20 bore cartridges for pigeon

[fenboy]

 

Difficult, as I shoot #5's mostly, as implied repeatedly above. Do try to keep up old chap.

 

Oh - and I'll be recording "learn to shoot steel properly" in the annals of the Flat Earth Society - quite a spectacular comment with your implication that shooting steel is somehow different to shooting lead. Crikey I'm ******* myself laughing. Presumably with steel I have to aim 5 degrees to the left and say the magic code word for it to work?

 

Have a nice day.

Clearly if you think they both shoot the same you are clueless , as your results with it suggest .

It matters not though as your opinion is as meaningless as you think others is , for my part I will continue to listen to the opinion of people like stevo and motty who can back it up with results rather than someone who thinks he knows it all while shooting nothing a true keyboard warrior .

 

Have a nice day

Spot on.

 

I am excited to go out tomorrow with my 32g 8's (gamebores new pigeon specials) and shoot something. I now know it's ok and hope to knock a few true 60 yarders down(good at range guessing me). After all, only vermin and I can spend the extra couple of quid saved on beers afterwards.

 

Of course, the other way we could prove the physics argument is to hold a shotguns at dawn duel- you lot can pick an ounce of 71/2's or 8's in English or Italian or German for all it matters. I'll start with my 36gram 4's that I use for exceptional pheasant and work down to my standard load (after all, using the right tool for the job means changing to suit the conditions) We'll start 100 yards apart and fire a shot at each other moving steadily closer- I wonder who says ouch first?

I would not be me , as I am not daft enough to suggest shooting at people on a open forum .

[neutron619]

We'll start 100 yards apart and fire a shot at each other moving steadily closer- I wonder who says ouch first?

 

***** - I'm game, provided I can be on your side, shooting #4s.

 

Oh - and for fenboy's benefit, the above is clearly a joke, in response to the joke which provoked it.

 

"Oh Lord, I beseech thee, save me from the pedants and Flat-Earthers who vex and confound me..."

 

(Yup - another joke.)

Edited January 1, 2016 by neutron619

[wj939]

Look at it another way then, and for what it's worth, I am genuinely intrigued to see who thinks what here, so imagine the scenario:

 

You have 5 pigeons on perches a measured 20,30,40,50 and 60 yards away, you have one shot at each using your ounce clay loads, can you confidently state you'll kill out right all five consistently?

 

My guess is the first two yes, maybe the 3rd on your day but the 4th and 5th, more often than not would be winged? Maybe hard enough to drop and be dispatched, maybe not.

[sitsinhedges]

Before it was hijacked this thread was started to ask advice about roost shooting pigeons with a 20 gauge. I doubt any of those who are blabbing on about 7.5 shot even own a 20 gauge and even Stevo admits he uses 32grams of 5 in his 12 for this type of shooting so instead of just getting more and more bent out of shape can we get back to the original question?

 

In my 20 gauge I use 27grams of hard 6 shot going at a measured MV of 1300 feet per second thru a 1/4 and 1/2 choke combination shooting maybe 10 yards above the canopy in established deciduous woodland and I find they knock birds down well and I never notice any excessive recoil though I'm probably concentrating on the bird rather than my shoulder.

 

I also use 30gram of 5 shot going at a MV of 1050 feet per second thru my moderated 20 gauge. Due to the weight of this gun it's much harder to get those snap shots that a swirling pigeon up there present but despite the slower speed I have had some outstanding, some might say lucky, shots using this cartridge that have left me thinking 'just wow'. I believe this gun is quite tightly choked.

 

What are you using in your 20 gauge for roost shooting?

[Guest stevo]

i have made no excuse and use what ever shell is fit for purpose , but over decoys at a range of 35-40 with the odd 45 yrd shot 7.5 ( engish 7's ) will do everything i ask of them .

Edited January 1, 2016 by stevo

[Guest stevo]

 

stevo,

 

You're not wasting your breath, in spite of what fenboy says - you've presented evidence for me to look at and I've looked at it.

 

I've got two questions in response:

1. How many missed, apparently missed or winged birds did you edit out of your 2½ hours on maize to get to the 9:09 of video you posted?
2. Can you be sure, if you were using such a wide selection of cartridges, that any of the 40-50 yard birds were actually shot with the steel #7½ cartridges?

The trouble is, you've already answered question #2 by saying that you couldn't tell the difference, so you obviously don't know. I couldn't tell the difference either, for what it's worth, though I wasn't there, didn't do the shooting and don't know what's been removed to create the highlights video you've posted. That means that nothing of use can be proved by the video, though again, there were some good shots in there.

 

I'm still looking for a much more scientific proof (or at least some well-constructed evidence) that says you can consistently shoot 50 yard birds with #7½ and not have them come down flapping. I haven't seen it yet.

 

If we haven't got evidence, all we've got is experience.

 

For example: I have some experience of using #5 game loads in both lead and steel in late November last year. I wanted to use up the steel cartridges (Gamebore Super Steel 32g #5) to clear some space on my cartridge shelf. I shot several days, half and half, between lead and steel cartridges, from the same position under the same flight lines. The lead-shot birds came down dead, with a couple of exceptions. At one point, I even shot 4 for 3 cartridges with the lead ones. Every one of the nine birds shot with steel came down flapping. What did I learn? Don't use steel #5's at 40+ yard ranges when decoying pigeons - they don't kill reliably - or at least, not from my gun.

 

Or take the days I spent crow shooting on a farm just outside of Cambridge last June and July. I and a handful of others cleared about 150 crows off a cattle farm over the course of a few weekends, with some quite respectable bags. The other 200 birds got the picture after a few visits and left. To my shame, I used up a box of Gamebore Velocity in - yup, you guessed it - #7½ as well as my normal 32g #5 game load (Eley VIP or Hi Flyer). Could I tell the difference? You betcha. It doesn't make me feel good to have to despatch a wounded crow, shot at 30 yards, with the front half of it's head blown away - yet still flapping and cawing grumpily at me - because it got a direct hit with a cartridge loaded with insufficiently large shot to push at least one pellet through it's chest cavity and cause a humane kill. (Edit: in case you're wondering, it was hit all over - just not hard enough.) Funnily enough, I didn't have any of the same problems with Eleys.

 

What does all that mean? Answer: absolutely **** all. It's not evidence, it's experience (or more appropriately, anecdote). It doesn't reliably prove anything, except that what I'm arguing has a basis in the experience I've had. Think you've had more experience? Well maybe you have. You might have had more luck too - can you measure either or tell me that one kind is more valuable than another? No. In fact, the ​only​ argument that I can make about my experience, which you can't about yours, is that mine is more easily explained in physical terms. That's not to say there isn't an explanation for your assertion that #7½'s kill pigeons better than anything else, but it isn't obvious to me or the majority here, so far as I can tell.

 

Finally, here's the one point I will partly concede. You lot are probably better shots than me. I can therefore understand that you probably get away with using inappropriate and what I view as inhumane cartridges more easily than someone who is less skilled. I still bet you get a lot of winged birds that you keep quiet about and I still don't accept that it's right, even if you are skilled, to use such cartridges. For me, being humane / a moral hunter, is demonstrated both in achieving clean kills in the field and in the intention shown by one's choice of kit.

 

My view is best explained like this: it's possible to kill deer with a .22LR or half an ounce of #6 shot and to do so instantly, if you're sufficiently skilled and very, very lucky, but it isn't humane because it relies too much on luck when more appropriate tools are easily available if required. Similarly, in response to the live game and clay loads argument, it's impossible to deny that there are more appropriate tools available than 28g of #7½ hard "clay type" shot and they therefore ought to be used.

 

The evidence simply isn't there to argue that #7½ is the better choice and if it comes down to experience, what's your 200 years combined against the 5 years each of the 10000 of us here who shoot pigeons with #6's?. You can argue it's not about cost, or that clay shells actually are the best tool for the job (there are still no 1-2% antimony "soft lead" #7½ shells for game anywhere - if you genuinely believe they're the best then put your money where your mouth is and get someone to load some for you) but ultimately it comes down to morality and inconvenience. You lot weigh up the moral cost of using something which isn't the most appropriate tool for the job against the inconvenience of cost (and, no doubt, of getting off of your high towers) and choose the side that isn't morality. That in itself isn't a problem - there are moral people and less moral people - but don't be surprised when the rest of us judge you for it.

hmmm well I don't miss many , only because I have enough experience to know weather or not to lift my gun to it , however its very easy for me to sit here and expect you to except that is the case , but I'm more that willing to meet you at your fav clay ground and for you to evaluate my shooting abilities , or spend a day out in the field with you , you never know with my 35 yrs plus pigeon shooting you might learn a trick or too , that said I'm more than willing to learn a thing or too from your good self .

Edited January 1, 2016 by stevo

[NorfolkAYA]

Before it was hijacked this thread was started to ask advice about roost shooting pigeons with a 20 gauge. I doubt any of those who are blabbing on about 7.5 shot even own a 20 gauge and even Stevo admits he uses 32grams of 5 in his 12 for this type of shooting so instead of just getting more and more bent out of shape can we get back to the original question?

 

In my 20 gauge I use 27grams of hard 6 shot going at a measured MV of 1300 feet per second thru a 1/4 and 1/2 choke combination shooting maybe 10 yards above the canopy in established deciduous woodland and I find they knock birds down well and I never notice any excessive recoil though I'm probably concentrating on the bird rather than my shoulder.

 

I also use 30gram of 5 shot going at a MV of 1050 feet per second thru my moderated 20 gauge. Due to the weight of this gun it's much harder to get those snap shots that a swirling pigeon up there present but despite the slower speed I have had some outstanding, some might say lucky, shots using this cartridge that have left me thinking 'just wow'. I believe this gun is quite tightly choked.

 

What are you using in your 20 gauge for roost shooting?

 

24gm 6's 👍

[motty]

My, this is fun!

For my part, I have never said that an ounce of 7.5 was the best choice. It should, however, not be disregarded as a good choice for all round pigeon shooting.

About 10 years ago I would not have considered using a 'clay' shell on pigeons. 32gm of 6 were what I used all the time. Then I started using an ounce of 7 or 7.5 and my eyes were opened. I have killed many pigeons and crows at over 50 yards with small shot. I have winged some down, too - who doesn't?

 

Mr Neutron, why would you want to use cartridges with soft lead?

 

Respect and morals have been mentioned. Someone tell me, who has the most respect for their quarry, someone who wounds birds with the 'correct' cartridges, or someone who gets clean kills with the 'incorrect' ones?

[Monkey Nuts]

Who cares what other people use to shoot whatever quarry they fancy? Ultimately if that individual is happy that their cartridge decision provides clean kills then why argue?

 

I myself wouldn't decoy large crows with my Hull Superfast clay loads ( 7 1/2 ) even though they throw a good pattern through my gun. I much prefer smacking them dead with 32/34g of 5. Yes the odd one may escape the pattern but honestly it's more down to my shooting if they do! I get comfort in knowing that if they get struck at 20/30/40/50 yards they are coming down dead!

 

As has been said many times in the thread, it's personal preference. Live and let live.

[Dr D]

Everyone should go out and buy 32gr 6s. I use these and kill everything stone dead. So, there you go. I just pull through and BANG!!!! One shot. goodnight. If I need a second barrel, its only because there's a left and right coming up. All this talk of flappers. You must be rubbish shots!

[neutron619]

hmmm well I don't miss many , only because I have enough experience to know weather or not to lift my gun to it , however its very easy for me to sit here and expect you to except that is the case , but I'm more that willing to meet you at your fav clay ground and for you to evaluate my shooting abilities , or spend a day out in the field with you , you never know with my 35 yrs plus pigeon shooting you might learn a trick or too , that said I'm more than willing to learn a thing or too from your good self .

 

stevo,

 

I've no doubt you could teach me much and we could start with how to shoot better. I suspect I could teach you very little that would mean anthing to you, though my grasp of ballistics and the underlying physics is sound if that was of interest. In spite of accusations above, I have never said I was a perfect shot and my argument here has always been about what I think the best kit for pigeon shooting is, not that I am some kind of shooting god. I always try to shoot better and I'm not blind to experience, but I can't ignore the numbers either.

 

On the cartridge choice issue, however, it will be as well to agree to disagree, since I consider it to be a moral point and we all have our particular view.

 

All the best,

 

Adam.

Edited January 1, 2016 by neutron619

[neutron619]

Mr Neutron, why would you want to use cartridges with soft lead?

 

Respect and morals have been mentioned. Someone tell me, who has the most respect for their quarry, someone who wounds birds with the 'correct' cartridges, or someone who gets clean kills with the 'incorrect' ones?

 

Soft lead - i.e. 1-2% antimony as I quoted - and not the 4-5% antimony lead used in clay shells will deform more readily and deposit more of its energy within the body of the quarry, cause more damage and - one hopes - cause the expiry of the quarry to occur more quickly. Consider, if it's within the realm of your experience, the similarity of that situation to the comparison between a rapidly expanding tipped bullet and a monolithic solid bullet in larger game. The monolithic bullet can, because it is overly hard, "pencil through" the game, causing a long wound channel but little damage, which means the quarry takes longer to expire than might have been the case otherwise.

 

Now before you get carried away, I'm not suggesting that this has anything but the most miniscule effect in wing shooting. However, it does entirely illustrate my point and answer your second question rather nicely.

 

My question to myself whenever I pack my bag to go hunting (birds, deer, whatever) is simple - am I doing everything I can to minimise the possibility of suffering in the creatures I intend to kill? If I can answer that question with a resounding "yes", then I'm doing it right. For me, that means that if I know there is the possibility of a shot at a bird 50 or more yards away, that I use a proper game cartridge (i.e. 1-2% Sb lead - the kind you'd find in "game" loads) with enough pellets to give me sufficient pattern at that distance and a shot size large enough to ensure the requisite energy for a clean kill. If I used harder lead (i.e. clay cartridge type hardness), or the wrong shot size, or compromised on any other little detail, the answer to the above question becomes "no" and I don't go hunting (or I adjust).

 

You'll note that none of the above has anything to do with how well or how badly I might shoot.

 

To directly answer your question, someone who wounds birds with the correct cartridges has taken the moral approach, because the one who kills with the wrong cartridge cannot guarantee that until after the shot is taken.

 

We all miss and wound birds - it's unavoidable. Whether or not we hit our target is the one variable in shooting that we can't fully prepare for, no matter how much practice we do. However, we have 100% influence over what gun, cartridge, choke and any other kit we decide to take shooting. We can't legitimately complain that the sun was in our eyes, or that the bird swerved, or that the sound of another shot put us off if the bird comes down wounded and we're standing there shooting at it with an inappropriate cartridge: in that situation the moral responsibility is clearly ours and we can't put it down to the conditions or simple bad luck, even if they played their part - we could have done more to prevent it.

 

A final observation: those of you who do get away with shooting live quarry with clay loads probably have one ace up your sleeve. The higher antimony content of an (inappropriately small) #7½ clay-type pellet probably increases the hardness, and therefore the penetration, just enough for you to get away with it, most of the time. I still maintain it's not the best choice, and therefore not a moral one, but I would be interested to do some real-world penetration tests using dead birds to see if a #7½ pellet of 3-5% antimony content penetrates better than expected? Perhaps we'd find it's as effective as a #7 or #6½ pellet made from 1-2% antimony lead. Perhaps it would be just as marginal as I fear it is? Who knows.

 

Enough on this, I think.

Edited January 1, 2016 by neutron619

[JDog]

Me thinks he doth protest too much.

 

The vitriol and vituperative language in this thread represents a poor start to PW in 2016.

 

Amen.

Edited January 1, 2016 by JDog

[Guest stevo]

 

Soft lead - i.e. 1-2% antimony as I quoted - and not the 4-5% antimony lead used in clay shells will deform more readily and deposit more of its energy within the body of the quarry, cause more damage and - one hopes - cause the expiry of the quarry to occur more quickly. Consider, if it's within the realm of your experience, the similarity of that situation to the comparison between a rapidly expanding tipped bullet and a monolithic solid bullet in larger game. The monolithic bullet can, because it is overly hard, "pencil through" the game, causing a long wound channel but little damage, which means the quarry takes longer to expire than might have been the case otherwise.

 

Now before you get carried away, I'm not suggesting that this has anything but the most miniscule effect in wing shooting. However, it does entirely illustrate my point and answer your second question rather nicely.

 

My question to myself whenever I pack my bag to go hunting (birds, deer, whatever) is simple - am I doing everything I can to minimise the possibility of suffering in the creatures I intend to kill? If I can answer that question with a resounding "yes", then I'm doing it right. For me, that means that if I know there is the possibility of a shot at a bird 50 or more yards away, that I use a proper game cartridge (i.e. 1-2% Sb lead - the kind you'd find in "game" loads) with enough pellets to give me sufficient pattern at that distance and a shot size large enough to ensure the requisite energy for a clean kill. If I used harder lead (i.e. clay cartridge type hardness), or the wrong shot size, or compromised on any other little detail, the answer to the above question becomes "no" and I don't go hunting (or I adjust).

 

You'll note that none of the above has anything to do with how well or how badly I might shoot.

 

To directly answer your question, someone who wounds birds with the correct cartridges has taken the moral approach, because the one who kills with the wrong cartridge cannot guarantee that until after the shot is taken.

 

We all miss and wound birds - it's unavoidable. Whether or not we hit our target is the one variable in shooting that we can't fully prepare for, no matter how much practice we do. However, we have 100% influence over what gun, cartridge, choke and any other kit we decide to take shooting. We can't legitimately complain that the sun was in our eyes, or that the bird swerved, or that the sound of another shot put us off if the bird comes down wounded and we're standing there shooting at it with an inappropriate cartridge: in that situation the moral responsibility is clearly ours and we can't put it down to the conditions or simple bad luck, even if they played their part - we could have done more to prevent it.

 

A final observation: those of you who do get away with shooting live quarry with clay loads probably have one ace up your sleeve. The higher antimony content of an (inappropriately small) #7½ clay-type pellet probably increases the hardness, and therefore the penetration, just enough for you to get away with it, most of the time. I still maintain it's not the best choice, and therefore not a moral one, but I would be interested to do some real-world penetration tests using dead birds to see if a #7½ pellet of 3-5% antimony content penetrates better than expected? Perhaps we'd find it's as effective as a #7 or #6½ pellet made from 1-2% antimony lead. Perhaps it would be just as marginal as I fear it is? Who knows.

 

Enough on this, I think.

I agree with some of what you say however . You keep refuring to 7.5 loads .

I have never said i use the above . The shells were using are an english 7 ( 2.4 MM )

Which have been a long standing pigeon shot the same as 6's even basc recomend 7's for wood pigeon , partridge. And pheasant .

[motty]

I am starting to get a little bored by certain posters. I will be brief.

Could anyone who has seen any of my pigeon videos comment on whether it looks as if the cartridges I am using are fit for purpose.

[fenboy]

I am starting to get a little bored by certain posters. I will be brief.

Could anyone who has seen any of my pigeon videos comment on whether it looks as if the cartridges I am using are fit for purpose.

Errr yes

[Guest stevo]

I am starting to get a little bored by certain posters. I will be brief.

Could anyone who has seen any of my pigeon videos comment on whether it looks as if the cartridges I am using are fit for purpose.

they do a lovely job mucker . a thumbs up from me

[6.5x55SE]

I am starting to get a little bored by certain posters. I will be brief.

Could anyone who has seen any of my pigeon videos comment on whether it looks as if the cartridges I am using are fit for purpose.

Yes they are absolutely RUBBISH you should know better and only use 50 gms of HW13 T shot lol lol.

When I done a serious amount of Pigeon shooting I used a 20ga 7/8 oz of 7 shot Rottwiel Clay mk11 and Winchester AA 220 7 shot.

Keep knocking Em down Motty Happy New Year mate

[sitsinhedges]

I am starting to get a little bored by certain posters. I will be brief.

Could anyone who has seen any of my pigeon videos comment on whether it looks as if the cartridges I am using are fit for purpose.

 

That's quite interesting considering that you are the one who hijacked the thread.

[Zapp]

I think this has had a good airing, and so can now close.