wymberley Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Absolutely, abolishing the tax return has nothing to do with making taxation easier for us, instead it's got everything to do with dealing with tax avoidance! Our banks will be dutifully telling the tax man about every credit we receive and no doubt each will be treated as taxable income unless we can prove otherwise.. not good, not good at all! Speaking personally, I don't have a problem here. As a lifelong common or garden employee I've had no choice to to pay any tax required of me. Now as a pensioner, nothing has changed. Consequently, if this change ensures that everyone else is subject to the same rules on a level playing field and the people who previously have been able by various nefarious means to avoid paying what they should are caught out, I'm all in favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Absolutely, abolishing the tax return has nothing to do with making taxation easier for us, instead it's got everything to do with dealing with tax avoidance! Our banks will be dutifully telling the tax man about every credit we receive and no doubt each will be treated as taxable income unless we can prove otherwise.. not good, not good at all! about time KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) What would you say to all your personal information and tax history being outsourced to India? What is the difference of having my information available in Cumbernauld or Liverpool or anywhere else? My tax history and personal information pursuant to tax are a matter of record to the tax authority, it matters not a jot to me where that is (at a data level). What matters is what is done with that information. My banking history is already made available to India through outsourcing of banking services, my employment payroll history was already made available to India through outsourcing of payroll services. What I would appreciate seeing is some detail around any outsourcing of HMRC services to India, can you point me in the direction to where I can find that please? Edit: KW I agree, I have no issues with anybody pursuing legitimate measures around tax management, if it is policy then those entitled to benefit from that policy should. I have a major issue with tax avoidance because people just don't fancy paying it. Edited March 18, 2015 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) This comment puzzles me. The taxpayer will benefit as a reduction in central government costs means either less borrowing (deficit) or spend can be redirected elsewhere. I don't support bloat and inefficiency, that is why under the last lot we acquired a massive deficit and astronomical debt. I am a believer that the state machine should be as small as it can be. Do you really believe that the money saved will not be wasted on some other 'government initiative' rather than being used for something constructive? Speaking personally, I don't have a problem here. As a lifelong common or garden employee I've had no choice to to pay any tax required of me. Now as a pensioner, nothing has changed. Consequently, if this change ensures that everyone else is subject to the same rules on a level playing field and the people who previously have been able by various nefarious means to avoid paying what they should are caught out, I'm all in favour. But as a common or garden employee, if you sold your car and put the money in the bank it would not be given a thought. As a sole trader if I do that then under these rules it would be classed as income and taxed and I bet it wouldn't be easy to get the HMRC vultures to agree otherwise. Edited March 18, 2015 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-boulder Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Yes, Red Ed. I wondered how long it would be before someone mentioned him. It would be a sorry day that he got into No.10. Nigel for me, not popular but he seems the only politician who resembles a human (poilicies aside)!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Mate it's in utter chaos at the moment,I took part retirement 2 yrs ago with the aim of getting out in Oct 2017 fully retired,but I doubt I will see it past April 2016. It is shocking what I have witnessed over the last 3 yrs alone,senior executives making decisions that have thrown HMRC into panic mode and left us seriously understaffed as a result of cost cutting and not one executive head has rolled. exactly, same old story no doubt the executives that make the bad decisions are paid ten times the average person, simply getting rid of one executive allows ten others to do the job better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Do you really believe that the money saved will not be wasted on some other 'government initiative' rather than being used for something constructive? But as a common or garden employee, if you sold your car and put the money in the bank it would not be given a thought. As a sole trader if I do that then under these rules it would be classed as income and taxed and I bet it wouldn't be easy to get the HMRC vultures to agree otherwise. This + 1 - Sole traders will be forced to incorporate to get a separate business account to put their revenue through....If this comes into effect Government services are protected as well and can't be carried out by off-shore services - they can write the software but can't have access to the data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Do you really believe that the money saved will not be wasted on some other 'government initiative' rather than being used for something constructive? But as a common or garden employee, if you sold your car and put the money in the bank it would not be given a thought. As a sole trader if I do that then under these rules it would be classed as income and taxed and I bet it wouldn't be easy to get the HMRC vultures to agree otherwise. To your first question, that rather depends who is in power, but yes I do. To your second point, it is incumbent upon you as a self employed person to keep accurate records. Although there is no paper return you will still have to update your digital tax account throughout the year, it simply means no end of year single exercise. If you sell your private car then don't enter that data into your tax account, if it is capitalised as part of your business then do enter it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) To your first question, that rather depends who is in power, but yes I do. To your second point, it is incumbent upon you as a self employed person to keep accurate records. Although there is no paper return you will still have to update your digital tax account throughout the year, it simply means no end of year single exercise. If you sell your private car then don't enter that data into your tax account, if it is capitalised as part of your business then do enter it. Regardless of the potential (very, very high ) of costly 'mistakes' to be made by HMRC, the more worrying underlying issue is that this is a continuation of the governments gradual eradication of rights to privacy which have been going on for years but mainly un-noticed. 'We need to install CCTV in your town - for your safety of course' 'We need to install cameras on the roads - for your safety of course' 'We want access to your employment, investment and bank records - for your convenience of course' I don't believe a word they say, this is all part of a bigger agenda to gradually remove control from the individual and it is naïve to think it is being done for our benefit. Edited March 18, 2015 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Speaking personally, I don't have a problem here. As a lifelong common or garden employee I've had no choice to to pay any tax required of me. Now as a pensioner, nothing has changed. Consequently, if this change ensures that everyone else is subject to the same rules on a level playing field and the people who previously have been able by various nefarious means to avoid paying what they should are caught out, I'm all in favour. You misunderstand me, I'm all in favor of everyone paying what they owe as I always have and always will. It's how income tax liable payments will be identified using information provided by banks that worries me. Civil servants don't have a great track record of building, buying and implementing complex systems with that scale or complexity, let alone cost effectively. I can see situations where legitimate payments into our bank accounts are erroneously treated as taxable income. Say for instance I sell a car on eBay and the payment is made directly to my bank account using PayPal, how do you think your bank going to classify that payment as one that shouldn't attract income tax? I'm thinking it won't and you'll have to log onto your HMRC online account to provide evidence to the contrary. I wonder what evidence would be considered satisfactory? Like pretty much every other government system ever built, they'll spend a fortune making a complete bloody hash of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Regardless of the potential (very, very high ) of costly 'mistakes' to be made by HMRC, the more worrying underlying issue is that this is a continuation of the governments gradual eradication of rights to privacy which have been going on for years but mainly un-noticed. 'We need to install CCTV in your town - for your safety of course' 'We need to install cameras on the roads - for your safety of course' 'We want access to your employment, investment and bank records - for your convenience of course' I don't believe a word they say, this is all part of a bigger agenda to gradually remove control from the individual and it is naïve to think it is being done for our benefit. Sorry, I am lost now. How is that so? By eliminating paper returns and having an online system is further erosion of our privacy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 You misunderstand me, I'm all in favor of everyone paying what they owe as I always have and always will. It's how income tax liable payments will be identified using information provided by banks that worries me. Civil servants don't have a great track record of building, buying and implementing complex systems with that scale or complexity, let alone cost effectively. I can see situations where legitimate payments into our bank accounts are erroneously treated as taxable income. Say for instance I sell a car on eBay and the payment is made directly to my bank account using PayPal, how do you think your bank going to classify that payment as one that shouldn't attract income tax? I'm thinking it won't and you'll have to log onto your HMRC online account to provide evidence to the contrary. I wonder what evidence would be considered satisfactory? Like pretty much every other government system ever built, they'll spend a fortune making a complete bloody hash of it. Where does it say there is an automatic link of your bank account to your tax account? The option will exist if you so desire to link your bank account, if it is a personal bank account then why would you? If it is a business account then it may benefit the millions of self employed that work on a paper based system to track their own affairs. If you are paid by an employer under PAYE then the tax man gets all their information that way, if you are self employed then you submit your own records into the tax account. If you tell fibs and get audited then you get fined and or prosecuted, nothing changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Sorry, I am lost now. How is that so? By eliminating paper returns and having an online system is further erosion of our privacy? Wow, is all that sand getting in your nose? How is them having access to your employment, investment and bank records not an invasion of your privacy? Do you by any chance work for the government (genuine question)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynGT4 Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Where does it say there is an automatic link of your bank account to your tax account? The option will exist if you so desire to link your bank account, if it is a personal bank account then why would you? If it is a business account then it may benefit the millions of self employed that work on a paper based system to track their own affairs. If you are paid by an employer under PAYE then the tax man gets all their information that way, if you are self employed then you submit your own records into the tax account. If you tell fibs and get audited then you get fined and or prosecuted, nothing changes. It may not be a requirement to link your account today but how long before it becomes one? All I'm saying, is that this is being sold to us as a way to reduce people's administrative burden when it's actually a creeping attempt to reduce tax evasion. I am fully in support of attempts to address tax evasion but they should have the balls to be open about that, they might actually get some support for doing so. To suggest self employed tax liability can be calculated using little more than the sum of credits and debits hitting a bank account is a gross oversimplification, which if you'd know if you'd been self employed or run a company. The results of those calculations are likely to be difficult to argue and hence many won't bother. I have every reason to suspect they'll make a complete bloody hash of it and, like they have many times before, waste a fortune in tax payers money in the process. At the end of the day, it's global companies that need to be targeted not the self employed! But as always, it's easier to pick the low hanging fruit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big-boulder Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 My guess is that we (as self-employed) will have to do everything on paper as we already do as a back-up to the new system which will no doubt take 10 years to get right. I think it will be more work for us all but if they get it right, then it will be great. I have my doubts though, government officials putting their noses into things they have no idea about = disaster. Keep the paper money coming in before they eradicate that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 My good lady is a self employed Chartered Accountant and the service her business receives from HMRC is shocking. Average wait time is 25 mins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Wow, is all that sand getting in your nose? How is them having access to your employment, investment and bank records not an invasion of your privacy? Do you by any chance work for the government (genuine question)? No I don't work for the government. Where did it say in today's announcement that they would have access to your employment, investment and bank records.? They have said they will have a digital tax solution, i.e. online access to a unique tax account for each individual or business that currently self assess. You can choose to connect your bank records to that if you choose, if you use a personal account for your business dealings then I suggest you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 It may not be a requirement to link your account today but how long before it becomes one? All I'm saying, is that this is being sold to us as a way to reduce people's administrative burden when it's actually a creeping attempt to reduce tax evasion. I am fully in support of attempts to address tax evasion but they should have the balls to be open about that, they might actually get some support for doing so. To suggest self employed tax liability can be calculated using little more than the sum of credits and debits hitting a bank account is a gross oversimplification, which if you'd know if you'd been self employed or run a company. The results of those calculations are likely to be difficult to argue and hence many won't bother. I have every reason to suspect they'll make a complete bloody hash of it and, like they have many times before, waste a fortune in tax payers money in the process. At the end of the day, it's global companies that need to be targeted not the self employed! But as always, it's easier to pick the low hanging fruit. Ah, so you are speculating that an announcement made today about eliminating paper based tax returns will somehow mean a mandatory link between your bank accounts and an automated tax calculation regime based on debits and credits to your bank account. I do run my own business now, prior to that was a director of a much bigger business. What was announced today was that instead of paper returns businesses or individuals as appropriate will have their own dedicated tax account. If you choose to then you can link that to your bank account or company accounts system. This linking of systems could eliminate some of the burden of reporting. My accounts system allows me to link to my government gateway and submit returns automatically if I choose to do so, it saves double keying. No difference. If you choose to do all your accounting off system and simply update your tax account with the relevant information, as you do with your paper submissions now. Nowhere today, that I have seen, was there any Machiavellian announcement of a plot to spy on your bank affairs through some tenuous link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 How is them having access to your employment, investment and bank records not an invasion of your privacy? Do you believe that they don't have access to this at the moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) This was looked at in 2009 under the title Operation Quantum and is not being ruled out. HMRC and its main IT contractors Capgemini and Fujitsu are looking at the potential of outsourcing some tax processing to India, say staff. It is part of an ambitious internal project "Quantum", the aim of which is to save about £205m a year. Last week it emerged that the British Council is planning to outsource more IT and other work to India and cut UK jobs - arguably a step toward the processing of UK data overseas. Under current policy tax records go overseas only in an emergency, for fault-fixing purposes. Ministers in this and past governments have always refused to allow sensitive records on UK citizens to be processed abroad routinely, whether that data relates to health, welfare benefits or tax. One reason for their reluctance is that it may be difficult to control who sees the information - and other countries may have less rigorous data protection laws and enforcement of them. *Against the background of record levels of public debt, the Government may drop the policy of not processing UK citizen data overseas.* Edited March 18, 2015 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Do you believe that they don't have access to this at the moment? No, I am convinced that they do, along with many other things we probably haven't even thought of. That is why I am so against voluntarily handing them anything that could help in their mission to control the masses. Nothing would suit them more than a compliant populous that can simply be told what to do instead of thinking for themselves. No matter how much glitter they put on the ****, its still a **** at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Thanks Davyo. I shall do a bit of investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) Thanks Davyo. I shall do a bit of investigation. This only got leaked in 2009 as documents where left on a tube train after an executive meeting between HMRC and Fujitsu/ Capgemini.I put the question to one of our seniors during the meetings in the summer and was told "we are not ruling it out"I am all for slimming down the business but it's been done wrong,frontline staff have been release before stystems are in place and proved capable.This is the reason for tax payers are on the phone for 30/45 mins just trying to get through. Edited March 18, 2015 by Davyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 This only got leaked in 2009 as documents where left on a tube train after an executive meeting between HMRC and Fujitsu/ Capgemini.I put the question to one of our seniors during the meetings in the summer and was told "we are not ruling it out" So we think India is the only place where data gets lost. And yet as you state above data is lost all the time in the UK. My experience of offshore operations, and I have performed the due diligence on many of them, that their process are more robust than those in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 Davyo, I had a look around this and now see where your post above came from. This government have put measures in place to move away from the massive outsource deals with the likes of Cap or Fujitsu, in fact the controversy now is how HMRC can multi source and still manage to retain the same level of tax collection. Hopefully the day of mega wealth earning for the big service providers at the expense of the tax payer is coming to an end. Thanks for highlighting it, I shall continue to read a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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