I feel like crying !

[motty]

 

Just don't spill your guts on the internet to give the antis ammunition if you don't pick it.

Far better to pretend that wounding doesn't exist.

[birdsallpl]

Fenboy, the bottom line is, all you did was share an experience with us. It was obviously important for you to get your first Pink on the foreshore. For all Wildfowlers this moment is a milestone and sometimes takes years, others have achieved it first time out trying, (but not many) Whatever you say on this forum someone will see a negative in it, but I believe that most of those type of comments are written with good intent. I know how you felt when you thought you had connected and the bird was dropping and I can imagine how gutted you was when it flew on. I know you also would have despatched the bird if at all possible. That is the main thing. Don't ignore what some people have said, it is usually good advise. Keep at it and I can't wait to read your post when you tell us about the Pink in the bag.

[birdsallpl]

Can someone just clarify this for me please, if i see a Pink Foot Goose on the marsh should I wait until I see its feet clearly, wait until I see its eyes and it winks at me or take a range finder with me?

I think the point is we all need some kind of reference point to help estimate range. Shooting Pink feet geese on the foreshore is not an event that most of us do that regularly. I have raised a gun to pigeons probably a hundred fold more times than I Have to a pink. So what comes naturally with say pigeons or ducks won't necessarily be the case with birds we only shoot occasionally. So my reference point when shooting Pinks is being able to clearly see their paddles. If I can't I don't shoot. Believe or not this really helps to ensure correct killing range.

[JDog]

Your honesty has caused some grief as it always will in matters like this. Others may have wounded more and made no mention of it.

[joknob]

keep it to yourself and don't post on public forums,theres always some idiot wanting to stir the ****

[andrew f]

pretty sure everyone here has lost some game. Just very unlucky fenboy hope you get one soon

[washwildfowler]

FENBOY you know i always speak as i find , just remember this.... Half of them on hear carry a toilet roll around with them 24/7 because they permanently talk **** ..that's why a lot of Decent lads who actually get out and go wildfowling will Not post on hear anymore FACT ...

Edited November 2, 2014 by washwildfowler

[fenboy]

FENBOY you know i always speak as i find , just remember this.... Half of them on hear carry a toilet roll around with them 24/7 because there permanently talk **** ..that's why a lot of Decent lads who actually get out and go wildfowling will Not post on hear anymore FACT ...

Thanks mate , I had worked that much out for myself , I guess they are entitled to their opinion though .

 

If anyone wants evidence to try and ban shooting they only need to have a peek on youtube , unfortunately I shoot in the real world where these things can and do happen , its less likely from a armchair .

 

I will be out in the morning for another try.

[E.w.]

Thanks mate , I had worked that much out for myself , I guess they are entitled to their opinion though .

 

If anyone wants evidence to try and ban shooting they only need to have a peek on youtube , unfortunately I shoot in the real world where these things can and do happen , its less likely from a armchair .

 

I will be out in the morning for another try.

that post was fantastic you are a top man happy hunting in the morning.

[Tony G]

Good luck for tomorrow Fenboy I've not met you down there yet,might be about later in the week for the moon

[Donkey]

Well said fenboy good luck tomorrow

[fenboy]

Good luck for tomorrow Fenboy I've not met you down there yet,might be about later in the week for the moon

 

Thanks Tony , let me know if you get down for the moon and perhaps we can meet up , I am working Tues - Saturday so it would be after then.

[fendrover90]

FENBOY you know i always speak as i find , just remember this.... Half of them on hear carry a toilet roll around with them 24/7 because they permanently talk **** ..that's why a lot of Decent lads who actually get out and go wildfowling will Not post on hear anymore FACT ...

better luck next time fenboy ... I for one won't post on here of my exploits anymore for the fact of one Southern know it all that always has to poke his nose in to shoot everybody down I just read the all the bitching and think to myself I don't need this in my life

[kent]

CRICKEY, the geese were 45 yards up by estimate and it was a second shot at them! How miuch further were they triangluted for the second shot? AS A WILD GUESS because that all any of us can do while out with the shotgun. I once asked a well respcted fowler how you can disapline a member for shooting out of range (burden of proof) his answer was what percentage is he missing and are they dead when they come down, I think this sums it up.

I have just got back from evening flight fired two shots and picked nowt though both birds dropped. No.1 42 grm gamebore with kicks choke (it still isn't a death ray) first was just too far Pintail but I commited without assessing the speed while setting out the deeks with triangulation the shot didn't have the energy but like many once you commit and swing your finger moves automatically when your eye gets the picture, head dropped and bird fell. looked quite a while with the dog and nothing found (he never marked it but I worked him through the area intensively). Second a widgeon over the decoys at 35 yards one shot felled it and it splatted down on the water, made the dog wait 30 seconds as he had marked it and was over keen (down a litle gutter wounded most likely expired in a dead spot for scenting). Its very rare the dog wont find a bird like that) at the end of the flight I worked both areas over again looking with a torch under the gutters and very methodically. as often a previously unfound bird will have expired and no longer be actively evading capture, or perhaps the air might have changed allowing the dog to get onto it still nothing found.

Now the facts are 1. we all occasionally shoot out of our most effective range 50 yards is well out of the energy range to reliably kill a goose without a lucky hit with 42 grm of Gamebore number 1 or BB 2. Yes I have killed further with less by mistake or even out of a little desperation, its just not a good idea. we cannot control were our pellets strike even with a well centred strike we still trust to percentages.

The fact remains if a goose comes down, then subsequently gets up and flies off a long way it wasn't hard enough hit, it wasn't bleeding out it didn't suffer a broken wing. Many of them are actually KO,d by head shots and yes we all do it the difference is admitting it to yourself and trying hard not to do it again. On the same score of things I ate a mallard this evening that was stone dead in the air after being shot over decoys placed well downwind of me, it didn't have a single pellet in its body I got lucky with head and or neck pellets no.2 Remington Nitro steel, I thought it well within range but my mate who was sat right on the decoys commented on what a good shot it was at such range.

That's the thing isn't it we get lucky and people comment on how good a shot it was, we get unlucky on a long one and people say to us it was perhaps a tad too far (its not an insult ) .

The best cure for taking long shots is shell counting end the season with a high proportion of DRT to wounders and under 1-3 shots to kill and you doing little wrong- but that's not to say Nothing wrong! We must all strive to improve out skill and our equipment constantly

 

Antis? will always be antis and if people lie then those lies will be exposed and spoil our whole argument by discrediting our facts. There is no great chance of having a nice passing as a duck or goose in the wild, rarely will one go to sleep and just never wake up again. Starvation, cold, illness or accident , being attacked by a predator are the most common ends. If we do our level best to prevent mishap we commit no sin indeed death by shooting might even be the best end to have

[fenboy]

So with my season so far tally of 8 duck for 11 shots , with three of those shots at one duck and all dead am I to gather my range finding skills are fantastic ?

 

As I said earlier the goose would have been a dead goose if I had got my shot placement correct , there is plenty of pattern and energy at 45 yards , as for it being the second shot how much further do you think a pink would be in half a second ! if your getting birds go out of range in that time your too slow Kent

 

Despite all the comments good and bad you are the only one banging on about range , why do you think that is ?

[Guest stevo]

Fenboy ...

 

I have never had the pleasure of meeting you however .. I can say with confidence your NO Muppet , I have had various conversations with you via PM , with regards to your shooting ability and field craft I would your very much above average , I have read your reports ( backed up by other respected members who where there )and seen photos of what your capable of , blimey your nearly as good as me for Christ's sake !!!

 

what im trying to say is , YOU imho have nothing or reason to explain your actions , you took a shot at a legitimate target , and clipped the bird . we have ALL done it !

you didn't take a stupid shot , of that I willing to bet one of my nuts ( I can live with two )

you have done nothing wrong , as said too many people like to ride about on there moral horse , you are still one of the most respected members on this site in my book , and I for one will always have time for your comments/posts .

 

stevo.

Edited November 2, 2014 by stevo

[fenboy]

Thank you Stevo much appreciated .

[kent]

So with my season so far tally of 8 duck for 11 shots , with three of those shots at one duck and all dead am I to gather my range finding skills are fantastic ?

 

As I said earlier the goose would have been a dead goose if I had got my shot placement correct , there is plenty of pattern and energy at 45 yards , as for it being the second shot how much further do you think a pink would be in half a second ! if your getting birds go out of range in that time your too slow Kent

 

Despite all the comments good and bad you are the only one banging on about range , why do you think that is ?

That's quite a good question to pose. Go test that, I have 45 yards is very much the upper limit of Gamebore 3 1/2" BB and number 1 Remington Nitro steel BBB is nothing compared to the equivalent speed and load in the ten so don't go off what is said (10ga goes through 12mm ply while 12 super mag sticks a few in) Tests at a measured 50 yards. As for being too slow? well that depends on the speed the bird is going at and were your gun is placed, its hard to stop once you commit so commit at 45 and miss with the first (as you say in your post) how far is the second taken at? My mistake this evening was it was a good height when I committed but I misjudged its speed of flight I recon it got another 25 yards which considering a Pintail might go at 50-90 ft per second that could have added 30 yards! A pink will be capable of bettering that speed though will look slower, you fired twice right?. If anyone is faster onto a bird than 1 second from a slung gun while setting out the deeks I should love to see it. I bet most of us take almost that long to mount when in a hidey hole on the marsh - hence the saying "let them come in" works. I am not saying I never do but I fully try and except were the fault lies, things get the better of us not least when its our first

You wont get this yet I fear though but its the challenge of getting the birds in the right place that makes wildfowling on the open saltmarsh addictive to me, I could have shot a lot more duck right here at home and I full well knew that when I set off to go for duck on the marsh - but I don't it just doesn't float my boat. I haven't shot at a Pink yet this year I have had hundreds over me all high, had a fair number of Greys in the bag though and the duck are slowly building now ( I concentrate on Geese until the cold sets in). Getting a shot bothers me less than getting under them as if your getting under them all will come good. Sometimes I have to keep reminding myself of that last fact

[birdsallpl]

Not having a go at you kent, but let's take it to the extreme. And really bore everyone. If you shoot at a bird 45 metres directly above you and miss and the bird is flying at about 45mph which Pinks can, and it takes only I second to fire a second shot the bird is now approximately 50 metres from you. My mate Pythagoras told me that.

[E.w.]

That's quite a good question to pose. Go test that, I have 45 yards is very much the upper limit of Gamebore 3 1/2" BB and number 1 Remington Nitro steel BBB is nothing compared to the equivalent speed and load in the ten so don't go off what is said (10ga goes through 12mm ply while 12 super mag sticks a few in) Tests at a measured 50 yards. As for being too slow? well that depends on the speed the bird is going at and were your gun is placed, its hard to stop once you commit so commit at 45 and miss with the first (as you say in your post) how far is the second taken at? My mistake this evening was it was a good height when I committed but I misjudged its speed of flight I recon it got another 25 yards which considering a Pintail might go at 50-90 ft per second that could have added 30 yards! A pink will be capable of bettering that speed though will look slower, you fired twice right?. If anyone is faster onto a bird than 1 second from a slung gun while setting out the deeks I should love to see it. I bet most of us take almost that long to mount when in a hidey hole on the marsh - hence the saying "let them come in" works. I am not saying I never do but I fully try and except were the fault lies, things get the better of us not least when its our firstYou wont get this yet I fear though but its the challenge of getting the birds in the right place that makes wildfowling on the open saltmarsh addictive to me, I could have shot a lot more duck right here at home and I full well knew that when I set off to go for duck on the marsh - but I don't it just doesn't float my boat. I haven't shot at a Pink yet this year I have had hundreds over me all high, had a fair number of Greys in the bag though and the duck are slowly building now ( I concentrate on Geese until the cold sets in). Getting a shot bothers me less than getting under them as if your getting under them all will come good. Sometimes I have to keep reminding myself of that last fact

Good god what it must be like to be perfect a Kent.

[kitchrat]

OK, this is really interesting as I have been wrestling with my conscience after know I hit several birds that I didn't kill on my 2012 prairie trip. I didn't hunt wildfowl in 2013.

 

If you can get them in close, say 25 yards, they are a dead duck (joke!) but if you can't, they are tough to knock down. When eating the birds I did kill, there were very few wounds, compared to pigeons I shoot with No 6 lead. Perhaps I'm that bad, leading them wrongly??

 

The general principal here in Canada is "go up 3 shot sizes from what you would use in lead".

 

 

So you end up with BB for geese and 1 or 2 for duck, say.

Everyone knows that "speed kills" - the kinetic energy (1/2 MxV2)of a pellet is proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity, so if 1200fps is the base line, something at 1500fps (25% faster) has 1.56 times the energy. The momentum, (MxV), which helps the pellet maintain its velocity, also goes up but only directly in proportion to the speed.

 

One way to achieve higher pellet speeds, especially if you only have 2 3/4 in chambers, is lighter loads. Bigger pellets, higher speed, what can go wrong??

 

Hunting the internet, web pages, BASC and others advise me that if I use the correct choke at the correct range, I should have a good majority of the pellets in a 30-inch-diameter circle. I know some of you will disagree, but bear with me!!

 

Pellet Density.

They then go on with a list of "Minimum pellet count inside 30in circle to ensure a clean kill". OK, any 1 pellet in the head etc will kill, we are talking about averages. We've all heard that you need "4 or 5 hits" to be sure to knock it down. The figures are surprisingly high:

 

Small duck (teal) 145

Large duck (mallard) 90

Medium goose (Pink/grey) 65

Large goose (Canada) 55

Pheasant 100

Pigeon 140

 

Don't forget, this is for the whole of the 30-inch circle.

Now, again I know many will disagree, (for example, go to : http://www.hunter-ed.com/montana/studyGuide/Shotgun-Choke-and-Shot-Pattern/201027_700048225, but don't argue with me! He works on a 40-inch circle but the pellet density - pellets per square foot is what matters), the 30 inch circle from his figures approximates to:

20 yds for cylinder

25 yds for 1/4 choke (improved)

30 yds for 1/2 choke (modified)

35 yds for full - Many say we shouldn't use full choke with steel!!

I know the wads used in steel loads and the (perhaps) reduced steel pellet deformation may extend these ranges somewhat.

 

Then we go back to the pellet count in the cartridge.

Lets assume that a good pattern results in 90% of the pellets being inside the 30 inch ideal pattern.

 

1 1/8 ounce of steel BB is an average of 81 pellets, 90% of that is 73 "good" pellets, inside the circle.

 

So, at 35 yds, full choke, 1 1/8 ounce of steel BB, IF you get the target fully inside the 30 inch pattern, you can expect a clean kill of geese from your 73 good pellets, but not ducks!!!

 

At 40 yds, the circle has gone up to, say, 35 ins, the 73 good pellets are now spread over an area which is 36% bigger and the 73 pellets inside the 30 in circle has dropped to 54, just borderline for a big goose. THAT'S WITH FULL CHOKE.

Any less choke, or further away is into a lottery of "is it a clean kill or not"!!

 

 

My assumptions:

 

Bigger steels pellets than lead are better.

 

Speed is more important.

 

Cartridge load is even more important.

 

As a result, I went out and brought a 3 1/2in-chambered gun and use fast (1500fps+ cartridges, with 1 1/2 ounce loads, of BB or No 1 for geese and No 3 or No 4 for ducks and all of a sudden, birds are falling from the sky, stone dead!!!

The cartridges kick like hell and cost a lot, but if you only expect to get 8 or 10 shots in a day, so what??

 

PS. 1 1/4 oz (35gms) of No 6 lead shot, half choke, at 30yds should give you almost the 90% of your 225 pellets inside the 30 in circle, ie 200, easily enough to kill your pigeon, which it does.

 

PPS Most shooters radically overestimate the range at which they can kill regularly cleanly. A "super long shot" is usually a lucky long shot, unless you are George Digweed, but he uses Extra Full choke, to keep the pattern density up.

[Penelope]

That's the spirit!

 

I believe it's going to get a bit breezy towards the end of the week.

 

Thanks mate , I had worked that much out for myself , I guess they are entitled to their opinion though .

 

If anyone wants evidence to try and ban shooting they only need to have a peek on youtube , unfortunately I shoot in the real world where these things can and do happen , its less likely from a armchair .

 

I will be out in the morning for another try.

[marsh man]

Good god where on earth is this post going to end up , all Fenboy done was shot at a goose in range, dropped it but unfortunately it had enough strength left in it to get up and carry on , sad we know but in the real world of wildfowling it happens . It always have been like that in the past and I am sure it will be the same in the future . Books might say you should do this or do that , how fast the shot go , and so on but a lot of us old ones have spent more time on the marsh than in a arm chair reading books , and believe you me most of my shooting is at night when its nearly dark and if you can see there eyes . paddles , and thinking about all the other things been posted on here , I wonder how on earth I ever get anything at all , but using a cartridge what will do the job and years learning field craft is the way forward and spending less time reading books .......... Just get out there and enjoy it as its nearly half over all ready.

[fenboy]

That's quite a good question to pose. Go test that, I have 45 yards is very much the upper limit of Gamebore 3 1/2" BB and number 1 Remington Nitro steel BBB is nothing compared to the equivalent speed and load in the ten so don't go off what is said (10ga goes through 12mm ply while 12 super mag sticks a few in) Tests at a measured 50 yards. As for being too slow? well that depends on the speed the bird is going at and were your gun is placed, its hard to stop once you commit so commit at 45 and miss with the first (as you say in your post) how far is the second taken at? My mistake this evening was it was a good height when I committed but I misjudged its speed of flight I recon it got another 25 yards which considering a Pintail might go at 50-90 ft per second that could have added 30 yards! A pink will be capable of bettering that speed though will look slower, you fired twice right?. If anyone is faster onto a bird than 1 second from a slung gun while setting out the deeks I should love to see it. I bet most of us take almost that long to mount when in a hidey hole on the marsh - hence the saying "let them come in" works. I am not saying I never do but I fully try and except were the fault lies, things get the better of us not least when its our first

You wont get this yet I fear though but its the challenge of getting the birds in the right place that makes wildfowling on the open saltmarsh addictive to me, I could have shot a lot more duck right here at home and I full well knew that when I set off to go for duck on the marsh - but I don't it just doesn't float my boat. I haven't shot at a Pink yet this year I have had hundreds over me all high, had a fair number of Greys in the bag though and the duck are slowly building now ( I concentrate on Geese until the cold sets in). Getting a shot bothers me less than getting under them as if your getting under them all will come good. Sometimes I have to keep reminding myself of that last fact

 

Kent with due respect during my short time on this forum , you have without doubt been called a know it all by many different members on many occasions .

Have you ever stood back and asked yourself if they may have a point ?

 

You are of course entitled to your point of view , if I ever decide to go and hunt plywood instead of ducks and geese I will be sure to take it on board

[kent]

Good god where on earth is this post going to end up , all Fenboy done was shot at a goose in range, dropped it but unfortunately it had enough strength left in it to get up and carry on , sad we know but in the real world of wildfowling it happens . It always have been like that in the past and I am sure it will be the same in the future . Books might say you should do this or do that , how fast the shot go , and so on but a lot of us old ones have spent more time on the marsh than in a arm chair reading books , and believe you me most of my shooting is at night when its nearly dark and if you can see there eyes . paddles , and thinking about all the other things been posted on here , I wonder how on earth I ever get anything at all , but using a cartridge what will do the job and years learning field craft is the way forward and spending less time reading books .......... Just get out there and enjoy it as its nearly half over all ready.

 

Correct but people seem only able to select the bits they want to criticise without actually reading the full sentence or paragraph. Perhaps that's why actually reading is so unfashionable now (people have now evolved into only being able to comprehend short single sentences)