fps Kent Velocity 28g 1374fps Cheddite Universal Trap 24g 1361fps Cheddite Mach 3 Free Shots 28g 1359fps Cheddite Trap Oro 24g 1358fps Cheddite Drago Skeet T3 24g 1347fps Cheddite Smart Strike 28g 1342fps Cheddite Mach 3 28g 1320fps Rio Target 28g 1318fps Lyalvale Super Comp 28g 1268fps Lyalvale English Sporter 1254fps Mirage Supertarget 28g 1214fps Hull Comp X 28g 20g 1425fps Cheddite T1 24g Fibre Wad 1339fps Lyalvale Special Pigeon 21g 1322fps Fiocchi 30g 1280fps Fiocchi 3" Magnum 1273fps RC Semi Magnum 32g 1260fps RC JK6 T3 26g 1244fps Viri/FOB 30g 1224fps Gamebore Pure Gold 28g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Just out of interest what barrel length was used ? Must say bit of an eye opener on some manufacturers claims . For instance the black golds . Arnt they claimed to be 1500 fps ? Yes im aware that they would have used a different set up . And would expect them to be a fare bit lower in a semi auto . However it does seem to fall short of what i would have expected . That said others performed much better than i would have thought . Good of you to take the time and post your results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 28" barrel, the frustrating thing is I can't get fibre wads to chrono! I mainly use RC ORO and Blue Lightenings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Bloody hell JBT you sure did have a good days shooting i always find it good reading when people put factory cartridges over the chrono as we all know the arnt doing the speeds that are stated on the box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 28" barrel, the frustrating thing is I can't get fibre wads to chrono! I mainly use RC ORO and Blue Lightenings Have you tried been a bit further away than 1m from chrono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Where on earth did you get that load of carts, there can hardly be a dealer in the country with that sort of selection! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Just out of interest, did you only take one shot with each shell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 I'm thinking about a magneto speed chrono, it may well work at distance is it's the big puff of smoke coming out the barrel with fibre wads that is obscuring the chrono! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 No the speeds are an average! Surprising how consistent some of them were. The Rottweil were very consistent. It's been a collection of cartridges that I have and my friends contributed. I would like to test even more but finances are the amount of cartridges I have accrued are holding me back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 johnny which black gold were they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 All medium game are 32g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 One of the things that started this all was the fact we were stonewalling high pheasants with Royal Royal cartridges, Black Golds were good but not as good as the Royal. I then chronoed them just to see what the difference was, examined once fired wads and opened some up to see what was in them. The black gold have a B&P wad which is in allot of other cartridges, it doesn't seem to fracture evenly. The Viri/FOB catalogue shows picture of a shot column that has elongated due to this type of wad fracture. True to the Viri/FOB catalogue their wad fractures evenly as does the Royal (Fiocchi and Clever) The difference is probably negligible but I'd rather spend my hard earned on the technically best cartridge rather than one that has clever marketing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 so the black gold stated fps on the box is boll ocks then over 200 fps slower i think we all know that they add a little on but to be adding that much on surly that would come under false advertising and trading standards could be all over them ??. out of interest what wad is in the Royal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 to be fair you cant really use a 28" semi auto for an accurate comparison to the manufacturers claimed performance figures , that said its still very interesting to see his results , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) The cartridge manufacture measures velocity (and pressure) using a test barrel after normalising the temperature of the cartridge. The test barrel has minimum internal bore diameter for the gauge that the gauge specification allows and maximum choke. This combination ensures any cartridge tested will give maximum velocity and pressure and in theory these will never be achieved in a working gun due to manufacturing tolerance. Barrel length is also a standard length but interestingly the different lengths of a shotgun barrel have little effect on variation on velocity. Then they or most measure the velocity at 2.5meters from the muzzle. A fiddle factor is then added to the 2.5mtr velocity to guesstimate the muzzle velocity. So in practice you will not get the velocity stated on the box and it would be very difficult for the customer to claim the manufacture is breaking trading practice by overstating the velocity. When testing cartridges it is the standard deviation (sd) figure which is more significant as this show variation between each cartridge in a tested batch so reflects on overall consistency/quality. None of which matters shot pattern always fails before velocity/energy so shoot whatever gives you confidence to win and don't let marketing rubbish distract you. Edited September 20, 2014 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 Most factory cartridges I've chrono'd have been around 1200-1250ish. Surprised they were so fast to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 The cartridge manufacture measures velocity (and pressure) using a test barrel after normalising the temperature of the cartridge. The test barrel has minimum internal bore diameter for the gauge that the gauge specification allows and maximum choke. This combination ensures any cartridge tested will give maximum velocity and pressure and in theory these will never be achieved in a working gun due to manufacturing tolerance. Barrel length is also a standard length but interestingly the different lengths of a shotgun barrel have little effect on variation on velocity. Then they or most measure the velocity at 2.5meters from the muzzle. A fiddle factor is then added to the 2.5mtr velocity to guesstimate the muzzle velocity. So in practice you will not get the velocity stated on the box and it would be very difficult for the customer to claim the manufacture is breaking trading practice by overstating the velocity. When testing cartridges it is the standard deviation (sd) figure which is more significant as this show variation between each cartridge in a tested batch so reflects on overall consistency/quality. None of which matters shot pattern always fails before velocity/energy so shoot whatever gives you confidence to win and don't let marketing rubbish distract you. I know how they test them i have sent loads to proof house but when i put some of mine over a mates chrono i get a speed around the same as the proof house and with johnny putting his over the chrono at 1m not the 2.5m that they do on a test gun you would think that the speeds would be closer not over 200fps slower as in the black gold"s case the FIDDLE factor if i remember right is around 75fps worked back from 2.5m to muz (am sure one of the gods of reloading will come on and tell us the figure) But it dose make good reading the tests that johnny did and good on him for taking the time to do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted September 20, 2014 Report Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) I think if you test them in a usable everyday gun rather than a test barrel you will get a true reading of what we achieve when shooting them. If you want to test at 2.5 meters but don't want to blast your chrono to bits shield it with a bit of thick ply with a hole cut for the shot and wad to pass through inline with the device arms. After looking at the results I know which carts I'd go for. Figgy Edited September 20, 2014 by figgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pestcontrol1 Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 After looking at the results I know which carts I'd go for. Figgy dont keep us all in suspenders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
propercartridges Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 after installing a very expensive ballistic test lab for both speed and pressure provided by sabre ballistics and used by the proof house my instructions are from the end of the mussle of the test gun which is bolted down so nothing can move measure 2.5 meters to the centre of the 2 frames witch r 2 feet apart and shoot 10 of the made cartridges the magic computer then coughs out the rest based on averages then times by 3.3 to turn to feet then add a 100 feet no arguments please that's the way I have been told to do it when it was installed by their men when purchased end of story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 after installing a very expensive ballistic test lab for both speed and pressure provided by sabre ballistics and used by the proof house my instructions are from the end of the mussle of the test gun which is bolted down so nothing can move measure 2.5 meters to the centre of the 2 frames witch r 2 feet apart and shoot 10 of the made cartridges the magic computer then coughs out the rest based on averages then times by 3.3 to turn to feet then add a 100 feet no arguments please that's the way I have been told to do it when it was installed by their men when purchased end of story I fully accept that is meant to be their preferred way but why add 100 fps ? You'd think we have enough technology today to be able to measure the actual velocity of shells at 2.5 meters from the muzzle ! I have to agree with Sitsinhedges, those figures just look too high generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 I agree with George 100% (or thereabouts) amateur chronograph will need to be between 2 and 2.5 mt from the muzzle and you should add 50 Ft/s to the results. However, you should always try few test shells with a cartridge you know the speed (best if you have a certificate to compare to) Also, make sure the batch of powder has to be the same from shell to shell as this will dramatically change the score... When putting the chrony at 2.5 mt i'd advise to protect the screen with a piece of plexiglas (5mm thick) to ensure random pellets don't hit it! George, don't you have a proper manometric barrell in your lab?? i thought you would (or must) have for your business! Are you proofing shells for private clients? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 I fully accept that is meant to be their preferred way but why add 100 fps ? You'd think we have enough technology today to be able to measure the actual velocity of shells at 2.5 meters from the muzzle ! I have to agree with Sitsinhedges, those figures just look too high generally. Unless you have a manometric barrell or send your shells to the proofing house, there is no way you can determine the exact speed of a shell, especially with cheap chrony (I have a oheler 35, which is one of the best) and still get approx measurement. This is because the chrony measures the shadow and not the front going through the sensors, so, it is affected mainly by light, position (compared to the source of light) and whether more or less pellets separate from the wad. So, unless you have a £20K manometric barrell .... you haveto adjust to still obtain an approximate measure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Unless you have a manometric barrell or send your shells to the proofing house, there is no way you can determine the exact speed of a shell, especially with cheap chrony (I have a oheler 35, which is one of the best) and still get approx measurement. This is because the chrony measures the shadow and not the front going through the sensors, so, it is affected mainly by light, position (compared to the source of light) and whether more or less pellets separate from the wad. So, unless you have a £20K manometric barrell .... you haveto adjust to still obtain an approximate measure... I accept that, £120 worth of chrono is simply not going to be up to the job of measuring shell speeds although they are plenty good enough for air gun or rifle applications, what I meant is that it's high time manufacturers started having each and every brands/type of shells speeds professionally measured and stamped on the boxes. They don't and never will because they have free reign in misleading us with nice round figures such as 1500 fps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Has anyone seen or used a magneto speed chrono? That might be my next investment to test fibre wad cartridges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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