UKIP - merged threads

[The Croc]

Gordon R, on 04 May 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Fisherman Mike - I never had a handgun, but wonder how many lives the ban has saved in Manchester, Birmingham, London and Nottingham.

Fisherman Mike

"Yes I wonder...thousands I would imagine"

 

 

 

 

More likely none

Mike, legally held Handguns were never the problem, but illegal ones in the cities were and still are, criminals don't obey the law.

Banning Handguns did not affect those whose intent were criminal at all, and still doesn't, you want a handgun, go into a dodgy pub in any town or city, and you can get one, or a machine pistol, or anything you like.

The ban was purely political, inspired by b'liar who wanted the keys to No10, and didn't care how he got them.

The Tories unfortunately didn't have an option but to match him to try and keep support, and hopefully win the election

Edited May 4, 2015 by The Croc

[Gordon R]

Fisherman Mike misses the point when it suits and it suits quite often. :lol:

[al4x]

No, more the realisation that thanks to your beloved cons we will have had 5 years of miilipede and sturgeon something I would rather have than your scum,who looked after the top lads whilst bashing with a large club those at the bottom, (god help them if they had an empty bedroom, the fiends)

 

Still if your morality lets you dodge your tax, happily pay your immigrant workers a pittance whilst driving down wages and lowering opportunities for our own youngsters to actually buy a house ( rent a few do you?)and call our unemployed youth work shy to boot ( you dont do you ) keep voting the con men.

 

Not that it will help because 1st past the post self interest unrepresentative 3 party politics is gone, so sing along chum! hap, hap hap hap,hap happy days, elections like they need to be.

 

KW

Ok so your gripe is that they have brought in a bedroom tax to try and help social housing meet people's needs, rather than exceeding them. Personally most that I know who work and are at the bottom of the pile have seen minimum wages go up, tax free allowances go up etc etc

I really think you need to open your eyes and give up smoking the funny stuff as you are clearly delusional. Nige is a wasted vote as he is getting no where you need to look more at what will happen to the country in the next 5 years. A vote for Nige will do nothing

[poontang]

Nige is a wasted vote as he is getting no where you need to look more at what will happen to the country in the next 5 years. A vote for Nige will do nothing

 

That's what they said about the Lib Dems when Paddy Ashdown took over in the early 90's.

 

They've just spent the last 5 years in coalition.

 

From little acorns...

[welsh1]

I really think you need to open your eyes and give up smoking the funny stuff as you are clearly delusional. Nige is a wasted vote as he is getting no where you need to look more at what will happen to the country in the next 5 years. A vote for Nige will do nothing

If everyone like yourself continues the status quo we will be exactly as we are now,two parties squabbling and lying to get into power ,UKIP has shaken British politics and the main parties are worried hence their ever increasing desperate rhetoric.

 

Why would you want to keep everything the same?it's not as if it is working is it?

[grrclark]

It is working though, there is maybe a lot of dissatisfaction, but it is working for the vast majority.

 

The dissatisfaction that we are seeing just now is much more sociological than economical and is also what is seen after any recessionary period.

 

How the electorate behaves is really quite predictable.

 

What we do have this time are a few other parties who are being opportunistic in capitalising on that dissatisfaction.

 

Britain isn't broken as so many on here love to imply.

[welsh1]

It is working though, there is maybe a lot of dissatisfaction, but it is working for the vast majority.

 

The dissatisfaction that we are seeing just now is much more sociological than economical and is also what is seen after any recessionary period.

 

How the electorate behaves is really quite predictable.

 

What we do have this time are a few other parties who are being opportunistic in capitalising on that dissatisfaction.

 

Britain isn't broken as so many on here love to imply.

That's where i believe you are wrong, it's not working for the vast majority,there are certainly some benefiting from the cons policys, but it's not working for the large majority,the disabled have been hounded,the average worker is not better off ,what is given in one hand is taken with a tax somewhere else,we have people relying more on food banks than we have ever had ,young people can no longer afford to get on the housing ladder because of an overinflated pricing system on properties.

 

We are stuck in europe unable to pass many of our own laws,we are told we cannot stop anyone moving freely in europe even if they have a criminal record,every day more and more laws are block fed through europe. Our army is being drastically reduced ready for the european army to raise its head.

 

We have politicians who lie and use spin,if you asked them a simple straight question you no longer get an answer just a convoluted reply which means absolutely nothing.

 

Lets not kid ourselves Britain isn't broken, but you need to keep the vets number on speed dial just in case.

[SHOOTEMUP]

That's where i believe you are wrong, it's not working for the vast majority,there are certainly some benefiting from the cons policys, but it's not working for the large majority,the disabled have been hounded,the average worker is not better off ,what is given in one hand is taken with a tax somewhere else,we have people relying more on food banks than we have ever had ,young people can no longer afford to get on the housing ladder because of an overinflated pricing system on properties.

 

We are stuck in europe unable to pass many of our own laws,we are told we cannot stop anyone moving freely in europe even if they have a criminal record,every day more and more laws are block fed through europe. Our army is being drastically reduced ready for the european army to raise its head.

 

We have politicians who lie and use spin,if you asked them a simple straight question you no longer get an answer just a convoluted reply which means absolutely nothing.

 

Lets not kid ourselves Britain isn't broken, but you need to keep the vets number on speed dial just in case.

Well said, how long might it be that should we have civil unrest in the uk we end up with eu troops on our streets as our own army levels will be inadequate and then they may choose to stay to help us out

[grrclark]

That's where i believe you are wrong, it's not working for the vast majority,there are certainly some benefiting from the cons policys, but it's not working for the large majority,the disabled have been hounded,the average worker is not better off ,what is given in one hand is taken with a tax somewhere else,we have people relying more on food banks than we have ever had ,young people can no longer afford to get on the housing ladder because of an overinflated pricing system on properties.

 

We are stuck in europe unable to pass many of our own laws,we are told we cannot stop anyone moving freely in europe even if they have a criminal record,every day more and more laws are block fed through europe. Our army is being drastically reduced ready for the european army to raise its head.

 

We have politicians who lie and use spin,if you asked them a simple straight question you no longer get an answer just a convoluted reply which means absolutely nothing.

 

Lets not kid ourselves Britain isn't broken, but you need to keep the vets number on speed dial just in case.

Rob, I agree that there are a number of challenges and the rhetoric around the disabled and food banks is powerfully emotive, but still nothing like the majority.

 

The vast majority of the country is better off, sure if you take inflation into account then we theoretically have lost 4 or 5 years of growth, but in actual real terms the majority have progressed over the last 5 years.

 

The change in income tax thresholds have lifted more people out of tax or reduced their tax burden. Now in real terms that doesn't really mean a great deal of cash in your pocket over the course of a year, but it is an improvement.

 

I am not sure what other taxes that you mean, give me some examples please?

 

The European angle is concerning for some and not for others, we have not seen any further ceding of sovereignty to Europe through any recent legislation so nothing has changed in real terms in that respect.

 

The comments about a European Army are also just spin. I know that many in Europe advocate that as an option, but so far that is just spin from those who are against the EU.

 

As for politicians lying and spinning, yep they do, no argument. They pretty much always have, but I agree that we are becoming a nation that thrives on sound bites with very little substance.

[FalconFN]

Well said, how long might it be that should we have civil unrest in the uk we end up with eu troops on our streets as our own army levels will be inadequate and then they may choose to stay to help us out

And the drama queen award goes to.......

 

Civil unrest because of what exactly? EU immigrants? Will we be rounding up Frenchmen and escorting them to Dover or nightime raids on O'Flaherty's pub to incarcerate the Irish?

 

Britain isn't broken, but yes we have some problems and things are tough for a great many people - I've recently lost my job and my wife's an FE teacher and feeling the pinch as with many other in the public sector, but we are not about to weild our pitchforks just yet.

[kdubya]

Falcon FM couldn't reply to your post on the now locked UKIP thread mk2 , so this is the reply to your 85% not wanting UKIP quote.

 

And how many will vote for the cons? 30 odd% if that oh dear what a thumping majority not! so please dont use the inference of 85% as wanting the same old **** because they dont, sooner PR becomes the way the better, as I for one am sick to death of being controlled by what has been and will always be a twisted minority made up of a more selfish and non compassionate bunch of cretins than would be hard to gather deliberately.

 

KW

[welsh1]

Rob, I agree that there are a number of challenges and the rhetoric around the disabled and food banks is powerfully emotive, but still nothing like the majority.

 

The vast majority of the country is better off, sure if you take inflation into account then we theoretically have lost 4 or 5 years of growth, but in actual real terms the majority have progressed over the last 5 years.

 

The change in income tax thresholds have lifted more people out of tax or reduced their tax burden. Now in real terms that doesn't really mean a great deal of cash in your pocket over the course of a year, but it is an improvement.

 

I am not sure what other taxes that you mean, give me some examples please?

how about vat at 20% just to start,council tax increases(mine went up about £180 this year)

 

The European angle is concerning for some and not for others, we have not seen any further ceding of sovereignty to Europe through any recent legislation so nothing has changed in real terms in that respect.

 

The comments about a European Army are also just spin. I know that many in Europe advocate that as an option, but so far that is just spin from those who are against the EU.

You think it is spin? You better have a chat with your president,it will be discussed at the June summit.(full interview in Welt am Sonteg)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11457872/Create-an-EU-army-to-keep-back-the-Russians-Jean-Claude-Juncker-suggests.html

As for politicians lying and spinning, yep they do, no argument. They pretty much always have, but I agree that we are becoming a nation that thrives on sound bites with very little substance.

Edited May 4, 2015 by welsh1

[grrclark]

KW, around 66% will vote for Tory or Labour and another 12% or so will be Lib Dem. So in pure statistical terms the significant majority will vote for and therefor presumably want the same old.

 

Sure UKIP will get a chunky percentage at around 12% too, maybe higher. We need to wait until the results are announced of course, but I suspect the undeniable truth is that most will not want what UKIP have to offer.

 

I do agree with you about first past the post it is no longer fit for purpose and needs to change.

 

Edit: Welsh1, just seen your post, I know that people in the EU are talking about it seriously, but suggesting that it will happen is just spin for the time being.

 

If we are going to say that promises from politicians are lies and spin then we have to apply that rule across the board. We can either work based on pledge and promise and judge on results, or simply work on the basis of established facts and discount rhetoric, we can't pick and choose between the two.

Edited May 4, 2015 by grrclark

[kdubya]

KW, around 66% will vote for Tory or Labour and another 12% or so will be Lib Dem. So in pure statistical terms the significant majority will vote for and therefor presumably want the same old.

 

Sure UKIP will get a chunky percentage at around 12% too, maybe higher. We need to wait until the results are announced of course, but I suspect the undeniable truth is that most will not want what UKIP have to offer.

 

I do agree with you about first past the post it is no longer fit for purpose and needs to change.

equally the undeniable truth is that most dont want the cons, please dont add all the others up to get the answer you want, we are being run by just about 30% of the electoral vote ( only 2 to 1 over UKIP), er that's not a majority in anyone's book.

 

KW

Edited May 4, 2015 by kdubya

[islandgun]

Falcon FM couldn't reply to your post on the now locked UKIP thread mk2 , so this is the reply to your 85% not wanting UKIP quote.

 

And how many will vote for the cons? 30 odd% if that oh dear what a thumping majority not! so please dont use the inference of 85% as wanting the same old **** because they dont, sooner PR becomes the way the better, as I for one am sick to death of being controlled by what has been and will always be a twisted minority made up of a more selfish and non compassionate bunch of cretins than would be hard to gather deliberately.

 

KW

nice turn of phrase KW but you are wrong when you say couldnt gather deliberately because they WERE gathered together by big business to look after their interest's, although some would say that the rich must be looked after for the rest to benefit

[grrclark]

equally the undeniable truth is that most dont want the cons, please dont add all the others up to get the answer you want, we are being run by just about 30% of the electoral vote, er that's not a majority in antones book.

 

KW

I don't disagree with that, my point was that the majority want the same with the same being either the Cons, Labour and Lib Dems. Although strictly we were being run by a majority when adding up the Tories and Lib Dems from last time. I think it was something like 38% and 17% or such like, I shall check.

 

Edit: It was 38% and 23% for Tories and Lib Dem respectively, so 61% of people got what they voted for (of sorts). The opinions of people who can vote but choose not to don't count, so a convincing majority of votes cast for the two ruling parties combined.

Edited May 4, 2015 by grrclark

[FalconFN]

Falcon FM couldn't reply to your post on the now locked UKIP thread mk2 , so this is the reply to your 85% not wanting UKIP quote.

 

And how many will vote for the cons? 30 odd% if that oh dear what a thumping majority not! so please dont use the inference of 85% as wanting the same old **** because they dont, sooner PR becomes the way the better, as I for one am sick to death of being controlled by what has been and will always be a twisted minority made up of a more selfish and non compassionate bunch of cretins than would be hard to gather deliberately.

 

KW

My crass post was in reply to the crass topic designed to get a rise.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

That's where i believe you are wrong, it's not working for the vast majority,there are certainly some benefiting from the cons policys, but it's not working for the large majority,the disabled have been hounded,the average worker is not better off ,what is given in one hand is taken with a tax somewhere else,we have people relying more on food banks than we have ever had ,young people can no longer afford to get on the housing ladder because of an overinflated pricing system on properties.

 

We are stuck in europe unable to pass many of our own laws,we are told we cannot stop anyone moving freely in europe even if they have a criminal record,every day more and more laws are block fed through europe. Our army is being drastically reduced ready for the european army to raise its head.

 

We have politicians who lie and use spin,if you asked them a simple straight question you no longer get an answer just a convoluted reply which means absolutely nothing.

 

Lets not kid ourselves Britain isn't broken, but you need to keep the vets number on speed dial just in case.

 

Down to absolute basics - are you suggesting that because of conservative policies then some are worse off? Well that was bound to happen - we had a country that was bust (thanks to Gordon Brown and his 'no money left' policy), and something had to be done to change the financial direction that this country was going in. If you want to ponder on this, then look no further than Greece etc.

 

The disabled have been hounded? - the system was wide open to abuse, and it was.

 

Food banks are an emotive subject, and quite rightly so. However, people are using them because they are there - be it because they think that they are on the breadline, or are on the breadline, or because it is a free hand out.....

 

Housing prices - it's simply supply and demand, and the influx of immigrants isn't helping this either. Remember the good old days of 120% mortgages - this was a one way trip to disaster, and had to have one ending. People were 'taught' that you didn't have to save to find a house deposit, and it's now back to the good old days.

 

We now have politicians who lie and spin - well, it's news to me, as they have always done so, unless I have missed out on something.

[Fisherman Mike]

Sounds to me like the Kippers are really starting to clutch at straws...

[welsh1]

 

Down to absolute basics - are you suggesting that because of conservative policies then some are worse off? Well that was bound to happen - we had a country that was bust (thanks to Gordon Brown and his 'no money left' policy), and something had to be done to change the financial direction that this country was going in. If you want to ponder on this, then look no further than Greece etc.

 

The disabled have been hounded? - the system was wide open to abuse, and it was.

 

Food banks are an emotive subject, and quite rightly so. However, people are using them because they are there - be it because they think that they are on the breadline, or are on the breadline, or because it is a free hand out.....

Go and talk to some of these people who are having to take a handout,that's if they are not to ashamed to speak to you.

 

Housing prices - it's simply supply and demand, and the influx of immigrants isn't helping this either. Remember the good old days of 120% mortgages - this was a one way trip to disaster, and had to have one ending. People were 'taught' that you didn't have to save to find a house deposit, and it's now back to the good old days.

 

We now have politicians who lie and spin - well, it's news to me, as they have always done so, unless I have missed out on something.

You are right it's a real laugh out there being disabled and having to rely on benefits,being unable at times to eat because you need to warm the house,but then again all that money they are paid they should just winter abroad.

As both of my parents are disabled and have been for a very long time i think i have a bit of an insight into how people are treated in the system,in a two year period my dad was assessed 4 times the forms run to 50+pages and his health suffers every time because he starts getting panic attacks that they will stop what little he gets.

 

Have a laugh when you read this won't you

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2012/09/23/these-10-people-killed-themselves-because-of-government-cuts-to-their-benefits-r-i-p-labour-left/

 

 

[kdubya]

I don't disagree with that, my point was that the majority want the same with the same being either the Cons, Labour and Lib Dems. Although strictly we were being run by a majority when adding up the Tories and Lib Dems from last time. I think it was something like 38% and 17% or such like, I shall check.

 

Edit: It was 38% and 23% for Tories and Lib Dem respectively, so 61% of people got what they voted for (of sorts). The opinions of people who can vote but choose not to don't count, so a convincing majority of votes cast for the two ruling parties combined.

Sorry I forgot the 23% who voted lib, a left wing party really meant they wanted cameron and the far right in, wonder if that's anything to do with the libs now just about to be eradicated.

 

 

KW

Edited May 4, 2015 by kdubya

[Fisherman Mike]

You are right it's a real laugh out there being disabled and having to rely on benefits,being unable at times to eat because you need to warm the house,but then again all that money they are paid they should just winter abroad.

As both of my parents are disabled and have been for a very long time i think i have a bit of an insight into how people are treated in the system,in a two year period my dad was assessed 4 times the forms run to 50+pages and his health suffers every time because he starts getting panic attacks that they will stop what little he gets.

 

Have a laugh when you read this won't you

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2012/09/23/these-10-people-killed-themselves-because-of-government-cuts-to-their-benefits-r-i-p-labour-left/

 

 

I know plenty of people who are disabled most are not happy with the benefits and government assistance they receive...could always be more of course..

 

That Black Triangle propaganda should be read with a pinch of salt... I'm afraid unlike your parents there are many malingerers who could work but don't want to...

 

Plus if you look into most of those cases a little deeper a cessation or reduction in benefits wasn't the fundamental reason they took their own lives.

[grrclark]

Sorry I forgot the 23% who voted lib, a left wing party really meant they wanted cameron and the far right in, wonder if that's anything to do with the libs now just about to be eradicated.

 

 

KW

I daresay it is one of the reasons, but they still voted for them and that's what they got, albeit in partnership.

 

The tories are not far right and the libs are not particularly left wing either. They are both centre ground parties. In truth even the SNP that are regarded as being the most socialist party have not implemented any really left wing stuff in Scotland since 2007, they are very left in rhetoric and marginally left in action.

 

It's all speculation for now, let's see what happens on Thursday and I daresay there will be lots of emotion shared on the forum in the aftermath.

 

Tories will attempt to form a standalone minority government I reckon and we will have to see what the other parties choose to do. I think they have to demonstrate that they have the confidence of the house by the 14th or 17th otherwise Labour will be given the option to attempt to form a government by default. It will be an interesting 2 or 3 weeks.

[AVB]

Sorry I forgot the 23% who voted lib, a left wing party really meant they wanted cameron and the far right in, wonder if that's anything to do with the libs now just about to be eradicated.

 

 

KW

But you'll be dancing in the streets when Libour end up running the show with the help of the SNP with an overal percentage of the vote possibly less than the Conservatives.

 

To be honest we all don't have a clue how this will pan out. There could be some shocks either way. I wouldn't read too much into people saying that everybody they have spoken to will vote UKIP. Everybody I have spoken to says they will vote Conservative. It's just the type of people we mix with and doesn't reflect a true cross section of society.

 

I think UKIP will get 1-3 seats. As I said there could be a few shocks which would take that up to 5. government will be formed of a alliance of Libour/SNP/PC and one of the NI parties (can't remember which one is which).

 

I think Farage will struggle to get his seat due to strong tactical voting. In which case UKIP will be dead in 2 years. UKIP is Farage.

 

But as I said who knows.

[welsh1]

I know plenty of people who are disabled most are not happy with the benefits and government assistance they receive...could always be more of course..

 

That Black Triangle propaganda should be read with a pinch of salt... I'm afraid unlike your parents there are many malingerers who could work but don't want to...

 

Plus if you look into most of those cases a little deeper a cessation or reduction in benefits wasn't the fundamental reason they took their own lives.

That's what i like about a tory,no feeling from the neck down.