Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Can someone explain to me: 1. What OP is? 2. How to calculate just enough penertration so we don't over do it. 3. If we do over penertration, how do we work out how much we over penetrates by so it can be corrected, assuming it needs correcting? 4. Could I be wrong in thinking is just another dumb expression like"overkill", I mean just how do you overkill something and just how do you over penetrates something? Help. Edited March 29, 2016 by Underdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Excellent question. I just love it when people weave phrases like I use soft/heavy .177 pellets for me hunting because they dump all their energy inside the rabbit instead of wasting most of it by making a hole all the way through. You really couldn't make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marki Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 If two rabbits are standing in line, one behind the other, then is OP is a good thing? ;-) I think it has more to do with the deformation of the pellet, some seem to believe that they MUST squash and transfer all the energy to the quarry. I think markmanship is more important. Penetrating the brain generally works quite well irrespective of the level of penetration. Personally OP is only of significance if you are not fully aware of your surrounding and risk hitting something that you hadn't planned to. Overkill isn't something that matters with air rifles. Overkill, to me, means that you make the quarry inedible, I've yet to shoot anything that cannot be eaten afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 If two rabbits are standing in line, one behind the other, then is OP is a good thing? ;-) I think it has more to do with the deformation of the pellet, some seem to believe that they MUST squash and transfer all the energy to the quarry. I think markmanship is more important. Penetrating the brain generally works quite well irrespective of the level of penetration. Personally OP is only of significance if you are not fully aware of your surrounding and risk hitting something that you hadn't planned to. Overkill isn't something that matters with air rifles. Overkill, to me, means that you make the quarry inedible, I've yet to shoot anything that cannot be eaten afterwards. Surely when something is rendered inedible from being shot it is no deader than dead and simply smashed to bits! No?? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 We need Evo for this haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 We need Evo for this haha.Nah, he don't do questions, just opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 I just see it as the smaller the projectile and the faster it goes the less damage it will do and even thought he animal will most likely die it will probably run/fly on. Obviously headshots are headshots so it isn't an issue and accuracy and depends how accurate you are. With all hunting, the bigger and heavier the projectile the more put down power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 It's been a while since I was accused of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Think what people mean ,Hamster, is that the pellet has gone clean through a Target and still retains a considerable amount of energy as it disappears into the blue yonder...often leaving behind a shocked but not dead animal that could have been "more" dead had the pellet transferred its total energy. I have had the unfortunate experience of this happening too frequently over the past few months spent shooting squirrels and have posted on the subject fairly recently. The Squirrels are all shot at a relatively close range (approx. 20 yards) and a standard pellet ( in my case an AA Field) can be heard clearly striking the steel backstop after passing thru the unfortunate animals head - it was not some stupid theory of mine that made me try heavier pellets but rather the site of several still very alive Squirrels (one still upright and walking) fully conscious but with a visible hole both sides of their head. I have settled on Baracuda Hunter Extreme for my particular problem as these seem to work well, but I should add that whilst out for pigeons a couple of weeks ago I came across a Squirrel at a good 35 yards and dropped him out of the tree stone dead with my usual AA Field - so if over penetration is not my problem , what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Think what people mean ,Hamster, is that the pellet has gone clean through a Target and still retains a considerable amount of energy as it disappears into the blue yonder...often leaving behind a shocked but not dead animal that could have been "more" dead had the pellet transferred its total energy. I have had the unfortunate experience of this happening too frequently over the past few months spent shooting squirrels and have posted on the subject fairly recently. The Squirrels are all shot at a relatively close range (approx. 20 yards) and a standard pellet ( in my case an AA Field) can be heard clearly striking the steel backstop after passing thru the unfortunate animals head - it was not some stupid theory of mine that made me try heavier pellets but rather the site of several still very alive Squirrels (one still upright and walking) fully conscious but with a visible hole both sides of their head. I have settled on Baracuda Hunter Extreme for my particular problem as these seem to work well, but I should add that whilst out for pigeons a couple of weeks ago I came across a Squirrel at a good 35 yards and dropped him out of the tree stone dead with my usual AA Field - so if over penetration is not my problem , what is? Then by that logic are we to say that an air rifle that produces say 7 ft lbs which won't therefore go all the way through a squirrel's head is preferable ? In air gun terms animals are killed by the destructive forces of the wound channel, the greater the length of the hole, the more chance vitals are hit. One reason I prefer .22 for hunting is that despite the fact they too will more often than not go straight through, they leave a bigger hole and by definition will have impacted harder to start with. PS. I have yet to see an air gun pellet either .177 or .22 having deformed to any degree unless it has hit solid bone. Edited March 28, 2016 by Hamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasher Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 I think you can just about forget all about imparted energy when talking about normal air guns, though I couldn't say at what power it may have an affect above 30ftlb. People often try to compare RF or CF gun ballistics with that of an airgun but forget what happens to these bullets on impact, hunting CF and RF bullets due to their construction and speed are designed to expand or fragment which simply doesn't happen with airgun pellets under normal circumstances. There have been tests in the past where hollow point pellets fired at 12ftlb are only shown to expand considerably at less than 10yrds in .22. I have recovered .22 diablo pellets having been propelled at 30ftlb that have pasted through a rabbit's head at 35m and shown hardly and deformation, this would change if substantial bone were struck but I don't rely on these style of shoulder or chest shots, the pellets would still remain as one lump with still little substantial increase in surface area. There must be a speed at which some form of hydrostatic shock would occur, think of the large bruised area created by a CF on a deer carcass when shoulder shot, but I don't believe this happens at "normal" airgun speeds. Airgun shots can only be relied on if specific body organs are targeted. Because of the relatively low power of airguns and the large amount of power drop off over the shot ranges i.e. say 5-45yds it is difficult to do anything about over penetration at lower ranges but still maintaining enough power at the longer shot distances. The only way to prevent over penetration would be to have a power adjuster on the gun that would have to be adjusted for every distance and every thickness of target!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 It's been a while since I was accused of it. Haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 JDog - does the J stand for Justin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 UD knows nothing about over penetration ,, its because he has spent to much time out with his springer and misses AS HE SAID ,,, :lol: you have to hit things to see what happens, he should be a comedian and have his own show just proves the point he doesn,t know what the hell he is talking about because he has had to start a topic asking about the subject yet tries to drag people into his pathetic childish hungover rants,, marbles lost and boredom spring to mind JDog - does the J stand for Justin? :lol: did you have to,,,, dog is soaked in tea ,, brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 As long as he's not Justin dog :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Not preferable Hamster - but if my S410 is only delivering 7ft/lb of energy as it passes through then a 7ft/lb gun would be EQUAL to mine at the range I am shooting Squirrels. winnie&bezza.....that's a Beastly thing to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winnie&bezza Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Sorry I just thought with all this talk of over penetration on animals, the thread was going down that route :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 UD knows nothing about over penetration ,, its because he has spent to much time out with his springer and misses AS HE SAID ,,, :lol: you have to hit things to see what happens, he should be a comedian and have his own show just proves the point he doesn,t know what the hell he is talking about because he has had to start a topic asking about the subject yet tries to drag people into his pathetic childish hungover rants,, marbles lost and boredom spring to mind :lol: did you have to,,,, dog is soaked in tea ,, brilliant Still not contributing anything useful I see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Think what people mean ,Hamster, is that the pellet has gone clean through a Target and still retains a considerable amount of energy as it disappears into the blue yonder...often leaving behind a shocked but not dead animal that could have been "more" dead had the pellet transferred its total energy. I have had the unfortunate experience of this happening too frequently over the past few months spent shooting squirrels and have posted on the subject fairly recently. The Squirrels are all shot at a relatively close range (approx. 20 yards) and a standard pellet ( in my case an AA Field) can be heard clearly striking the steel backstop after passing thru the unfortunate animals head - it was not some stupid theory of mine that made me try heavier pellets but rather the site of several still very alive Squirrels (one still upright and walking) fully conscious but with a visible hole both sides of their head. I have settled on Baracuda Hunter Extreme for my particular problem as these seem to work well, but I should add that whilst out for pigeons a couple of weeks ago I came across a Squirrel at a good 35 yards and dropped him out of the tree stone dead with my usual AA Field - so if over penetration is not my problem , what is? Shoot squirrels across the chest or shoulders, that kills them with out the risk of missing there tiny brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Over penetration is only a problem when shooting in barns as the pellet passes through it can hole the roof sheets or damage wall sheeting. If your worried about over penetration use a flat head or dum dum pellet. If you shoot into the chest cavity of your quarry there is plenty for the pellet to give up its energy into like ribs spine breast bone and internal organs. I have found plenty of .22 that have gone straight through so it's not just down to caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Still not contributing anything useful I see! nope, as I find it a total waste of time trying to explain something to someone who has made it clear they don't understand , hitting a brick wall as they say, UD I know your not exactly thick ( although some of your posts do portray you are ) but imo you know exactly what myself and others where trying to say, also it was clearly stated and I will quote again what I wrote " the only problem with fac air in .177 is over penetration at shorter distances " please note "shorter distances" just to make things a bit more simple so it might sink in I will quote what I said again " the only problem with fac air in .177 is over penetration at shorter distances " . can you see what I have written . can you understand what I have written to me and others it is obvious you cant ,so I do not feel the need to explain myself because if after all your years ( as you say ) of shooting you don't understand what I have written then UD back to school you should go, so why sub 12 and 7ftlb is being mentioned is deflecting the original debate which for your reason you decided to start this topic but didn,t put the FULL FACTS oh by the way which YOU failed to mention, just my last pennies worth as I am not qualified to try and explain to someone like yourself have a good day atb Evo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 nope, as I find it a total waste of time trying to explain something to someone who has made it clear they don't understand , hitting a brick wall as they say, UD I know your not exactly thick ( although some of your posts do portray you are ) but imo you know exactly what myself and others where trying to say, also it was clearly stated and I will quote again what I wrote " the only problem with fac air in .177 is over penetration at shorter distances " please note "shorter distances" just to make things a bit more simple so it might sink in I will quote what I said again " the only problem with fac air in .177 is over penetration at shorter distances " . can you see what I have written . can you understand what I have written to me and others it is obvious you cant ,so I do not feel the need to explain myself because if after all your years ( as you say ) of shooting you don't understand what I have written then UD back to school you should go, so why sub 12 and 7ftlb is being mentioned is deflecting the original debate which for your reason you decided to start this topic but didn,t put the FULL FACTS oh by the way which YOU failed to mention, just my last pennies worth as I am not qualified to try and explain to someone like yourself have a good day atb Evo Lol nice squirming. Still a useless post and insulting to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyflier Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 I'll get me popcorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Surely a big pellet that stops inside an animal and so expends all of its energy there is preferable to a smaller one that goes thru creating a smaller wound channel and so is less lethal. What's the problem with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) Can someone explain to me: 1. What OP is? 2. How to calculate just enough penertration so we don't over do it. 3. If we do over penertration, how do we work out how much we over penetrates by so it can be corrected, assuming it needs correcting? 4. Could I be wrong in thinking is just another dumb expression like"overkill", I mean just how do you overkill something and just how do you over penetrates something? Help! Pellet passing through a animal bird etc Right? Edited March 29, 2016 by TONY R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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