EU In or out

[rodp]

'The money is a small part of it'. Really? I would have thought the money, particularly given all the future gazing is a massive part of it. If you are firmly in the no camp then surely you have calculated that the UK is going to be financially better off. Or at the very least, no worse off?

 

If not then surely you are ignorant and just sticking a finger in the wind?

You don't need every last penny to have a good life, I would willingly swap money for a smaller population, to be able to walk anywhere in such as Birmingham, to not have to detour around ghetto's, to know we are going to be ruled by "us" and not some faceless foreigner, to not have to support some country thousands of miles away just because we're told we have to.

If you think money is the be all and end all that's so sad

[Dr D]

You don't need every last penny to have a good life, I would willingly swap money for a smaller population, to be able to walk anywhere in such as Birmingham, to not have to detour around ghetto's, to know we are going to be uled by "us" and not some faceless foreigner, to not have to support some country thousands of miles away just because we're told we have to.

If you think money is the be all and end all that's so sad

Rodp. I didn't say money is the be all and end all. You did. I asked a question. Since I haven't made my mind up, why don't you just answer it and then I might head towards OUT. But I am afraid your apparently uncalculated view of 'don't panic, we will be OK!' Just doesn't cut it. And whilst I haven't made my mind up, the thought of the whole country being worse off would not enthuse me. Because, I know who would suffer most in that scenario. It wouldn't be Cameron et al. It would me, my children, the poor, the sick, the old. I have no confidence in the bright new tomorrow view, that seems to think the conservatives would engage in some redistribution programme of our national wealth. I want the figures, because whether you want bury your head in sand or not, the fact is money will determine if an OUT is a 'Great Britain' or a basket case.

[rodp]

You can't have figures, there are none. Just because we will be better off out doesn't mean to say the Government will distribute the surplus to the same "causes". Farming subsidies will be cut when out, but the surplus funds left by not supporting the eu may not be distributed in a manner to compensate for the loss. Who knows? You'll certainly not get the truth from either the eu or the Government.

Sometimes you have to just take a chance, you or your children are not going to starve. Go with "out" then steer the country to where it should be by voting at elections.

[kent]

Rodp. I didn't say money is the be all and end all. You did. I asked a question. Since I haven't made my mind up, why don't you just answer it and then I might head towards OUT. But I am afraid your apparently uncalculated view of 'don't panic, we will be OK!' Just doesn't cut it. And whilst I haven't made my mind up, the thought of the whole country being worse off would not enthuse me. Because, I know who would suffer most in that scenario. It wouldn't be Cameron et al. It would me, my children, the poor, the sick, the old. I have no confidence in the bright new tomorrow view, that seems to think the conservatives would engage in some redistribution programme of our national wealth. I want the figures, because whether you want bury your head in sand or not, the fact is money will determine if an OUT is a 'Great Britain' or a basket case.

You know what nobody can guarantee things either way. There is a lot of media manipulation going on and hidden agendas. Why has Dave got a 7 yr deal, is it maybe we will be fully fedralised after that and there aint nothing we can do about it? Who knows, well if there are people and I think that is the case they aint saying

 

If you take away peoples say - we will get this via numbers " three wolves and one lamb voting on what to eat for lunch" you will as history shows get a fight " a well armed lamb who decides to contest the issue"

 

IN or OUT there are no guarantees issued one must vote with their heart and gut. The fact we have stirling, Iceland has done just fine and the EU has been getting more a political farce day by day with immigration and crime, failure to account for different cultures and has just been shown the presence of the NHS and our out of control Benefit system in the UK.

 

Think on the nation once voted for a common market, we did not vote for a fedralised Europe which is what is being forced upon us. In fact we fought until 1945 against the last guy who tried it, the only difference is he tried by the gun and failed by the gun. This time they are using guile so we have to give a clear message that we aint having non of it

 

I want to live in a working democracy were we can remove our leaders by the ballot box if we dont like them in our own nation and our nation is governed by our people not the French, Greek, Italian, German people Etc etc. . Presently we are being controlled in our every day economics and law by other nations!

 

There is bound to be some period of adjustment but I want our nation to manage that not to be brought down to the level of others.

[Dr D]

You can't have figures, there are none. Just because we will be better off out doesn't mean to say the Government will distribute the surplus to the same "causes". Farming subsidies will be cut when out, but the surplus funds left by not supporting the eu may not be distributed in a manner to compensate for the loss. Who knows? You'll certainly not get the truth from either the eu or the Government.

Sometimes you have to just take a chance, you or your children are not going to starve. Go with "out" then steer the country to where it should be by voting at elections.

And that's why, if the OUT camp doesn't start making the financial case clearly I reckon many voters will wobble at the ballot box and the UK will end up staying in. It will be Scotland all over again. The fact is the IN camp only need to stick to the line of 'better the devil you know'. After all the governing party, voted in by the people are called 'Conservative' for a reason. The people are generally conservative, and someone who is conservative isn't to fond of radical change. Edited February 21, 2016 by Dr D

[FalconFN]

You don't need every last penny to have a good life, I would willingly swap money for a smaller population, to be able to walk anywhere in such as Birmingham, to not have to detour around ghetto's, to know we are going to be ruled by "us" and not some faceless foreigner, to not have to support some country thousands of miles away just because we're told we have to.

If you think money is the be all and end all that's so sad

But rodp, what if being IN is giving your grandkids the best future, have you considered that? The arguments on both sides are largely conjecture based on fear and hope as no hard facts exist. What we are going to be voting on has nothing to do with ghettos in Birmingham or by who sets the underlying framework of our trade, environmental and employment law, (foreigners have faces too by the way) as none if these things will actually change whether we are in or out as geopolitics and globalisation ultimately rule all of us. We are voting on whether we are to be a working part of a large, stable, peaceful and prosperous community of nations or to be an silent partner in the same community. I think most people will vote with their gut - strength in numbers or strength in diversity.

 

Both ways are viable, but which is least bad is ultimately unknowable.

[manthing]

Out.

[rodp]

But rodp, what if being IN is giving your grandkids the best future, have you considered that? The arguments on both sides are largely conjecture based on fear and hope as no hard facts exist. What we are going to be voting on has nothing to do with ghettos in Birmingham or by who sets the underlying framework of our trade, environmental and employment law, (foreigners have faces too by the way) as none if these things will actually change whether we are in or out as geopolitics and globalisation ultimately rule all of us. We are voting on whether we are to be a working part of a large, stable, peaceful and prosperous community of nations or to be an silent partner in the same community. I think most people will vote with their gut - strength in numbers or strength in diversity.

 

Both ways are viable, but which is least bad is ultimately unknowable.

More or less what I'm saying, apart from the ghettos. You know and I know immigration is going to get worse if we stay in, we're going to get swamped with a people that neither want to integrate or abide by our laws. That's NOT what I want for future generations !

[FalconFN]

I want to live in a working democracy were we can remove our leaders by the ballot box if we dont like them in our own nation and our nation is governed by our people not the French, Greek, Italian, German people Etc etc. . Presently we are being controlled in our every day economics and law by other nations!

I completely understand what you are saying but to be fair (and a bit pedantic) we have never voted in a leader, we only get to vote for one local mp that represents us at national level in parliament, the EU commission is exactly that too, but one step further removed, where one person (our Dave) represents us at a national level. The only difference is in scale and, as with national parliament, what us good for one place may not be best for another.

[millrace]

for my childrens future where they can safely walk the street dressed how they like without fear of where they go or how they go about it,my first vote in many years will be for OUT.......

[rodp]

Understand that, but here we vote for someone who SHOULD have our country at heart, and whether they do or not it still directly affects our country. With the eu all the other nations can deliberately sideline us so we effectively get no vote, we can be, and have been, cut out of any say on any matter that directly affects us.

Look at all the rumpus about sending benefits abroad, for heavens sake it's OUR money and they're saying we HAVE to pay it. That's not on, Cameron needs to grow some.

for my childrens future where they can safely walk the street dressed how they like without fear of where they go or how they go about it,my first vote in many years will be for OUT.......

This, better to be a poor freeman than a wealthy servant !

[kent]

I live in the Ribble Valley. Most hate Nigel Evans and his goings on, We vote for the party though

[kent]

More or less what I'm saying, apart from the ghettos. You know and I know immigration is going to get worse if we stay in, we're going to get swamped with a people that neither want to integrate or abide by our laws. That's NOT what I want for future generations !

OUR LAWS? that's the biggest part of this. We cannot make our own laws, that's why we had to plead with Brussels and the deal is only for 7 years - ITS A BRIBE TO FOOL US INTO THINKING WE HAVE A SAY - ITS LIMITED TO BEYOND THE POINT OF US HAVING WORTHWHILE SAY WHEN IT FINISHES

[yod dropper]

If you know anything about the fund manager Neil Woodford this is worth a look.

 

"Star fund manager Neil Woodford has thrown his two cents into the EU referendum debate, saying economic arguments about whether the UK should remain in the 28-member bloc are "bogus".

 

HEREhttp://www.cityam.com/234885/eu-referendum-fund-manager-neil-woodford-says-economic-arguments-for-brexit-are-bogus-ahead-of-eu-council-summit

Edited February 21, 2016 by yod dropper

[yod dropper]

On sovereignty, 'the highest court in the land' is in fact in Brussels.

 

I don't think that's right.

[poontang]

We are voting on whether we are to be a working part of a large, stable, peaceful and prosperous community of nations or to be an silent partner in the same community.

 

 

 

I have to take issue with what you're saying here.

 

The Eu is fairly large, I'll grant you that, but it's incredibly unstable at the moment, and has been for some time. The failing Euro, the problems with Greece, the collapsing Shengen area, the disastrous immigration policy, the rise of Eurosceptic parties across the continent, huge unemployment across the eastern and western areas of the bloc are all indications of the projects demise. Add to that the rapid decline in the Eu's economy, the impending accession of Turkey and you'd have to be either blind or mad to want to be tied to such a behemoth.

 

The EU, like the Soviet Union before it, is now beginning to realise that it's impossible to unite so many peoples with different cultures, aspirations and histories, and like the Soviet Union it will fail. It simply cannot succeed as it is.

[mick miller]

A surprisingly balanced evaluation of Brexit here: http://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/feb/20/brexit-economy-eu-europe

 

It's long been no surprise that the Tory establishment and their big business chums are in favour of remaining in the EU.

[Dr D]

A surprisingly balanced evaluation of Brexit here: http://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/feb/20/brexit-economy-eu-europe

It's long been no surprise that the Tory establishment and their big business chums are in favour of remaining in the EU.

Very informative.thanks for sharing that.

[Dr D]

Very informative.thanks for sharing that.

for me, if this was the only economic analysis I relied upon it would be one tick off the list towards voting OUT.

[grrclark]

There will not be any smoking guns or black & white answers for the IN/OUT vote, people will have to make their own decisions based on what is important to them.

 

The campaign will be punctuated by fear and promise in equal measure and both will be based on speculation and hellish little else.

 

The question is really whether we believe the UK will be better placed to enjoy continued prosperity as part of a bigger group or if standing alone.

 

In the case of the EU I do think there are benefits of being part of a wider group, but the biggest drawback of the EU for me is that in order to make it a union then there has to be parity, but we are not all equal, and that means in order for the countries at the bottom to step forward the ones at the top have to step backwards. It is finding the common denominator and for the UK I believe that means sacrifice.

 

Increasingly I believe that if we remain part of the EU then we will degrade our abilities, we become limited in what we can do and achieve because we are constrained by the mass of the rest of the EU. I think we are already showing signs of losing our hunger and drive, we are increasingly happy to settle and not strive forward.

 

The UK has always been innovative and entrepreneurial, we have always contributed to a much greater level than our size might suggest we should.

 

We have massive global influence and I believe the most valuable global 'brand' of any country.

 

The profile of the world is changing, the emerging single economies of India, Brazil, China, Indonesia, etc and the collective economies of Africa and South America have massively greater scope for expansion than the mature economies of Western Europe and North America, that is where the focus of wealth development will be.

 

I believe that the UK with its brand, reputation and influence can be a massive part of that global change and I believe we can do that more effectively independently than having to carry the mass of the EU along with it.

 

The UK has sufficient critical mass to take that step, we are a massive economy in our own right.

 

We are no longer focussed on slow moving, high cost, low agility and localised heavy industry, our expertise is in creative and innovative markets, research and development, financial services, advanced technological development, business excellence, pharmaceuticals, automated agriculture, etc and these are the assets and attributes needed for the emerging economies around the world.

 

I believe that the UK unburdened with EU bureaucracy can be much more agile to take advantage of new global opportunity as well as continuing to do what we do now.

[KFC]

The idea of a common level playing was an admirable aspiration that has failed and will always be unworkable.

As for all the economic arguments, well, without audited accounts it's impossible to make any rational decision.

[big bad lindz]

Just a couple of my questions.

 

As a country how much money do we generate each day/week/month/year and where from tax`s, investments, exports, etc ?

how much money do we spend each day/week/month/year just to run the country ?

How much money do we send / give to the EU each day/week/month/year ?

 

and as a country how much money do we borrow from financial institutions and other country's each day/week/month/year in order to keep ahead of the game.

 

If it was simple bookkeeping it would be to easy I suppose. As individuals we all have to make our own budgets to suit our own lifestyles. We make daily decisions about what we can and cant do biased on these budgets but there are times when we reach a cross roads or even a Y junction and we have to make a choice which way to go. Usually before we decide we will have a good look at the options and make the move This vote is one of those times, so we need to look carefully at the bigger picture before putting an X in the box and I for one would like a serious answer to my above questions. It is my intention to get in touch with my local MP and ask him these questions although unfortunately he is SNP and I think I may just get waffle.

 

This is a good topic though and no doubt will go on for a while or variations of it.

[FalconFN]

 

I have to take issue with what you're saying here.

 

The Eu is fairly large, I'll grant you that, but it's incredibly unstable at the moment, and has been for some time. The failing Euro, the problems with Greece, the collapsing Shengen area, the disastrous immigration policy, the rise of Eurosceptic parties across the continent, huge unemployment across the eastern and western areas of the bloc are all indications of the projects demise. Add to that the rapid decline in the Eu's economy, the impending accession of Turkey and you'd have to be either blind or mad to want to be tied to such a behemoth.

 

The EU, like the Soviet Union before it, is now beginning to realise that it's impossible to unite so many peoples with different cultures, aspirations and histories, and like the Soviet Union it will fail. It simply cannot succeed as it is.

I agree, I wasn't judging the overall effectiveness of the EU economy, just looking at the different relationship we could have with it. However, I'm pretty sure the EU economy as a whole is more stable than each separate country working alone, but however empowering that may be to weaker economies it is also equally limiting to larger ones.

[secretagentmole]

Just a couple of my questions.

 

How much money do we send / give to the EU each day/week/month/year ?

 

We give the EU £55,000,000 per day, per year!

 

We get back £22,000,000 per day, per year!

 

We pay £33,000,000 per day, per year to be in the EU.

[dougall]

If you know anything about the fund manager Neil Woodford this is worth a look.

 

"Star fund manager Neil Woodford has thrown his two cents into the EU referendum debate, saying economic arguments about whether the UK should remain in the 28-member bloc are "bogus".

 

HEREhttp://www.cityam.com/234885/eu-referendum-fund-manager-neil-woodford-says-economic-arguments-for-brexit-are-bogus-ahead-of-eu-council-summit

i listened to his webcast,he has had 3 independent Economists prepare papers on the economic impact,and after discussing these findings with them all he concludes 'it is a 0% game ie it is ultimately economically neutral.In fact in near term an out vote would weaken the £ and help UK manufacturers/exporters.....Woodford is a probably the best fund manager of this generation,avoided the IT bubble of 1999/2000 and sold out of all banks in 2007....