10 gauge carts

[derbyduck]

 

Not sure about that , I bet if you took the country as a whole there are more 16s than 10s , I have a 16 but don't worry George I only use a box of cartridges a year in it!

well if your not so sure ! let me ask how many of your shooting friends own or shoot 16s ? out of at least 50 or so people that ive shot with over the years (54yrs) only three used a 16bore and I was one of those three! one was a german drilling 16 x 16x22 the other was a bolt action single shot, my gun was a Thomas Wild side by side 2/1/2 chambered boxlock ,which I did not use much as it was neither here or there "to light for heavy work & to heavy for light work " , I do know of a least 20 pople that shoot 10s and i'm one of them!

so go on then fenboy how many do you know that shoot 16s? and how many do you know who shoot 10s ?

also why did you jump on my post ?

DD

Edited November 27, 2015 by derbyduck

[super sharp shooter]

I only know one person that uses 16 bore

Edited November 27, 2015 by super sharp shooter

[rjimmer]

I rowed a gun, who had a Greener 16-bore, on a coot drive once about 30 years ago.

[Old farrier]

Hi

I use all three however the 10 is now a non toxic beast

The 16 a light game gun for walked up days so light lead loads are adequate

The 410 is used the most of the three for clays the kids and a check the trap / snare gun

George is in business to make money he needs to know which he will sell the most of and be the most profitable long term

[neutron619]

In 35yrs shooting only ever seen one 16 bore and that was 30yrs ago go for the 10g

 

Seconded. In five years shooting, I've only ever seen two. The first one convinced me I wanted one and the second one is the one I now own. I don't expect to see another. Lovely to shoot, but they're right - no market for them.

 

One comment regarding the velocity question (i.e. super fast or not) - it won't be possible to load cartridges at 1500fps+ and still chuck out a load that justifies using a 10 gauge. 44g of shot at 1400fps is roughly where the CIP momentum limit for 10 gauge guns lies, which is barely more than you'd put down a 3½" 12 gauge. If you want a 1500fps cartridge you'll be down to 41g and if you're looking for 1600fps, less than 38g.

 

The only place the 10 gauge is really going to give an advantage over a 12 is in greater weight of shot - 48g at 1300fps or so is probably about the right balance.

 

One final thing. Assuming you are going to get this cartridge proofed by Birmingham or one of the other CIP houses, you'll be made to put a warning on the box saying that chokes less than half (i.e. up to 3/8 but not including half) are the only ones that can be used. For that reason, it won't be worth putting the very largest shot into them. BBs will probably work assuming a 60-70% pattern from a 3/8 choke, but BBB's probably will not - certainly you're not going to have a 60 yard cartridge there, even for Canada geese.

[rjimmer]

Now were on to chokes, what does a 10-bore muzzle diameter of .715" signify?

[neutron619]

Now were on to chokes, what does a 10-bore muzzle diameter of .715" signify?

 

0.060" of constriction from a nominal 10 gauge barrel, which is rather a lot.

 

However, it's not possible to label it ¼, ½, or anything else because we don't know the actual bore diameter (for one version of choke labelling) or the performance it gives (for the other approach).

 

Gut feeling though, says that it's likely to signify a counterproductive approach to achieving good patterns.

Edited November 27, 2015 by neutron619

[rjimmer]

 

0.060" of constriction from a nominal 10 gauge barrel, which is rather a lot.

 

However, it's not possible to label it ¼, ½, or anything else because we don't know the actual bore diameter (for one version of choke labelling) or the performance it gives (for the other approach).

 

Gut feeling though, says that it's likely to signify a counterproductive approach to achieving good patterns.

At last, someone who does not think that chokes are defined by measurements. The tightest after-market choke measurements I have found give .720" and .705". http://refugeforums.com/refuge/threads/720-terror-choke.283855/

[motty]

 

Seconded. In five years shooting, I've only ever seen two. The first one convinced me I wanted one and the second one is the one I now own. I don't expect to see another. Lovely to shoot, but they're right - no market for them.

 

One comment regarding the velocity question (i.e. super fast or not) - it won't be possible to load cartridges at 1500fps+ and still chuck out a load that justifies using a 10 gauge. 44g of shot at 1400fps is roughly where the CIP momentum limit for 10 gauge guns lies, which is barely more than you'd put down a 3½" 12 gauge. If you want a 1500fps cartridge you'll be down to 41g and if you're looking for 1600fps, less than 38g.

 

The only place the 10 gauge is really going to give an advantage over a 12 is in greater weight of shot - 48g at 1300fps or so is probably about the right balance.

 

One final thing. Assuming you are going to get this cartridge proofed by Birmingham or one of the other CIP houses, you'll be made to put a warning on the box saying that chokes less than half (i.e. up to 3/8 but not including half) are the only ones that can be used. For that reason, it won't be worth putting the very largest shot into them. BBs will probably work assuming a 60-70% pattern from a 3/8 choke, but BBB's probably will not - certainly you're not going to have a 60 yard cartridge there, even for Canada geese.

I believe you're wrong on a couple of counts.

Firstly the Gamebore Rhinos were 49 gm and were purported to have a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps.

Secondly, tight chokes are fine with BB steel. I don't know where your information comes from.

[JDog]

I know this thread is not about gun sizes but I will add a recent experience.

 

Ten days ago I hosted a let pheasant and partridge day. When the guns turned up it was clear that they were all 'Gentlemen' of the first order. Four had 16 bores, two had 20 bores, one had a 28 bore and only one had a 12 bore, all side by sides. This team could really shoot but on a windy day the 28 bore man was under gunned.

[fenboy]

well if your not so sure ! let me ask how many of your shooting friends own or shoot 16s ? out of at least 50 or so people that ive shot with over the years (54yrs) only three used a 16bore and I was one of those three! one was a german drilling 16 x 16x22 the other was a bolt action single shot, my gun was a Thomas Wild side by side 2/1/2 chambered boxlock ,which I did not use much as it was neither here or there "to light for heavy work & to heavy for light work " , I do know of a least 20 pople that shoot 10s and i'm one of them!

so go on then fenboy how many do you know that shoot 16s? and how many do you know who shoot 10s ?

also why did you jump on my post ?

DD

Just because you know of more people that have 10 gauges does not mean there are more of them than 16 , I know more with 10s because lots of my friends are wildfowlers these days , but I would wager there are more game shots using 16s , I personally know of three other people that use them in addition to myself.

 

A quick check on guntrader finds 9 pages of 16s for sale compared to 3 pages of 10s which would back my assumption there are more 16 gauge users.

 

Despite that George would still do better dropping the 16 and loading 10 gauge because as things stand he would pretty much have the market to himself , where loading 16 he will be up against the big boys --------------- So also consider why do the big boys cater for 16 gauge users and not 10 gauge

Edited November 27, 2015 by fenboy

[neutron619]

I believe you're wrong on a couple of counts.

Firstly the Gamebore Rhinos were 49 gm and were purported to have a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps.

Secondly, tight chokes are fine with BB steel. I don't know where your information comes from.

 

I'll take your points in reverse order if I may. Herefollows the current CIP regulations for 10 gauge guns from CIP via BASC, through whom I requested the information:

 

Under CIP, a 10 bore, 89mm chambered gun is “High Performance”. This means that it has been proved to 1,320bar, and is capable of firing 3½in (or less) HP steel cartridges. In turn, the cartridges should not exceed 1,050bar service pressure, 440m/s (1,440fps) velocity, or a momentum of 19Ns (i.e. at the max 440m/s velocity, the load should not exceed 43g). These limits are similar to those for a 12/89 gun except the velocity is marginally higher. While for both guns a pellet size of 4.0mm or larger (roughly BB or larger) limits the choke to be used – in the 12 bore no more than half choke whereas in the 10 bore, it’s less than half choke.

 

Regarding the first point, they were 48g and according to Gamebore's advertisements they did indeed have an MV of 1400fps. The source who advised me of the current CIP regulations on 10 gauge guns had this to say about them:

 

Concerning GB’s 48g Rhino load – the 1400fps velocity should be the CIP-specified 2.5m velocity. That being so then, indeed, its momentum does appear to exceed the 19Ns. This is not unknown among cartridge loaders…… So, you might like to raise it with them and see their response (I would be interested too) or I could mention it to the Proof House. BPH has quite a difficult job of policing the – still voluntary – CIP cartridge specifications and does rely somewhat on incoming reports, which it normally follows up (a quiet word etc….). The other point to bear in mind, which BPH itself emphasises, is that somebody using a gun/cartridge combination outside CIP guidelines risks giving his insurance company a great excuse for rejecting any subsequent claim for damage if something went wrong in the field.

 

I cannot comment as to the reasons for the withdrawl of the Rhino 10 gauge load and I accept that the reason for it's discontinuance could be as innocent as there not being no market to support continuing to produce it. However, it wouldn't surprise me if a quiet word of the kind described above may have been had and that it may reappear in slightly down-loaded form in future, though I have no evidence for this. I hasten to add however, that I personally took no action concerning that issue and only requested information from BASC with a view to acquiring a 10 gauge gun for use with those cartridges.

Edited November 27, 2015 by neutron619

[motty]

 

I'll take your points in reverse order if I may. Herefollows the current CIP regulations for 10 gauge guns from CIP via BASC, through whom I requested the information:

 

 

Regarding the first point, they were 48g and according to Gamebore's advertisements they did indeed have an MV of 1400fps. The source who advised me of the current CIP regulations on 10 gauge guns had this to say about them:

 

 

I cannot comment as to the reasons for the withdrawl of the Rhino 10 gauge load and I accept that the reason for it's discontinuance could be as innocent as there not being no market to support continuing to produce it. However, I suspect a quiet word of the kind described above may have been had and that it may reappear in slightly down-loaded form in future, though I have no evidence for this. I hasten to add however, that I personally took no action concerning that issue and only requested information from BASC with a view to acquiring a 10 gauge gun for use with those cartridges.

 

That is quite interesting. Am I correct in thinking that loading to cip spec is voluntary? I think the cip 'rules' are outdated anyway.

I still think the max choke for steel (perceived wisdom), is a load of bull.

Would you suggest I stop using my 1550fps steel BB loads through my super full choked 10?

[neutron619]

That is quite interesting. Am I correct in thinking that loading to cip spec is voluntary? I think the cip 'rules' are outdated anyway.

I still think the max choke for steel (perceived wisdom), is a load of bull.

Would you suggest I stop using my 1550fps steel BB loads through my super full choked 10?

 

CIP Specs: apparently so.

 

Max choke: I have no comment.

 

Those cartridges, that gun: you are free to take any risk you deem worthwhile in the pursuit of your quarry - you are your own person. All I can do is judge the consequences from afar, in either the positive or negative direction, should they occur.

Edited November 27, 2015 by neutron619

[Pushandpull]

Don't discourage George. He may even eventually provide non-toxic loads in the prince of lightweight wildfowling cartridges, the magnum (3") 16 bore.

They do exist - I nearly bought one once made by Greener but have never regretted having second thoughts.

 

 

 

.

[rjimmer]

"While for both guns a pellet size of 4.0mm or larger (roughly BB or larger) limits the choke to be used – in the 12 bore no more than half choke whereas in the 10 bore, it’s less than half choke."..... So there is no need to worry about tight chokes unless the pellets are 'roughly BB or larger'. I'm putting 42grms of 1's through a 10-bore with a muzzle of .715", smaller than a 12-bore.

Edited November 28, 2015 by rjimmer

[propercartridges]

ok everybody thanks for your in put saying the way I look at things that the 10 bore should be better job now for a new post looking for the best hand loading machine cheers george

[TIGHTCHOKE]

"While for both guns a pellet size of 4.0mm or larger (roughly BB or larger) limits the choke to be used – in the 12 bore no more than half choke whereas in the 10 bore, it’s less than half choke."..... So there is no need to worry about tight chokes unless the pellets are 'roughly BB or larger'. I'm putting 42grms of 1's through a 10-bore with a muzzle of .715", smaller than a 12-bore.

 

I would love to see a pattern plate picture of that load at a good range!

[fenboy]

"While for both guns a pellet size of 4.0mm or larger (roughly BB or larger) limits the choke to be used – in the 12 bore no more than half choke whereas in the 10 bore, it’s less than half choke."..... So there is no need to worry about tight chokes unless the pellets are 'roughly BB or larger'. I'm putting 42grms of 1's through a 10-bore with a muzzle of .715", smaller than a 12-bore.

Nothing limits the choke to half in a 12 gauge other than the shooters mind , I use a tighter choke as do almost all the other fowlers I shoot with , and we are not buying a new gun every trip !

[Farma Geddon]

i'm with fenboy on this ,you would need to get a speed of at least 1550 -1600 fps using large steel shot (10 g is a goose gun after all and I know a lot use them for ducks ). .there's alot of 10 s out there that don't get used because guys carn't get the cartridges they want without paying daft money or they have to load their own ! and the reloading route is also proplematic with powders for steel drying up and then having to work out a new load using substitute powders .

also in this day and age young guys are pushed for time what with work and looking after their famlies they don't have time for reloading or traveling about trying to source cartrides ! so if you could come up with a good cartridge in none toxic at a fair price then i'm sure guys would dust down their Mighty Tens and get them out on the marsh again .

DD .

I really wish you speed freaks would stop going on about ridiculous and unnecessary velocities with steel.

All you do is reduce the payload for people who want to buy proper wildfowling loads.

[fenboy]

I really wish you speed freaks would stop going on about ridiculous and unnecessary velocities with steel.

All you do is reduce the payload for people who want to buy proper wildfowling loads.

 

Yes but speed kills , they told me that the other month when I was doing the naughty course

[Farma Geddon]

 

Yes but speed kills , they told me that the other month when I was doing the naughty course

And the pellet you use has plenty of energy at 30 mph.

[fenboy]

And the pellet you use has plenty of energy at 30 mph.

 

Yes and apparently too much energy at 33mph !

[rjimmer]

Nothing limits the choke to half in a 12 gauge other than the shooters mind , I use a tighter choke as do almost all the other fowlers I shoot with , and we are not buying a new gun every trip !

If you don't use shot larger than BB, that confirms what has been posted above.

[rjimmer]

 

I would love to see a pattern plate picture of that load at a good range!

I've never fired at a pattern plate in my life, but Motty says his is even tighter, if his Super Choke is the .705" that Terror Choke describes. I would point out that I am using 12-bore cartridges with Gauge Mates, so there could be some loss of pressure around the wad. When I run out of Gamebore mammoth at the right price, I'll start reloading Bismuth with fibre wads. That's why I got the ten, but then I found Gauge Mates.

 

A few links that may be of interest:

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/threads/10-gauge-t-shot-patterns.855183/

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/threads/10-gauge-terror-tube-results.225349/

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/threads/720-terror-choke.283855/

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/threads/10-gauge-terror-choke.359190/

Edited November 28, 2015 by rjimmer