patteren plates any good

[neutron619]

but to patteren before you go out to shoot moving things to me a complete and utter wast of time you dont need alot to tell if you like them 25 to 50 carts and flighting pigeon at different hights and angles that's all you need

 

I've got to disagree with you too George, I'm afraid.

 

For a start, a miss tells you nothing and might actually hide a serious defect with the cartridges that could have been discovered with a pattern plate and a couple of shots.

 

For example - let's say one of your competitors loaded what was actually the worst cartridge in the world. It looks like a cartridge, it's packed with what appears to be lead shot and it goes bang nicely when you fire it - but due to a problem with the shot, none of it actually reaches the target because it's all disintegrated to dust whilst coming out of the barrel. A pattern plate will tell you there's a problem there with one shot. Shooting at live birds though - well - did you just miss, or is it the cartridge? You could use half a slab before you started to think that you weren't just out of form and going through a rough patch.

 

Second, a hit tells you very little either. We all know that not all cartridges perform equally well through the same gun and choke. There are some general trends about what's likely to tighten patterns and loosen them, but there aren't any rules. There's also a degree of personal preference. There are some expert shots who shoot guns so tightly choked that at anything under 40 yards, they might as well be using a rifle. The rest of us tend to like our patterns a bit more open and a pattern plate will tell us that. Hitting a bird won't though - because we don't know if we scored a lucky direct hit with a pattern the size of a dinner plate, or knocked the bird down with one stray pellet in a shot cloud that's 12' across. Ok - the bird is on the floor, but when we've taken our 25-50 shots, do we buy more of the cartridge with which we have to be lucky every time, or another one which behaves in a way more suited to our ability?

 

Third, shooting 20 to 50 birds isn't always practical. For one, they move and particularly away from the sound of gunfire. If you've only got limited time to shoot and live in an area where pigeon food is abundant, it could take 6 months to have 50 opportunities to shoot a bird. Ten cartridges at a few stationary squares of cardboard on the other hand - well that takes about an hour if you're doing it as consistently as possible and a lot less for a rough approximation.

 

Nobody, as far as I'm aware, is arguing that patterning tells you whether the cartridge will kill the birds, but I think a lot of people are making the point that it's a pretty good indicator of whether they will. Given the choice between an indication or not having a clue, I'd be more confident with an indication and certainly more inclined to part with money for 250, 1000, etc. (I'd also be able to avoid buying 1000 of the cartridges with the disintegrating shot in them too.)

[motty]

Neutron - good points, well made.

[propercartridges]

Never really seen the point, except for gun fit.

 

If you pattern your gun with one cartridge, do you do the same every time you use a different batch, a different brand or change your chokes?

 

I think Gordon r hits it on the head now tell me somebody if theres say 300 pellets in the cart and a man says say 50 percent goes into a target that's 150 pellets into a 30 inch circle at 40 yards should that not be good enough but remember its a straight shot and not swinging the shotgun to do it in

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It should be just right!

[propercartridges]

George if your talking about shot string forget about it as a target like crossing clay or a pigeon will only move a few inches between the first and the last pellets reaching it even with a long shot string,

Jim.

 

them blokes want to learn how to shoot jim theres a duck nearly swallowed a wad before it got shot in the back end I wouldn't dare put that video out have not seen a one killed dead also theres more than one person shooting at the same duck as you can see the cases are been ejected to come into the other shooters window

[TONY R]

 

them blokes want to learn how to shoot jim theres a duck nearly swallowed a wad before it got shot in the back end I wouldn't dare put that video out have not seen a one killed dead also theres more than one person shooting at the same duck as you can see the cases are been ejected to come into the other shooters window

George im thinking Jim is just using that video to back up his Coment that from the first to the last pellet its only a few inches and not significant.

 

What you say about just hunting the Loads to work out how good they kill is flawed practice i dont care how you word it, You can get loads which dont look great on paper , but as you look at the plate you can see where if a bird had been in that small area of the overeal pattern it would be dead, but you can not ignore the other areas where it would have got away scott free or more concerninbg gone away badly wounded.

Lets look at jims video and consider the birds were not back ended as such but mearly shot with clumpy **** poor patterns that had voids in them and realy should not be considered practical.

If you shoot a shed full of rounds you will in the end have a rough idea what a given round is capable of.

But is that realy a practical way of going on to work out what a loads doing in a given gun choke combination. ... I DONT THINK IT IS MYSELF.

 

I will go along with the thinking its pellets that kill birds, not pretty patterns on paper, but its not only quicker and cheaper to work out what a patterns like on paper rather than blasting off a flat wounding god knows how many birds and calling that load a BAD UN.

In your defence here, every load and gun will behave or has the potential to behave unexpectedly what good in Alans X2 might be **** in phills Remington , its just how it is, and you are trying to produce a product that works for Cliffs AYA too, you got a tough job there mister ill give you that, but all you can do with your loads is make a compromise load up, something that works in most, Fibre wads are not the eassiest things to get consistent, you cant just stuff the best quality felt wad in and call it sorted, its not that easy you dont need me to tell you that, but really to say field running is all you need over a pattern plate testing session. I just dont agree with you.

[dodeer]

Plastic wads are a thing of the past I think... nearly as game shoots ask for felt wad now days and all the big producers are felt and wool etc.

 

I walk my dog on an area which was a very big drive back in the days of GB Winchesters being a favoured load- 1oz 6.5's, and on that drive guns used a lot of cartridges. The drive ceased In the early to mid 90's and I see many blue plastic wads laying about still.

[TONY R]

Plastic wads are a thing of the past I think... nearly as game shoots ask for felt wad now days and all the big producers are felt and wool etc.

 

I walk my dog on an area which was a very big drive back in the days of GB Winchesters being a favoured load- 1oz 6.5's, and on that drive guns used a lot of cartridges. The drive ceased In the early to mid 90's and I see many blue plastic wads laying about still.

Agree i see this plas wad thing being a big problem to wildfowlers long term, in the environments they hunt in wads in these sorts of areas are an eyesore at the very best, There are card shot cups etc but seldom used in fact i have not seen one for years.

Felt wads are just as good as Plastics with all but the harder non tox shots, Bismuth Copper are fine with Felts, and right down to petterning its only a maylar degradeable replacement they would need to think about and the performance would be eassily as good if not better.

[motty]

I don't see plastic wads as a thing of the past.

[TONY R]

Well they are still here, so your technicaly right, but how long they stay is very much a topic open for debate, and in wildfowling right at the advent of non tox there was a scare they were going cartridge firms started to take it serious enough to invest money in alternative wading card cups were even available, im sure at some point the plas wad thing will rear its head again in wildfowling as it as other sectors of this sport.

[Guest cookoff013]

i have to disagree with you there tony, plaswads revolutionised reloading, plastic is ultra superior to fibre, it produces better pressures better speed and offers better shot protection.

the gas seal is not fire formed in the chamber as with fibre. plastics offer superior everything in every aspect. the only thing it does not offer is environmental consideration.

fibre has multiple problems, such as fragmenting, shot inbedding, moisture absorption, poor pressure profiles and poor speed characteristics. the only thing i can say is if you are clay shooting

and can use plaswads do it. plaswads have had multiple inovations in the past few years...

 

biodegradable

uv degradable

made of maize ecopolymer

designs such as BP mythos steel has come to be developed...

so has the flite control wad

winchester tracker

multimetal

density plastic ranger-tungsten wad

blindside wads

remington excelorater 1700fps wad (2 popchambers)

 

while i do feel this post sounds harsh, the only thing fibre wads have changed in the past 50 years or so is the biowad shotcup, but at around 50p a pop just in wads, its a non starter.

[TONY R]

i have to disagree with you there tony, plaswads revolutionised reloading, plastic is ultra superior to fibre, it produces better pressures better speed and offers better shot protection.

the gas seal is not fire formed in the chamber as with fibre. plastics offer superior everything in every aspect. the only thing it does not offer is environmental consideration.

fibre has multiple problems, such as fragmenting, shot inbedding, moisture absorption, poor pressure profiles and poor speed characteristics. the only thing i can say is if you are clay shooting

and can use plaswads do it. plaswads have had multiple inovations in the past few years...

 

biodegradable

uv degradable

made of maize ecopolymer

designs such as BP mythos steel has come to be developed...

so has the flite control wad

winchester tracker

multimetal

density plastic ranger-tungsten wad

blindside wads

remington excelorater 1700fps wad (2 popchambers)

 

while i do feel this post sounds harsh, the only thing fibre wads have changed in the past 50 years or so is the biowad shotcup, but at around 50p a pop just in wads, its a non starter.

AH! well biodegradable plastic thats will probably survive but the steel non tox wads we are using now are not uv or bio degradable as far as i know.

I agree on the pattern im[provements performance too, but in reality felt wading can be trully awesome, I still look upon the Old Winchester super double X lead loads as the load to base any long range wildfowling loads or game loads on for best performance, and is the main reason i use Bismuth or Copper and formerly ITM to be able to stick with the double Xs wad systems which were besides the wrap Felts wading with card cup seal etc. So felts can work great but you cant just stuff a felt wad on top of the powder bang in the shot and crimp it down exactly. But still felt.

[yickdaz]

I personally don't bother patterning carts,but don't have a problem with anyone who does my gun is fixed choke 1/4 and 3/4 something less to worry about, I just go for a cart that's performs consistenly at the ranges I shoot then tend to stick that particular one, or if I can't get hold of that one brand I have a few others that I know are good in my gun with the chokes in it. if you shoot enough in the field you tend to find which ones you like or don't like

[dodeer]

I don't see plastic wads as a thing of the past.

Wouldn't surprise me if wad and empty cartridges are mentioned on some subsidy payment scheme or something.

 

All I can speak with is my experience and most shoots require felt these days.

 

Incidentally I shoot game in some Central European countries and all their manufacturers seem to be plastic wad only for some reason.

[TONY R]

Wouldn't surprise me if wad and empty cartridges are mentioned on some subsidy payment scheme or something.

 

All I can speak with is my experience and most shoots require felt these days.

 

Incidentally I shoot game in some Central European countries and all their manufacturers seem to be plastic wad only for some reason.

Thats my fear right there, i do think it will come but when ... No idea on that one. ....Eventualy .

[BrowningB525]

Plastic wads are like asbestos. Good at what it is used for. But a menace. They make a mess of the country side. In my opinion, the only place fir plastic wads is dedicated clay grounds.

 

I do use steel though so I am part of the problem.

[6.5x55SE]

AH! well biodegradable plastic thats will probably survive but the steel non tox wads we are using now are not uv or bio degradable as far as i know.

 

 

I have 150 - 200 36grm Steel cartridges i loaded with biodegradable plastic wads which are identical to B&P 35 wads

I believe evogreen do them 👍

[rbrowning2]

As environmental issues grow the non biodegradable plastic wads will become a thing of the past but that may be many years away.

 

I am sure one day the industry will find an economic replacement as the financial reward in being the first to do so will be significant.

 

The uv/photodegradable wads currently available still take a couple of years to break down into bits and need exposure to the sun/atmosphere to do so.

 

Plastic is for clay grounds only when allowed (excepting that steel is the only currently available cheap non-toxic option) other than that we have a duty of care to use fibre do we not?

 

Even if the pattern plate shows that plastic may offered a superior pattern or does it did basc not do a study some years back that showed fibre could be better?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Plastic wads are like asbestos. Good at what it is used for. But a menace. They make a mess of the country side. In my opinion, the only place fir plastic wads is dedicated clay grounds.

 

I do use steel though so I am part of the problem.

 

I think you need to re-consider that statement!

[BrowningB525]

 

I think you need to re-consider that statement!

I never said they were dangerous.

 

Just suggesting that there are wider things to consider.

Edited August 19, 2016 by BrowningB525

[wymberley]

I never said they were dangerous.

 

Just suggesting that there are wider things to consider.

Thought it was a rather good analogy.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I never said they were dangerous.

 

Just suggesting that there are wider things to consider.

 

Your statement could be seen as poorly thought out at least and inflamatory at worst.

[TONY R]

 

Your statement could be seen as inflamatory.

So could yours if you just pick out part of it. :lol:

[BrowningB525]

 

Your statement could be seen as poorly thought out at least and inflamatory at worst.

I'll go with inflammatory.

[wigeon jim]

George im thinking Jim is just using that video to back up his Coment that from the first to the last pellet its only a few inches and not significant

 

 

Thanks Tony that's why I put that video on, And George I know these guys over the pond will never be able to shoot as good as you Mr Pigeon ! Jim.