aris Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 in answer too your questions,,, can she spring an inspection at such short notice ?,, answer is yes does she have a right to demand a set of keys ? answer is yes you have stated " does she have a right to demand a set of keys to what is 'Our Home' albeit in her property " you answered your own question, "its her property she can enter her property at anytime she wishes "with prior given notice" and without notice but only if it was in the original tenancy agreement and/or she suspects a wrongdoing is happening ie selling/using drugs etc, you need to read the original tenancy agreement as it should be written in there,,,also get a new tenancy agreement written up, because you have rights also, in our tenancy agreements that we hand out ,,we always state that we can enter the property at anytime without prior arrangement if we suspect any wrongdoing, we also state if locks are changed a spare set MUST be given to us for security/fire reasons good luck and if you have nothing to hide then don't worry atb Evo There appear to be some twists in this though. 1) You have to give at least 24 hours written notice unless there is an 'emergency' (i.e. gas leak, fire, etc). http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2014/09/09/all-about-landlords-rights-to-go-into-their-tenants-property/ 2) At least one property lawyer doesn't think you (as a landlord) have the right to a set of keys: http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2010/07/13/locks-and-keys-%E2%80%93-what-are-tenants-rights/ The right of entry has to be for a good reason. I suppose an 'inspection' is a good enough ruse, though in this case they wanted access to the loft? One has to wonder how storing someones elses goods in your loft affects your own contents insurance. I think much boils down to the tenancy agreement too. Even though something may be in there, that doesn't override the law. You can't sign away your rights. You also have to balance between having a good landlord (perhaps you are on a good rental rate - doesn't sound like there is an agent involved), and the landlord having a good low-maintenance tenant who pays on time. If you are really worried though - speak to the CAB. Yet another reason to be a homeowner if you are in a position to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 I am a landlord. I use an Agent. There is a lease. For the most part it works well. AND not all landlords are ****s. You have no lease but your landlady seems happy with you there and the current arrangements, so it works well. Being aware of your rights is one thing but if people start quoting "their rights" from the outset, no matter what the circumstances, then things run the risk of becoming confrontational and unhelpful. Sometimes with no way back from adopted positions. In your circumstances I would agree with the advice my way of looking at it is , you like being there , she likes having you there , it would just be easier to meet her with a cup of tea and a smile when she arrives , give her a spare key , and part on good terms , you probably wont see her for another eight years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 You have been there since 2006 and she has had no reason to visit the property! My friend you are like gold dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 my way of looking at it is , you like being there , she likes having you there , it would just be easier to meet her with a cup of tea and a smile when she arrives , give her a spare key , and part on good terms , you probably wont see her for another eight years. I would agree with this, reguardless off the laws/leases. It's only common sense for the owner/agency to have a set of keys, esp for maintanence etc. (Does the owner pay for the gas safety ticket every year?) Also how would u feel if ur the owner with stuff locked in the loft that u now need/want and the tennants would not allow u access, no matter how good u were it would probably be the of the lease purely because of the attiude. I'vegot the feeling the owner does not think it is a big thing so i would not worry too much about, u are obviously model tennants Not sure how leases work in Eng but if were on a Short Assured Tenancy which is normal in Scot after 6months ur really on a rolling month to month contract so either side can terminate with 28 days notice for any reason, if ur happy it would be a shame to upset the owner but at the same time tennants like urself aare as rare as hens teeth which is not always appreciated by some owners. But i really dinae think the owner thinks there is a problem and just wants some stuff out the loft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 I have never rented being fortunate to have bought my own property at a young age. However have been looking to rent to fill the gap between house sale and purchase. All I can say is I feel very sorry for anybody who has to live in rented through private landlords. I couldn't live with the uncertainty of whether I was going to be booted out at the end of the contract. My parents lived the majority of their lives in a council house and it worked well for them. They had assurance of the home and no 'landlord' demanding that they have keys and the right to come round when they want (which effectively means they could if they have the keys). I think the explosion in buy to let properties and the demise of council properties (I assume driven by right to buy) is a bad thing. And I am a Conservative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munzy Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 @ Munzy, I'm not sure I'd want you as a landlord To be fair you sound like a perfect tenant to me, the most important things is just not to fall out with each other. If you really don't want her to have a key then sit down over a cuppa and explain why and try to get her to understand but be prepared to bend. It's a bit like the barking dog thread at the moment, if people had a civil conversation and were willing to compromise before acting then minor issues could be nipped in the bud. Best of luck with it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) in answer too your questions,,, can she spring an inspection at such short notice ?,, answer is yes does she have a right to demand a set of keys ? answer is yes you have stated " does she have a right to demand a set of keys to what is 'Our Home' albeit in her property " you answered your own question, "its her property she can enter her property at anytime she wishes "with prior given notice" and without notice but only if it was in the original tenancy agreement and/or she suspects a wrongdoing is happening ie selling/using drugs etc, you need to read the original tenancy agreement as it should be written in there,,,also get a new tenancy agreement written up, because you have rights also, in our tenancy agreements that we hand out ,,we always state that we can enter the property at anytime without prior arrangement if we suspect any wrongdoing, we also state if locks are changed a spare set MUST be given to us for security/fire reasons good luck and if you have nothing to hide then don't worry atb Evo This reminds me why no one should seek and take legal advice off a forum, because broadly it's completely wrong Incidentally, we see all manner of DIY tenancy agreements where landlords and letting agents insert all manner of weird and whacky and made up clauses because they like the sound of it or just fancy it. Just because it's in an AST does not make it lawful. The classic example is where someone robs a forfeiture clause from a commercial lease and inserts the right of re-entry in a domestic AST should rent be unpaid for 14 days. If you did that as a landlord you'd get nicked Edited May 27, 2015 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munzy Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) I have never rented being fortunate to have bought my own property at a young age. However have been looking to rent to fill the gap between house sale and purchase. All I can say is I feel very sorry for anybody who has to live in rented through private landlords. I couldn't live with the uncertainty of whether I was going to be booted out at the end of the contract. My parents lived the majority of their lives in a council house and it worked well for them. They had assurance of the home and no 'landlord' demanding that they have keys and the right to come round when they want (which effectively means they could if they have the keys). I think the explosion in buy to let properties and the demise of council properties (I assume driven by right to buy) is a bad thing. And I am a Conservative. Whilst I'm sure many landlords take the mick the vast majority don't. I tend to see the distinction between "professional" landlords and "amateurs". Those homeowners who have gone travelling or moved in with a partner and decided to let their house out rather than sell it are often the worst. The house was their home, decorated to their tastes and they feel protective over it, this is a recipe for a bad landlord, constantly inspecting and making demands which remove the tenants right to a peaceful existence. I'm a professional landlord, I'm hands-off, do one annual inspection, tackle any issues the tenant throws up and expect some respect for the property in return. As for my tenants living under threat of eviction it's the exact opposite, I don't want a tenancy void; if they keep paying and respect the place I want them paying the rent forever! Sounds like the OP has what I call an "amateur" landlord but the relationship sounds like it works so just try not to rock the boat. Edited May 27, 2015 by Munzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Melb3 has the best approach to the situation but the thread has spun out of control as the arm chair lawyers get stuck in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Id agree with munzy above the vast % of landlords would not want to come round and check very often, when i had a flat only time i went round was to fix any problems which never happened that much. Tried to keep them clean and tidy and well looked after and the tennants tend to do the same. U do sound an ideal tennant no landlord would want to lose u, but if u both get each others back up it will only end 1 way, which would be a shame, cup of tea with her bit of craic about her holidays etc and give her a hand with the boxes out the loft and u will not see her again for long enough Edited May 27, 2015 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Geordie Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Years ago when I lived in Beadnell, I was burgled whilst living in private rented accom. I repaired the door frame, replaced the locks. I also pulled out the botched sealant job around the windows and sealed them properly. Then the bedroom wall was moldy. I stripped off the paint treat the wall and repainted. When the landlord took posession of the house he was over the moon with the state of the place. Infact I even got my deposit back in CASH. In a tenency, it's YOU who has to live with the state of the house. I see loads of people who live in a tip, and say, "it's rented" It's still your home, I think there are a lot of awkward land lords who lookk for any issues to kick out a tennant. My ex brother in law was one! A young mum had the window broken. He kicked off and took her 3 piece suite to pay for the new window. I said thats what landlords insurance is for, and was told to **** off and mind my business. Come the finish She complained and he kicked her out. My friend took a cottage on a big northumberland estate. Completely renovated the house. New floors, bathroom etc. Landscaped the garden and again had NO complaint from the landlord. I think it is appauling that they can simply let themselves in, unless in an emergency. Granted, they should be afforded access by mutually agreed discussion, ut to simply walk in, in my view is no dkffefent to being burgled. Your home and privacy has been invaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 U cannot simply walk in, as i understand/understood (no longer got my flt and laterly let an agent deal with day to day and i just done maintanece etc) it u can give 24hrs written notice and let urself in but in reality most normal leople would ask when suits the tennants and work round that but if being constantly fobbed off u can use ur 'right'. Thats shocking wot ur bro in law done, noo excuses, but there will be as many bad tennants s bad landlords BUT the majority of both landlords and tennants will be spot on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 More, many more, bad tenants, than there are bad landlords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie-fox Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Been involved with a very similar thing recently and as far as I was told it is legal for the tennant to change the locks. I rent a house to a tenant and if he changed the locks his feet wouldn't touch the ground...it's not his house it's mine, but he's a nice bloke and no trouble so he's not the type to do that without telling me, I guess it shows a lack of respect and trust if locks start getting changed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 I rent a house to a tenant and if he changed the locks his feet wouldn't touch the ground...it's not his house it's mine, but he's a nice bloke and no trouble so he's not the type to do that without telling me, I guess it shows a lack of respect and trust if locks start getting changed.. I get that it you own the house but he pays you rent for it. And I would expect the paying of rent to include a right of privacy and security. I'm not sure my contents insurer would like it if I said that I didn't know who had access to the house. I would suspect that it would invalidate the insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdog Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Most replies are giving incorrect information about the 24 hour rule. A Landlord cannot access a property after just giving 24 hours written notice, and further a text message is not classified as written notice. The Tenant has to agree to allow entry, if the landlord enters without permission the Landlord is in breach of covenant. Tenant cannot unreasonably refuse entry, however stating that tomorrow is a bad time and arranging another day is not unreasonable refusal. If you (the Tenant) completely refuse entry the Landlord still cannot enter the property until they have obtained a court order from the courts. You are also under no obligation to give the Landlord a key to the property, as long as you allow reasonable access. Although any damage done when changing the locks might be deducted from your deposit, also if there is an emergency and the landlord has to force entry because of the lock change, then you the Tenant would be liable for the related damage. It is all related to a Tenants right to quite enjoyment of the property. Reasonable Refusal A tenant has the right to refuse entry even if 24 hours notice has been given, if the time or date is not convenient and reasonable for their purposes. The tenant may have made a prior arrangement to have guests or may not be able to attend due to work or other commitments. The tenant may simply be away for a break or a holiday and not wish to allow strangers into their home without their presence. Any clause in a contract that states a landlord has the right of entry with or without the tenant’s presence or consent is likely to be invalid and or in breach of the Unfair Terms Regulations Unreasonable Refusal A tenant however should not refuse every request made for an inspection or for repairs made by the landlord. To refuse every time would be in breach of the tenants obligations under statute. Edited May 27, 2015 by zipdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiDriver Posted May 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Thank You Everyone for your input, Equally to those who're Professionally Qualified and those qualified by experience. I would hope we might be model tenants in that we pay on time all the time, we respect the property and handle most day to day run of the mill things ourselves such as a bit of decorating, keep the garden tidy, I even find time to to tidy/maintain the communal parking area As I said earlier, we were burgled 3-4 years ago and locks were changed as a precautionary measure, I'm not sure if my landlady was told or not, pretty sure she may have been after the event as she may well have been abroad when it happened. I haven't sought to keep keys from her, however I am I suppose a little uncomfortable at the thought of uninvited visits, NOT because I've anything untoward going on, Or anything to hide, Simply....it's my home. If nothing else, she'll turn up tomorrow, clamber up the ladder into the loft and I'll stay at bottom and hold the ladder Aiyyyy We'll give her a set of keys maybe have a natter, ask about some minor alterations/improvements (replacing a missing kitchen and hallway door) we'd like to do and find out where she's off to next........and hopefully... We won't hear from her for another year or two/three or whenever. Edited May 27, 2015 by TaxiDriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie-fox Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 I get that it you own the house but he pays you rent for it. And I would expect the paying of rent to include a right of privacy and security. I'm not sure my contents insurer would like it if I said that I didn't know who had access to the house. I would suspect that it would invalidate the insurance. That's true mate but I'd expect him to tell me if he'd changed the locks tho...each to there own I guess but it's my house at the end of the day and if I want access then it's only fair that I have a key...I'd never go in without him being there or his knowledge first...imagine if he was at work and his neighbour called to say water was pouring out under the door or something id need to get in ASAP.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 but it's my house at the end of the day and if I want access then it's only fair that I have a key... When you start leasing that just doesn't apply in the way most people think it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munzy Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Thank You Everyone for your input, Equally to those who're Professionally Qualified and those qualified by experience. I would hope we might be model tenants in that we pay on time all the time, we respect the property and handle most day to day run of the mill things ourselves such as a bit of decorating, keep the garden tidy, I even find time to to tidy/maintain the communal parking area As I said earlier, we were burgled 3-4 years ago and locks were changed as a precautionary measure, I'm not sure if my landlady was told or not, pretty sure she may have been after the event as she may well have been abroad when it happened. I haven't sought to keep keys from her, however I am I suppose a little uncomfortable at the thought of uninvited visits, NOT because I've anything untoward going on, Or anything to hide, Simply....it's my home. If nothing else, she'll turn up tomorrow, clamber up the ladder into the loft and I'll stay at bottom and hold the ladder Aiyyyy We'll give her a set of keys maybe have a natter, ask about some minor alterations/improvements (replacing a missing kitchen and hallway door) we'd like to do and find out where she's off to next........and hopefully... We won't hear from her for another year or two/three or whenever. The perfect outcome for both parties! Well done, if only all tenants were like you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Without wanting to be too controversial, there is a huge amount of wrong information in what you have put here. sorry to offend you but please read my statement again and you will find I am correct, could you point out where you think I am wrong ? the landlord is entitled to a set of keys and can also enter her property with prior written notice as I stated,,what part of that is wrong we have five bedsits and a 3 bedroom flat and these are written into our tenancy agreement of which the tenants have agreed and signed,,jf you re read my statement you will see what I am saying and it is totally correct, we have spare keys to all our tenants rooms, they are not allowed to change locks without informing ourselves first, we also check our property on a weekly basis, we also don't accept doleites either as they are nothing but trouble, a tenancy agreement is a tenancy agreement,and signed by both, if they don't like our rules its very simple they don't sign the agreement and don't move in,,we have been messed about in the past and it is the reason we had this written into the agreement for the tenant to sign, sorry but re read what I said, you will find it is correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Take it from me you're wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Take it from me you're wrong explain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) sorry to offend you but please read my statement again and you will find I am correct, could you point out where you think I am wrong ? the landlord is entitled to a set of keys and can also enter her property with prior written notice as I stated,,what part of that is wrong we have five bedsits and a 3 bedroom flat and these are written into our tenancy agreement of which the tenants have agreed and signed,,jf you re read my statement you will see what I am saying and it is totally correct, we have spare keys to all our tenants rooms, they are not allowed to change locks without informing ourselves first, we also check our property on a weekly basis, we also don't accept doleites either as they are nothing but trouble, a tenancy agreement is a tenancy agreement,and signed by both, if they don't like our rules its very simple they don't sign the agreement and don't move in,,we have been messed about in the past and it is the reason we had this written into the agreement for the tenant to sign, sorry but re read what I said, you will find it is correct To put it bluntly, you're wrong on, I think without exception, every point. The landlord doesn't have a right to keys, nor can the tenant be requested not to change the locks Written notice can still be over turned by tenant without comeback Checking the property on a weekly basis is in direct opposition to allowing "quiet enjoyment" as per HA Most of what you have decided to write into your contracts goes against the HA and isn't worth the ink it's written in. Landlords seem to think whatever they write into a TA is fine, but ultimately statute is paramount. You are allowed to choose tenants based on receiving benefits, assuming you are a landlord and not an agency I've taken the time to read your points, but again, my years in lettings tells me you're still wrong. Sorry mate. Edited to add - It's interesting the people on here who think that because they own the house they have a given right to have keys or enter whenever they like. I often wonder if these people have a mortgage and wouldn't mind finding their bank manager coming round to check how the house looks whenever they choose, or their car on finance and the finance company having keys to just run it round the block a few times whilst they are at work Edited May 27, 2015 by LondonLuke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie-fox Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 When you start leasing that just doesn't apply in the way most people think it does. true mate.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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