Lead Ammmunition Group

[Guest stevo]

 

What rubbish of course you can do it , It have with great sucess. Hp steel ( 36 g of No 3 ) will kill high pheasants as well as standard lead so in no way will the loss of lead be cause the end of driven pheasants. What might cause it is the loss of a few game shooters cant be bothered to use guns that will handle HP steel.

 

Hmmm yeah there be great in the sxs . Im sure that feeling like you've just had the **** kicked out of you after the first peg . Would most certainly make for a very enjoyable day ..... not .

[anser2]

Steppenwolf Quote "The data that shows that lead is poisonous for the countryside is absolute rubbish, it is data skewed to support the banning of lead. "

 

Wrong , Wrong , wrong. I put a host of links on here last year all from organsations that were not anti shooting showing the effects of lead on wildlife. The data was not skewed in any way. Lead was found to posion a variety of birds including quail , pheasants and pigeons as well as wildfowl. Its just that many on here have closed eyes and ears and do not want to beleve it. The evidence is there just research it. Even the game conservancy have found lead posioning in game birds.

 

Steppenwolf Quote " Steel shot is prohibitively expensive, banning led shot for hunting will mean higher overall cost of shooting.

 

Wrong again Steel is the same as run of the mill lead shells and cheaper than premium cartridges such as Gamebore black Gold.

 

gamebore 32 gr steel £5.50 for 25

RC 34 gr steel £6.70 for 25

 

Gamebore Black Gold £9.40

Hull 30 gr lead £ 5.75

Edited December 5, 2014 by anser2

[anser2]

 

Hmmm yeah there be great in the sxs . Im sure that feeling like you've just had the **** kicked out of you after the first peg . Would most certainly make for a very enjoyable day ..... not .

 

Gamebore 32 gr in 3s are great for game up to 40 yards in 2 3\4 inch s\s. For longer birds RC 34gr in 3s again are very good used through my AYA 3 inch s\s , provided you can master the different skill needed in using steel.

 

Others have said pre older English guns are are not outdated , but if they will not handle the loads needed today then they are. I hear even Purdy are producing steel proof guns today.

Edited December 5, 2014 by anser2

[fenboy]

I don't think you understand the issue here. The data that shows that lead is poisonous for the countryside is absolute rubbish, it is data skewed to support the banning of lead. Steel shot is prohibitively expensive, banning led shot for hunting will mean higher overall cost of shooting. It will mean much less shooters and therefore a death in our sport. Not to mention it is a stepping stone. once they ban it for hunting you can bet they will ban it for all uses, such as target shooting.

 

Be careful what you wish for....

Some steel loads are already cheaper than lead.

If lead is banned , which personally I hope is not the case , then the higher performance steel loads will become cheaper , at the moment there is only a very niche market for them and they are made in small batches, that would all change should there be a lead ban

[Whitebridges]

..........

 

Lead is finnished ,........

 

 

Complete and utter drivel. Stick to the marsh. Are you bitter and twisted the 'fowling organisations lost a battle or something?

[scotslad]

Does anyone know how many people go throu CAT scanners a year and wot the alternative is?

Not sure i;d fancy it after a few years of eating steel shot game.

Find it strange that this is not made a big deal off, while lead may/may not effect u chances are it won't, steel shot being pulled out from inside u will not be good for u.

 

as a letter in ST recently about some old fella who went under the knife for something and they ended up taking 30 odd grams of lead shot out of his apendix? (or where ever it accumulates) doctors where amazed had not done himm any harm and when tested his lead levels where normal.

[wymberley]

 

provided you can master the different skill needed in using steel.

 

 

Damn me! Apart from being the be all and end all, it's elitist too boot!

[Scully]

Damn me! Apart from being the be all and end all, it's elitist too boot!

[sitsinhedges]

Does anyone know how many people go throu CAT scanners a year and wot the alternative is?

Not sure i;d fancy it after a few years of eating steel shot game.

Find it strange that this is not made a big deal off, while lead may/may not effect u chances are it won't, steel shot being pulled out from inside u will not be good for u.

 

as a letter in ST recently about some old fella who went under the knife for something and they ended up taking 30 odd grams of lead shot out of his apendix? (or where ever it accumulates) doctors where amazed had not done himm any harm and when tested his lead levels where normal.

 

Metal in an MRI scanner merely warms up a little. It doesn't coming tearing out of your body like in a James Bond film.

[Blackpowder]

I look around local estates where driven game shooting has been carried out since the mid 19th century. Always plenty of wildlife small birds, game birds, vermin and raptors. I have yet to find or pick up a bird suffering from ingesting lead. I shoot a Dickson vintage 1989 gun, its beautiful, graceful well balanced and when pointed in the right direction can stop high pheasants dead in the air with 28g number 6 shot. This is but one 100 year old gun I own, each with its own history, some now with personal memories. I have no wish to exchange those for a slab sided O/U or heaven forbid a semi -auto. My best recent day saw me fire approx 77 shots through the Dickson, no headache, no sore shoulder which is not necesarily the case with other guns of similar weight. Long may lead be legal, to me those who seek its removal are searching for another wedge to bang in against shooting as a country sport.

 

Blackpowder

[Guest stevo]

I look around local estates where driven game shooting has been carried out since the mid 19th century. Always plenty of wildlife small birds, game birds, vermin and raptors. I have yet to find or pick up a bird suffering from ingesting lead. I shoot a Dickson vintage 1989 gun, its beautiful, graceful well balanced and when pointed in the right direction can stop high pheasants dead in the air with 28g number 6 shot. This is but one 100 year old gun I own, each with its own history, some now with personal memories. I have no wish to exchange those for a slab sided O/U or heaven forbid a semi -auto. My best recent day saw me fire approx 77 shots through the Dickson, no headache, no sore shoulder which is not necesarily the case with other guns of similar weight. Long may lead be legal, to me those who seek its removal are searching for another wedge to bang in against shooting as a country sport.

 

Blackpowder

well said !!

[rbrowning2]

I look around local estates where driven game shooting has been carried out since the mid 19th century. Always plenty of wildlife small birds, game birds, vermin and raptors. I have yet to find or pick up a bird suffering from ingesting lead. I shoot a Dickson vintage 1989 gun, its beautiful, graceful well balanced and when pointed in the right direction can stop high pheasants dead in the air with 28g number 6 shot. This is but one 100 year old gun I own, each with its own history, some now with personal memories. I have no wish to exchange those for a slab sided O/U or heaven forbid a semi -auto. My best recent day saw me fire approx 77 shots through the Dickson, no headache, no sore shoulder which is not necesarily the case with other guns of similar weight. Long may lead be legal, to me those who seek its removal are searching for another wedge to bang in against shooting as a country sport.

 

Blackpowder

100% correct.

 

Seach the web and view the damage steel shot can do to a gun -

 

There is no scientific eveidence that lead shot poses any danger to wildlife, humans or the environment.

 

But

 

Until the shooting organisations that we pay our money to (BASC, CPSA, NGO, etc) and publishers like IPC etc, all shout from the same pro-lead hymn sheet VERY LOUDLY and IN TOTAL CONCERTED EFFORT a lead ammunition ban will be LEGISLATED to rid this nation of "GUNS"

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by rbrowning2

[Steppenwolf]

100% correct.

 

Seach the web and view the damage steel shot can do to a gun -

 

There is no scientific eveidence that lead shot poses any danger to wildlife, humans or the environment.

 

But

 

Until the shooting organisations that we pay our money to (BASC, CPSA, NGO, etc) and publishers like IPC etc, all shout from the same pro-lead hymn sheet VERY LOUDLY and IN TOTAL CONCERTED EFFORT a lead ammunition ban will be LEGISLATED to rid this nation of "GUNS"

 

+1

[Steppenwolf]

Steppenwolf Quote "The data that shows that lead is poisonous for the countryside is absolute rubbish, it is data skewed to support the banning of lead. "

 

Wrong , Wrong , wrong. I put a host of links on here last year all from organsations that were not anti shooting showing the effects of lead on wildlife. The data was not skewed in any way. Lead was found to posion a variety of birds including quail , pheasants and pigeons as well as wildfowl. Its just that many on here have closed eyes and ears and do not want to beleve it. The evidence is there just research it. Even the game conservancy have found lead posioning in game birds.

 

Steppenwolf Quote " Steel shot is prohibitively expensive, banning led shot for hunting will mean higher overall cost of shooting.

 

Wrong again Steel is the same as run of the mill lead shells and cheaper than premium cartridges such as Gamebore black Gold.

 

gamebore 32 gr steel £5.50 for 25

RC 34 gr steel £6.70 for 25

 

Gamebore Black Gold £9.40

Hull 30 gr lead £ 5.75

OK so tell me where were all these people dying of lead poisoning all these hundreds of years that lead shot has been used for hunting. Don't you think if lead was that much of a problem it would have been banned in bullet manufacture already? Today it is about restricting gun ownership, do not be duped, it is nothing to do with "caring about wildlife" or the big one we like in this country "elf n safety".

[anser2]

Damn me! Apart from being the be all and end all, it's elitist too boot!

Wymberly steel needs to be treated differently to lead. To get the best from it you need to go up at least 3 shot sizes. You need to pay attention to your chokes to get the best patten , for example i have several American after chokes each regulated to a specific shot size and it makes a world of difference when shooting at long range. My HLS Undertaker choke is .700 ( almost full in lead chokes ) regulated for BB only and made for steel only. The result when using Winchester or Remmington BB are good clean kills at geese at 50 yards ( its usless with no 3 as the patterns blow ) and 70 % patterns at 50 yards. The results are just as good as I used to obtain with Eley Magnum lead shells. For high duck I have another after choke regulated for no 2 shot and again very successful. Most steel is faster than lead and again this takes a kittle adjustment and finaly you have to pick and chose your steel shells. There are some very poor steel shells out there , but also some very good ones , like Remmington , Winchester , RC and Gamebore.

 

 

Thats not being elitest , thats through trial and error experimenting with a variety of chokes, shells , shot sizes and cartridge speeds to see what gives the best results both on the pattern plate and more importantly in the field. Lead shells work differently to steel shells. In lead the patern gives out well before the pellets fail to have enough energy to penertrate , in steel the penertration gives out before the pattern. But by increasing your shot size from no 6 in lead to no 3 in steel you have a cartridge where the patten and penertration both fail at the same distance ( 45 yards ) so is a well balanced load.

 

 

As I stated shooting steel is a different to shooting lead and once mastered you will wonder what all the fuss has all been about using steel.

Edited December 6, 2014 by anser2

[anser2]

Steppenwolf, quote "OK so tell me where were all these people dying of lead poisoning all these hundreds of years that lead shot has been used for hunting."

 

Tell me where I have suggested that people are dying of lead posioning ? If anyone doubts lead posions birds just mix a hand full of lead pellets in the food of a pen of ducks and see how many are still alive a couple of weeks later. To save the being cruel to the birds i can tell you now - none.

[Scully]

 

 

If anyone doubts lead posions birds just mix a hand full of lead pellets in the food of a pen of ducks and see how many are still alive a couple of weeks later. To save the being cruel to the birds i can tell you now - none.

When and where was the above done?

I use Gamebore Super steel 3's in my old Winchesters. I can't deny it works just fine on ducks, but I can't say I've had to develop any new skills to use it; I simply use it instead of lead. Much prefer lead of course.

[anser2]

Whitebridges, I stand by my statement lead is finished. The public does not like lead in any form, its been removed from petrol, paint and a host of other things it was used for, its been proved to kill wildlife so its only a matter of time before its banned. The more we fight it the worse the shooting community looks on the eyes of the public and the more damage it does to the future of shooting.

 

The end of lead may not come next year or the year after , but its comming.

[Scully]

Why were ducks fed with lead poisoned feed?

[Steppenwolf]

Wymberly steel needs to be treated differently to lead. To get the best from it you need to go up at least 3 shot sizes. You need to pay attention to your chokes to get the best patten , for example i have several American after chokes each regulated to a specific shot size and it makes a world of difference when shooting at long range. My HLS Undertaker choke is .700 ( almost full in lead chokes ) regulated for BB only and made for steel only. The result when using Winchester or Remmington BB are good clean kills at geese at 50 yards ( its usless with no 3 as the patterns blow ) and 70 % patterns at 50 yards. The results are just as good as I used to obtain with Eley Magnum lead shells. For high duck I have another after choke regulated for no 2 shot and again very successful. Most steel is faster than lead and again this takes a kittle adjustment and finaly you have to pick and chose your steel shells. There are some very poor steel shells out there , but also some very good ones , like Remmington , Winchester , RC and Gamebore.

 

 

Thats not being elitest , thats through trial and error experimenting with a variety of chokes, shells , shot sizes and cartridge speeds to see what gives the best results both on the pattern plate and more importantly in the field. Lead shells work differently to steel shells. In lead the patern gives out well before the pellets fail to have enough energy to penertrate , in steel the penertration gives out before the pattern. But by increasing your shot size from no 6 in lead to no 3 in steel you have a cartridge where the patten and penertration both fail at the same distance ( 45 yards ) so is a well balanced load.

 

 

As I stated shooting steel is a different to shooting lead and once mastered you will wonder what all the fuss has all been about using steel.

I think you just answered your own dilema. Steel shot is **** so you have to increase the power factor by 3 to get the same performance as in lead. Of course those bigger pellet loads will also cost more. Keep on posting and eventually your argument will unravel itself.

[wymberley]

In lead the patern gives out well before the pellets fail to have enough energy to penertrate , in steel the penertration gives out before the pattern. But by increasing your shot size from no 6 in lead to no 3 in steel you have a cartridge where the patten and penertration both fail at the same distance ( 45 yards ) so is a well balanced load.

 

 

 

I don't understand this. Why is it not possible to achieve a synchronous failure of pattern and energy in lead when, as you say, you can do so with steel? I for one find it quite straight-forward to do. Also you mention No 6 lead and No 3 steel. So I can understand what's what, would you kindly give me the diameter of the No 3 steel pellet? Cheers

[Steppenwolf]

Whitebridges, I stand by my statement lead is finished. The public does not like lead in any form, its been removed from petrol, paint and a host of other things it was used for, its been proved to kill wildlife so its only a matter of time before its banned. The more we fight it the worse the shooting community looks on the eyes of the public and the more damage it does to the future of shooting.

 

The end of lead may not come next year or the year after , but its comming.

No it is you who don't understand and keep trying to appease the anti-gunners. Me? Screw them, lead is good.

[anser2]

Scully , I am off shooting for a few days in the morning and have to get my gear togeather and do not have the time tonight to do a serious search on experiments on lead posioning on ducks , but here is a abstract from one of the papers.

 

 

The Journal of Wildlife Management © 1978 Wiley

Abstract:

The toxicity of an experimental lead-iron shot containing 38.1 percent lead was compared with commercial lead shot in mallard ducks (Anas platyrhynchos) fed corn for 14 weeks. Significantly higher mortality occurred in ducks dosed with commercial lead shot compared to ducks given lead-iron shot containing comparable amounts of lead. Loss of body weight was indicative of the difference in toxicity of the 2 types of shot. Mortality was dose related in ducks given commercial lead shot; one #8 shot (73 mg lead) caused 35 percent mortality with higher amounts of lead causing 80 to 100 percent mortality. Ingestion of up to 2 #4 lead-iron shot (111 mg lead) caused no significant weight loss and only 5 percent mortality. However, ducks dosed with 5 lead-iron shot suffered 45 percent mortality and those given 16 shot 50 percent mortality.

 

 

And links for a couple of US govenment papers you might find interesting

 

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/lead_poisoning/

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/birds/pbpoison/symptoms.htm

 

posioning of both waterfowl and gamebirds

https://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0107%20Mateo.pdf

 

I cant find the link for this , but the subject is well covered in my copy of Federal Cartridge Company Waterfowl and Steel Shot Guide. Volume I; 1988.

It will take time , but there is plenty on the internet on the subject

Edited December 6, 2014 by anser2

[anser2]

Steppenwoolf-Quote"Steel shot is **** so you have to increase the power factor by 3 to get the same performance as in lead. Of course those bigger pellet loads will also cost more."

 

Wrong again. The cost of big pellets is no different to the cost of small pellets!

[anser2]

Wimberly , of course I would expect you could get the same synchronous failure in pattern \ energy in lead . My point is that by balancing pattern\energy with steel you can produce a steel shell very close to tthe effectivness of a lead shell countering the argument that steel is not effective.

 

I have not measured the pellets , but i used gamebore and RC shells