UKIP - merged threads

[Fisherman Mike]

Quite possibly and like many other things it may be cheaper to import than produce here , I do not see a queue of private consortiums wanting to re open the mines just yet

It may well come though with advances in mining technique eliminating the need labour intensity. There's still a lot of black gold in them there hills.

[kdubya]

Said I wasn't going to post on UKIP and true to my word I'm not...but the above statement is total unpatriotic ********...You are so anti establishment about everything in this country KW it amazes me you've lived here so long...you obviously have a big chimp on your shoulder.

I said you couldn't keep out lip must be bit to death :lol: and cant resist being personal oh sad or what.

 

 

KW

Edited April 21, 2015 by kdubya

[kdubya]

How wonderful that you blame Thatcher for the Falkland islands being attacked,I was always under the impression that the Argentinians attacked it.

You do not seem to be able to grasp root cause analysis, yes the Argies attacked, the root cause was the impression we were not interested in the Falklands which led them to attack, and in all truth had Thatcher not needed to raise her popularity, she would have left them to it.

 

KW

[welsh1]

You do not seem to be able to grasp root cause analysis, yes the Argies attacked, the root cause was the impression we were not interested in the Falklands which led them to attack, and in all truth had Thatcher not needed to raise her popularity, she would have left them to it.

 

KW

Is that why we had 22 royal marines there who showed that the islands were British and bloodied the Argentines nose,is that also why we had a governor on the island to show that it was British jurisdiction. It was quite clear who the islands belonged to and still belong to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/5153220/The-22-Royal-Marines-who-took-on-Argentine-Falklands-invasion-force.html

 

If we were not interested we would not post troops there to guard it.

 

As for your root cause analysis,you need to look to Argentina and their government of the day who were in deep financial trouble and had unrest on the streets, the invasion was a diversion created by them to sooth the populous,And they are doing much the same these days with huge problems at home it is better for them to have the population cast their anger at the British not their own failings.

Edited April 21, 2015 by welsh1

[kdubya]

 

I appreciate that you will vote for UKIP KW, but what coalition are you actually in favour of having?

Anything that will get us a genuine referendum and the cons consigned to history.

 

KW

[kdubya]

Is that why we had 22 royal marines there who showed that the islands were British and bloodied the Argentines nose,is that also why we had a governor on the island to show that it was British jurisdiction. It was quite clear who the islands belonged to and still belong to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/5153220/The-22-Royal-Marines-who-took-on-Argentine-Falklands-invasion-force.html

 

If we were not interested we would not post troops there to guard it.

 

As for your root cause analysis,you need to look to Argentina and their government of the day who were in deep financial trouble and had unrest on the streets, the invasion was a diversion created by them to sooth the populous,And they are doing much the same these days with huge problems at home it is better for them to have the population cast their anger at the British not their own failings.

Thacher actually was prepared to negotiate sovereignty of the Islands to Argentina, she considered them an unnecessary expense.

 

 

KW

[islandgun]

 

Quite possibly and like many other things it may be cheaper to import than produce here , I do not see a queue of private consortiums wanting to re open the mines just yet ?

 

It may well come though with advances in mining technique eliminating the need labour intensity. There's still a lot of black gold in them there hills.

there were 170 odd mines now reduced to half dozen, whatever the arguments were, for or against closing, I would like them to be re-open'd, not least because the areas are the most deprived in the country and we need coal

[welsh1]

Thacher actually was prepared to negotiate sovereignty of the Islands to Argentina, she considered them an unnecessary expense.

 

 

KW

Think you should look at the dates,

Sept 1967

July 1968

It seems Labour were there first, who would have thought it of a labour government.

http://www.falklandswar.org.uk/chron.htm

[islandgun]

Ah but, William Pit the younger (Tory) in 1790 renounces all colonial ambition to do with the Islands, (yer just can't trust the Tories)

[kdubya]

Think you should look at the dates,

Sept 1967

July 1968

It seems Labour were there first, who would have thought it of a labour government.

http://www.falklandswar.org.uk/chron.htm

Not talking about liebor and the Falklands though are we, we are talking about 1982 and the sinking of the belgrano ( my final post re the Falklands as we are way off track) Carrington resigned over the stance on the Falklands the head of the RN warned her of removing Endurance,the UN wanted her to hand them over, the US wanted her to hand them over, she had made indications she was prepared to do so,and then she withdrew the southern fleet, the Argies regardless of reason decided to preempt based on what was happening, Thatchers image was at an all time low, she was just about finished as a PM, she decided (without putting it to parliament?) that a recapture was the way forward and the rest is history as they say

 

KW

Edited April 21, 2015 by kdubya

[AVB]

Coalitions can work. Considering that Libour and The Conservatives have moved to the middle ground over the years does anybody think that a coalition between the two of them could work? Would lock SNP out of power!

[kdubya]

Coalitions can work. Considering that Libour and The Conservatives have moved to the middle ground over the years does anybody think that a coalition between the two of them could work? Would lock SNP out of power!

no no no never in a million years.

 

KW

[islandgun]

Coalitions can work. Considering that Libour and The Conservatives have moved to the middle ground over the years does anybody think that a coalition between the two of them could work? Would lock SNP out of power!

Thats the logical conclusion, the con/our -country, alliance no more need to vote

[welsh1]

Not talking about liebor and the Falklands though are we, we are talking about 1982 and the sinking of the belgrano ( my final post re the Falklands as we are way off track) Carrington resigned over the stance on the Falklands the head of the RN warned her of removing Endurance,the UN wanted her to hand them over, the US wanted her to hand them over, she had made indications she was prepared to do so,and then she withdrew the southern fleet, the Argies regardless of reason decided to preempt based on what was happening, Thatchers image was at an all time low, she was just about finished as a PM, she decided (without putting it to parliament?) that a recapture was the way forward and the rest is history as they say

 

KW

you brought up about thatcher wanting to give the Falklands away, or is Labour a sacred cow not to be touched.

You have to face facts that red or blue it doesn't matter they will do anything they want,let us not forget "weapons of mass destruction" and all the fall out that is still occurring just to bolster the ego of fool.

[figgy]

UKIP and the Green Party, just saying it could work.

[digger]

"regardless of reason". how would you want Nige to respond? roll over and have his belly tickled ?

[fenboy]

 

there were 170 odd mines now reduced to half dozen, whatever the arguments were, for or against closing, I would like them to be re-open'd, not least because the areas are the most deprived in the country and we need coal

 

I would love to see some of the mines reopened , just not propped up at the expense of the tax payer , I would imagine also that many of the skills needed have been lost .

[FalconFN]

 

I would love to see some of the mines reopened , just not propped up at the expense of the tax payer , I would imagine also that many of the skills needed have been lost .

I think the major problem with UK mines is they are generally deep pit mines so even though they could produce high carbon coals they just can't compete with the vast open cast mines in other parts of the world.

[kdubya]

I think the major problem with UK mines is they are generally deep pit mines so even though they could produce high carbon coals they just can't compete with the vast open cast mines in other parts of the world.

Make's no odds with the liebour left, they want carbon free energy by 2030 :lol: £200 plus a MW hour anyone

 

 

KW

[grrclark]

Jumping back a few posts around the prospect of coalition, there is a certain irony in that part of the outcome of a hung parliament is that we as the electorate actually lose quite a bit of say in our democracy.

 

If we elect a party with an outright majority that is fine as the largest single share of the vote was directed to what was in their manifesto, etc.

 

With a coalition then the deals are made in secret within the corridors of power, it is the grace and favour between MP's that will dictate what sort of government we have and what decisions they make, in some ways coalition governments really are undemocratic. We could have the parties with the 2nd and 3rd largest share of the vote forming a government.

 

Different if we elect a coalition up front, so if Labour/SNP came out and agreed before the 7 May that they were going to join in a formal partnership then at least we have a choice, but considering the deal between Tories and Lib Dems in 2010, that was a deal brokered in a room with the political chiefs after the main event, hence the massive dissatisfaction from both sides re tuition fees, EU referendum, etc.

 

There is quite a good piece in the FT about that very thing today.

 

I think the major problem with UK mines is they are generally deep pit mines so even though they could produce high carbon coals they just can't compete with the vast open cast mines in other parts of the world.

I believe that is true, the cost of simply maintaining our deep pit mines, i.e. keeping them dry and sound, is more expensive than the cost of importing foreign coal.

 

At some point in the future I am sure we will have reason to revisit the mines, but can't see that happening in my lifetime.

Edited April 21, 2015 by grrclark

[islandgun]

Jumping back a few posts around the prospect of coalition, there is a certain irony in that part of the outcome of a hung parliament is that we as the electorate actually lose quite a bit of say in our democracy.

 

If we elect a party with an outright majority that is fine as the largest single share of the vote was directed to what was in their manifesto, etc.

 

With a coalition then the deals are made in secret within the corridors of power, it is the grace and favour between MP's that will dictate what sort of government we have and what decisions they make, in some ways coalition governments really are undemocratic. We could have the parties with the 2nd and 3rd largest share of the vote forming a government.

 

Different if we elect a coalition up front, so if Labour/SNP came out and agreed before the 7 May that they were going to join in a formal partnership then at least we have a choice, but considering the deal between Tories and Lib Dems in 2010, that was a deal brokered in a room with the political chiefs after the main event, hence the massive dissatisfaction from both sides re tuition fees, EU referendum, etc.

 

There is quite a good piece in the FT about that very thing today.

 

I believe that is true, the cost of simply maintaining our deep pit mines, i.e. keeping them dry and sound, is more expensive than the cost of importing foreign coal.

 

At some point in the future I am sure we will have reason to revisit the mines, but can't see that happening in my lifetime.

I understood that we usually have governments elected with a minority of the votes, also its a big ask to get them to be honest up-front !. Regarding mines what cost is/was it, to subsidise miners wages to harvest a needed product, (now imported) compared with paying them not to work coupled with the associated loss to local businesses, I know this is a simplistic view

[compo90]

You do not seem to be able to grasp root cause analysis, yes the Argies attacked, the root cause was the impression we were not interested in the Falklands which led them to attack, and in all truth had Thatcher not needed to raise her popularity, she would have left them to it.

 

KW

I agree with KW.

 

Removing the defence of the falklands had the direct result in it being invaded.

 

Save a few pennies which ended costing millions and loss of life.

 

Would you vote for someone who would disband the police? Its the same thing, remove any defernece/deterent and expect criminal acts.......

[grrclark]

It is an interesting point about the cost of maintaining the mines versus the economic loss to closing them, but have no figures to have a reasonable discussion on that front.

 

One thing that is always true though that is publicly funded services are not wealth generating, just redistribution, when considered at a macroeconomic level.

 

If we were net producers it would be different, but sadly we are net consumers so the redistributed wealth is also declining.

 

I think we have had 2 or 3 coalitions that were formed pre-election, albeit outside of our lifetime.

[kdubya]

It is an interesting point about the cost of maintaining the mines versus the economic loss to closing them, but have no figures to have a reasonable discussion on that front.

 

One thing that is always true though that is publicly funded services are not wealth generating, just redistribution, when considered at a macroeconomic level.

 

If we were net producers it would be different, but sadly we are net consumers so the redistributed wealth is also declining.

 

I think we have had 2 or 3 coalitions that were formed pre-election, albeit outside of our lifetime.

So electricity supply and gas distribution when in public hands did not make a profit then? public services are that needed services be it from the guy sweeping the street to the nurse bandaging your wound, or the fireman attending your personal nightmare ( do we want to be concentrating on him not draining govt coffers whilst your kids are trapped in the back room of a burning house).

 

Should we be looking at making a profit out of these or considering them a drain when we do need them? and should we not be using the services that can and DID generate income to support and maintain each other efficiently and cost effectively? rather than going into the back pocket of shareholders,the majority of which take up to 80% of the wealth generated straight out of the country much better in my opinion, to plough it back in to public services.

 

I believe the days of an outright majority and 2 party politics are now gone they will never return thank god,a good working coalition or a vote by vote consensus will in my opinion be far more representative for us , rather than one of two parties pushing their own undemocratic self serving policies and prejudices on the majority who did not want or elect them in the first place.

 

 

KW

Edited April 22, 2015 by kdubya

[islandgun]

So electricity supply and gas distribution when in public hands did not make a profit then? public services are that needed services be it from the guy sweeping the street to the nurse bandaging your wound, or the fireman attending your personal nightmare ( do we want to be concentrating on him not draining govt coffers whilst your kids are trapped in the back room of a burning house).

 

Should we be looking at making a profit out of these or considering them a drain when we do need them? and should we not be using the services that can and DID generate income to support and maintain each other efficiently and cost effectively? rather than going into the back pocket of shareholders,the majority of which take up to 80% of the wealth generated straight out of the country much better in my opinion, to plough it back in to public services.

 

I believe the days of an outright majority and 2 party politics are now gone they will never return thank god,a good working coalition or a vote by vote consensus will in my opinion be far more representative for us , rather than one of two parties pushing their own undemocratic self serving policies and prejudices on the majority who did not want or elect them in the first place.

 

 

KW

well said