keg Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Different situation altogether which has been done to death on here already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Farming a failing Industry? The payment scheme benefits all farmers. Yes of course the more land you have, the more you get but as always, Mr Monbiot picks his argument carefully. Those large farmers still grow a lot of what we need. If the farming industry needs subsidies to stay afloat then it is by definition a failing industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 (edited) Different situation altogether which has been done to death on here already.Different yes but similar in that struggling companies were proped up using public money, I beleive that industry like steel, energy, prisons, NHS etc should be government run as they are at the core of the UK, and if run by a private body leaves us open to many issues and problems, sometimes you get what you pay for and keeping money in the country can't be a bad thing. Edited April 4, 2016 by 12gauge82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Different yes but similar in that struggling companies were proped up using public money, I beleive that industry like steel, energy, prisons, NHS etc should be government run as they are at the core of the UK, and if run by a private body leaves us open to many issues and problems, sometimes you get what you pay for and keeping money in the country can't be a bad thing. I don't disagree that certain key areas should never have been privatised and despite being a huge Maggie fan, never agreed with her on that. Some areas did need a shake up. Whilst they may be similar situations, a run on the banks would have been a catastrophe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 So how long has it been running at a loss of 1 million a day Is it a actual loss or the cost of putting money back int the pension pot Seems there's a few things that we have yet to be told Just my thoughts All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe soapy Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 Those steelworkers will have many millions invested in their pensions, and lots more cash in equity in their houses. Plus they have been getting well above average wages.. Let them invest it all in the steel works on their own behalf. Nothing focuses the work ethic better than when your own cash is at risk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I feel genuinely sorry for the steel workers, but what makes them different to any business that fails? There is no clamour to help a one man business that goes bust - this just on a bigger scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I believe more builders lose their jobs in the crunches than any other group but because most are one man bands, they don't have a united voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 It's not just about jobs though is it, it's more about our capability as a country to make steel. Builders can just finish, put their gear in a container and start again when ready, can't do that with a steel works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armsid Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 has anyone thought if we do not make anything we will end up like greece in debt forever no manufacturing just imports and at the mercy of the suppliers and the country on low wages and high house costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted April 4, 2016 Report Share Posted April 4, 2016 I take your point and agree but what we need to do is change what we make. As someone has already stated, we cannot compete with run of the mill ( no pun intended) that can be made anywhere, we need to specialise or spread into new areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 has anyone thought if we do not make anything we will end up like greece in debt forever no manufacturing just imports and at the mercy of the suppliers and the country on low wages and high house costs I know it seems like we don't make anything as our traditional heavy industries dwindle, but we really do make an awful lot of stuff. Your point is very valid however, our trade deficit is too big and our house prices are far too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 If the farming industry needs subsidies to stay afloat then it is by definition a failing industry. It didn't need any before we had the CAP from our EU friends. The CAP was invented by the French to protect the small scale French agricultural farmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 It didn't need any before we had the CAP from our EU friends. The CAP was invented by the French to protect the small scale French agricultural farmers. That was over forty years ago. A different world altogether. Who is to say that farming would be profitable today without the subsidies? Many livestock farmers are reliant on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 That was over forty years ago. A different world altogether. Who is to say that farming would be profitable today without the subsidies? Many livestock farmers are reliant on them. Yes, but the CAP payments are just our own money coming back to us. We pay some £20bn gross to the EU a year, of which some 40% is used to fund the EU's CAP payments. That's £8bn per annum. UK farmers receive just under £3bn in CAP payments. The other £5bn of our money is used to subsidise other EU state farmers, predominantly the French. We are, in effect subsidising our competitors. If we leave the EU there is absolutely no reason whatsoever we couldn't subsidise the UK's agriculture industry with the same amount, or more. Of course that would mean having a government who were prepared to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 That was over forty years ago. A different world altogether. Who is to say that farming would be profitable today without the subsidies? Many livestock farmers are reliant on them. Er New Zealand is not and they seem to export an awful lot of agricultural produce to the UK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 If we leave the EU there is absolutely no reason whatsoever we couldn't subsidise the UK's agriculture industry with the same amount, or more. Of course that would mean having a government who were prepared to do that. Of course we could and then pay the tariff barrier payments on top to sell to the EU. The EU subsidy limits were set by agreement so that we don't have to have tariff barriers within Europe across all industries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Er New Zealand is not and they seem to export an awful lot of agricultural produce to the UK! And the French supermarkets are also full of New Zealand lamb that costs less then the postage costs to NZ of the equivalent weight. But their farmers aren't ham strung by EU implemented policies designed to protect the environment and they don't have the same tax burdens............. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11117207/New-Zealand-shows-the-UK-how-tax-cuts-can-revive-our-economy.html And of course with any farm product, the efficiency depends quite a lot on the natural environment, cost of wages and weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Of course we could and then pay the tariff barrier payments on top to sell to the EU. The EU subsidy limits were set by agreement so that we don't have to have tariff barriers within Europe across all industries. So we set a tariff on eu imports, what's hard about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Of course we could and then pay the tariff barrier payments on top to sell to the EU. Yeah, but we could offset that with the tariffs we impose on French wine and cheese, not forgetting the German sausage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 Yeah, but we could offset that with the tariffs we impose on French wine and cheese, not forgetting the German sausage! The sausage idea might cause a case of Sour Kraut, and the French would no doubt be cheesed off too, but I think putting tariffs on cars produced in those countries might net a better dividend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 Just another reason to leave. More proof we no longer control our own interests. https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659163/David-Cameron-ADMITS-Brussels-BLOCKED-bid-rescue-UK-steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulnix Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 That was over forty years ago. A different world altogether. Who is to say that farming would be profitable today without the subsidies? Many livestock farmers are reliant on them. They are reliant on them because the supermarkets dropped the price on what they pay as soon as they came in, keeping the margins just above what you would get by growing corn, seems everyone is desperate for the public to have cheap food they forget the people producing it should earn a living as well. Get the supermarket in check and a lot of people would be better off plus most of the stupid rules etc are born from supermarkets wanting to outdo each other on assurance scheme regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted April 8, 2016 Report Share Posted April 8, 2016 They are reliant on them because the supermarkets dropped the price on what they pay as soon as they came in, keeping the margins just above what you would get by growing corn, seems everyone is desperate for the public to have cheap food they forget the people producing it should earn a living as well. Get the supermarket in check and a lot of people would be better off plus most of the stupid rules etc are born from supermarkets wanting to outdo each other on assurance scheme regulations. Agreed. About time the farmers got together and formed co-operatives as they have in other European countries. That way they could better stand up to supermarkets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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