Coach bolts for gun cabinet

[Jaymo]

Op, the bolts supplied with your cabinet are not up to the job- was it a gdk one? - they are simply bolt headed screws and 10mm rawl plugs. will hold the cab on the wall but will provide little protection to being pried off the wall

 

your options are rawl bolts or chemical fixings.

I think you under/estimate the power of the 'simple bolt and plug', used on the correct material /correctly and I challenge you to pry a cabinet off.

Hell, 1 3/4" versions are used in wall starters to stabilise extension walls etc.

We have a solid 1m sat dish held on with those very bolts and experiencing the Mistral wind each summer I can tell you I think the morter in the chimney would give way before the fixings would.

[HDAV]

Over tighten rawl bolts (shield anchors is the generic term) and they go wrong leaving a big hole! Only option then is resin! Use the supplied as long as the substrate is suitable!

[Lloyd90]

Over tighten rawl bolts (shield anchors is the generic term) and they go wrong leaving a big hole! Only option then is resin! Use the supplied as long as the substrate is suitable!

How do I know if suitable or not ?

 

The wall is an exterior wall going outside onto the side of the house, which is red brick.

 

Thank you for the advice so far gents.

[HDAV]

Drill a hole dude start small if thin plaster then hard brick thunderbolt away if plaster is thick (black ash) and brick soft then plugs as supplied or shield anchor M8 and M8 penny washers

 

Where are you?

[Lloyd90]

Drill a hole dude start small if thin plaster then hard brick thunderbolt away if plaster is thick (black ash) and brick soft then plugs as supplied or shield anchor M8 and M8 penny washers

 

Where are you?

 

I'll get the drill out tomorrow!

 

In Bristol mate.

[silver pigeon69]

You can secure the safe as well as you like to the wall, BUT an experienced burglar, with the right tools, will have the door open in a few minutes.

[kshooter]

If its a modern house with thermal block walls it can be a pain to get a good bite expecially with rawl bolts and as they expand they crumble the wall, I used resin anchors, it's easy to do and tbh if u move they take no more hiding than a drilled and plugged wall, probably have to just cut them back into plaster and fill them mine are at least 6 inches into the wall and completely bonded, and them nuts are very tight too, I look at it if I can't pull them out with a spanner individually the cabinet isn't moving, the duds are also good if u have a good size cabinet I put hooks on the top 2 to hand gun slips on

[Jaymo]

Have in the past removed resin bonded studs- either using the two nut technique and a spanner or if they don't shift then an impact driver will shock them loose

[Westward]

You can secure the safe as well as you like to the wall, BUT an experienced burglar, with the right tools, will have the door open in a few minutes.

Precisely. It only needs the fixings to be strong enough that the FEO can't pull it off the wall.

 

In reality, the average housebreaker has no interest in taking the risk of stealing and disposing of guns which, in the criminal world, aren't worth much money. He/she will serve time if caught with guns, whereas a few cameras/tablets/credit cards etc are worth a lot more ££ and carry virtually no risk of prison time if caught.

 

If a professional criminal wants to steal your guns, he/she will have them, and there's little you can do to prevent it.

[martyn2233]

Frame fixings (the ones used for fitting windows) are your friend in these circumstances.

+1 these http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Choose-Size-Qty-Concrete-Screws-Window-Frame-Fixings-Masonry-Spax-Style-5-5-/171929707071?var=&hash=item2807cf223f%3Am%3Am7oEkHuE27ehIdnzstwczzQ&_trkparms=pageci%253A7b6bac73-a5b0-11e6-882f-74dbd180741d%257Cparentrq%253A43f3ea1a1580a5e295e0baa1ffff86d2%257Ciid%253A2&varId=470836984011

I have used them on my cabinet plus Iv done 100's of windows and conservatory they haven't move

[Lloyd90]

+1 these http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Choose-Size-Qty-Concrete-Screws-Window-Frame-Fixings-Masonry-Spax-Style-5-5-/171929707071?var=&hash=item2807cf223f%3Am%3Am7oEkHuE27ehIdnzstwczzQ&_trkparms=pageci%253A7b6bac73-a5b0-11e6-882f-74dbd180741d%257Cparentrq%253A43f3ea1a1580a5e295e0baa1ffff86d2%257Ciid%253A2&varId=470836984011

I have used them on my cabinet plus Iv done 100's of windows and conservatory they haven't move

Just put those through the holes ? They look a bit thin 😳

[HDAV]

Just put those through the holes ? They look a bit thin 😳

Needs some nice big repair washers M6 probably maybe M5

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p86424?mkwid=s3Z3fpJI3_dm&pcrid=142501343890&pkw=&pmt=&product=86424&gclid=CLjU3K-nmdACFcsW0wodPJQHGA

 

Thunder bolts work well in themalite type block as you drill a smaller hole and they cut into the block and don't split the block like rawl bolts can.

 

Fisher used to do some great sheiks anchors much thinner outer than rawl so smaller hole and less chance of splitting

Edited November 8, 2016 by HDAV

[timps]

Just for information and not to argue with anyone, I have carried out lots of onsite pull out tests on anchor fixings to BS 8539, The plastic/nylon plugs are subject to creep so need a global safety factor of at least 5:1 when testing them making them one of the least secure type of fixings compared to nearly all others out there. Also, the type of plastic or nylon used is a big factor, some offer sod all resistance to the pull-out test due to the material composition of the plug even though they look impressive and the substrate is good concrete.

 

Regards the FEO if he is doing it by the home office guidance (GMP certainly are these days) the recommendations are for expanding bolts, chemical anchors and toggle bolts. I know for a fact if my FEO doesn’t see a bolt head and sees a screw head he will knock it back regardless (happened to a mate).

 

The guidance makes reference to breeze and thermal block walls stating the materials are not particularly suited to normal fixing devices which doesn’t help any argument you have for using screws and plugs due to cracking.

 

If you worry about cracking, then use chemical or toggle bolts, if you want to just make it pass the sharp pull and look at the bolt head test by the FEO then use the ones that came with the cabinet and pull at it hard yourself to make sure they stick. He isn’t going to ask you to unbolt it to see the type of fixing and it has a bolt head, if you want to make it secure as it can be then go for expanding bolts, chemical anchors and toggle bolts.

 

[Canis]

I think you under/estimate the power of the 'simple bolt and plug', used on the correct material /correctly and I challenge you to pry a cabinet off.

Hell, 1 3/4" versions are used in wall starters to stabilise extension walls etc.

We have a solid 1m sat dish held on with those very bolts and experiencing the Mistral wind each summer I can tell you I think the morter in the chimney would gie way before the fixings would.

i would agree that for most static wall mounting purposes plugs and screws are perfectly adequate -that pretty much every radiator in the land is held to the wall with 2 inch size 10 screws and brown rawl plugs and the larger ones weigh 50ish kg perfectly demonstrates that - however the fixings are being specified to stop the cabinet being pried off the wall with a pry bar and items fixed with rawl plugs do pry out of their holes easily!

[Jaymo]

Point taken fellas...

 

But as mentioned, mr opportunist with a crowbar will have difficulty in both prying most cabinets off the wall and is then faced with the pretty impossible task of trying to discreetly wander down the street with a dam great cabinet under their arm ( unless of course they came with a vehicle).

Me! Well I have a lovely cordless angle grinder so would be in your cabinet in a few mins regardless if that's what I was targeting.......

 

So, satisfy your FEO's pull test and other precautions but remember nothing is infallible

[kingo15]

As said if they have broken into your house because of your guns they have come prepared.

The average burglar yes would probably have a quick go. Or may spend more time looking for your keys.

The feo tests on how secure your cabinet is to the wall is a farce. I could quite easily fix my cabinet with 2 1/2 tens and red rawl plugs and he wouldn't move it.

 

You can ony make sure it's secure as best you can

[timps]

I agree there could be countless ways a thief might get in your cabinet rather than pry it from the wall.

 

However If you read the BS7558 which is the British standards for gun cabinets, you will understand their thinking.

It starts off by saying they assume the average potential thief is an opportunist and not a determined criminal specifically seeking to obtain firearms, who in their own words would be difficult to counter effectively by inexpensive means. So, they are not interested in that type of thief as they accept you are never going to stop them without a bank vault.

 

So all they want to know is can it withstand a 5 minute attack from common hand-tools.

 

The tools listed are Club hammer 1.8 kg, Jemmy, Flat cold chisel overall length 200 mm and blade width 25 mm, .

 

If they can get the cabinet off the wall within 5 mins then they can leave with it and take as long as they want to get in. This type of theft has happened hence why they are concerned about it.

 

Here is your problem BS 7558 states the type of bolts acceptable and the plastic friction type are not acceptable. Reason is quite simple mechanical and resin type all give similar performances regardless of manufacturer. Plastic plugs vary widely as I said depending upon the makeup of the plastic or nylon due to manufacturer.

 

You might get a plastic one that could withstand the test from one manufacturer and then use another make and I can guarantee I could remove it with a small flat bladed screw driver in less than a minute.

 

That’s the reason why bolts should be used as you have no idea without a pull-out test how the nylon / plastic plug will behave.

 

The test the FEO does is next to useless but they do in some areas check it’s a bolt so just make sure it’s that if you are not concerned about security. Oh and what ever you use hope the thief doesn't have 6 minutes to spare instead of 5...

Edited November 8, 2016 by timps

[the crowman]

Need to fit a new cabinet and have read on another thread someone recommending coach bolts for the cabinet.

 

These ones came with my cabinet and are about 4" long, the wall is an exterior wall and seems pretty solid. (Will also be inside a cupboard.

 

Do they look up to the job? How do I check what size drill but they'll be as I don't want to mess up the holes.

 

As I have mine in the loft I used the ones that aga man has for the wall and the coach bolt through the joists in the floor of the cabinet.

[Canis]

Point taken fellas...

 

But as mentioned, mr opportunist with a crowbar will have difficulty in both prying most cabinets off the wall and is then faced with the pretty impossible task of trying to discreetly wander down the street with a dam great cabinet under their arm ( unless of course they came with a vehicle).

Me! Well I have a lovely cordless angle grinder so would be in your cabinet in a few mins regardless if that's what I was targeting.......

 

So, satisfy your FEO's pull test and other precautions but remember nothing is infallible

Agreed that nothing is infalible and certainly a cordless angler grinder has all sorts of of "uses" but given that 99% of them are either a cyan blue colour ior A yellow and black colour, (dependant on the owners preference in professional power tools) the chances are if you where the average skag head burglar you would have fenced the angle grinder to pay for a fix or two !

[Gordon R]

Timps - an informative and objective post.